Cost of a DUI => $15k!

[Zanix]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Zanix

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: Whisper
Drinking and driving can be bad, yes. But I'm going to have to say I disagree with the arbitrary BAC limits they use to establish "drunkenness." Said disagreement doesn't actually do much, no, but it's a moral stance of mine.

Agreed! I don't have sympathy for someone CLEARLY intoxicated driving, but .08? Come on.

Yeah. Someone who gets into the drivers seat that can't walk, well... that speaks for itself. But someone who has a couple beers after work at the bar then heads home? When does this become cruel and unusual?

And I'm not trying to say D&D is a good idea, but I could pilot a veichle after 3 beers far better than some people I know stone cold sober.

ive seen people that are soo visibily drunk that they cant walk/talk/function at all and on the breathalizer and from doing a actually blood test they tested a .05, which isl egally allowed to drive, ive also seen people blow a .30 and look/act like they were stone cold sober

Are you suggesting that BAC isnt' a good indicator of impairment?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Zanix

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: Whisper
Drinking and driving can be bad, yes. But I'm going to have to say I disagree with the arbitrary BAC limits they use to establish "drunkenness." Said disagreement doesn't actually do much, no, but it's a moral stance of mine.

Agreed! I don't have sympathy for someone CLEARLY intoxicated driving, but .08? Come on.

Yeah. Someone who gets into the drivers seat that can't walk, well... that speaks for itself. But someone who has a couple beers after work at the bar then heads home? When does this become cruel and unusual?

And I'm not trying to say D&D is a good idea, but I could pilot a veichle after 3 beers far better than some people I know stone cold sober.

ive seen people that are soo visibily drunk that they cant walk/talk/function at all and on the breathalizer and from doing a actually blood test they tested a .05, which isl egally allowed to drive, ive also seen people blow a .30 and look/act like they were stone cold sober

I find this statement completely unbelievable. Someone who couldn't walk or talk at only 0.05 would be a lightweight of the worst sort (you know, like that girl in school who faked being drunk after 1 beer), and a person who could act stone cold sober at the near life-threatening alcohol poisoning should-be-praising-the-porcelain-god level of 0.30 would have to be a lifelong alcoholic.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Zanix

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: Whisper
Drinking and driving can be bad, yes. But I'm going to have to say I disagree with the arbitrary BAC limits they use to establish "drunkenness." Said disagreement doesn't actually do much, no, but it's a moral stance of mine.

Agreed! I don't have sympathy for someone CLEARLY intoxicated driving, but .08? Come on.

Yeah. Someone who gets into the drivers seat that can't walk, well... that speaks for itself. But someone who has a couple beers after work at the bar then heads home? When does this become cruel and unusual?

And I'm not trying to say D&D is a good idea, but I could pilot a veichle after 3 beers far better than some people I know stone cold sober.

And, if such is the case, you're not going to get pulled over.
I haven't heard of DUI checkpoints doing automatic breathalyzers on everyone... They generally need a reason to suspect you're really under the influence (or so I've been made to believe) before they do a breathalyzer. I'm sure there are overzealous authorities in some locations, but isn't that the reason for the field sobriety check? i.e. feet together, walk a line, touch your nose, balance on one foot, etc.? Has that been replaced with an automatic breathalyzer in places?? Not in my area (as far as I know) - Personally, I don't drive under the influence and have never been pulled over.

But, if you're pulled over, it's because
A) you did something wrong, and you deserve to get pulled over.
B) dui checkpoint.

And, I don't want to hear "yeah, I crossed the yellow line, but honest, I was driving just fine and was pulled over."

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Feldenak
So those of you throwing people who blow .08 into jail, what are going to do about sleepy drivers? Sleepy drivers are just as dangerous (in some cases more dangerous) than supposedly drunk drivers.

You can't protect everyone from everything. Is there a test for sleepiness? Not that I know of. Thus, it won't hold up in court. If you can't prosecute it, you can't do anything about it - no matter how many laws are created.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Vic
Yet the overwhelming number of DUI accidents are caused by those who are 0.14 and above. The fact is that 0.10 was just fine where it was, and 0.08 is unfair as the driver is not actually impaired at that point.
And you may not recall this, but flush with their success is getting the limit lowered to 0.08 about 10 years ago, MADD promptly lobbied to get the limit lowered again to 0.04. They were unsuccessful, but they keep trying.

I agree with the intent of your post, Vic. It is very bad to reduce the level to that where anyone who took one dose of medicine or had one drink of alcohol at dinner is a DUI. But we are far from that point. I truely think 0.08 is probably close to the right cut-off. I wouldn't support lowering it, nor would I support raising it.

Studies of post 0.08 law effects.
[*]12% fewer fatalities in crashes where alcohol was detectable.
[*]7% fewer single vehicle nighttime injury/death crashes in male drivers.
[*]6% lower proporiton of fatal crashes of legal aged drivers with BAC >= 0.10.
[*]4% to 7% lower porportion of fatal crashes with BAC >= 0.10.
[*]Overall 16% lower porportion of fatal crashes with BAC >= 0.08.

So, I think the studies show that dropping it to 0.08 did help society. Does it create problems for some people? Yes. But I don't think I want to enter a debate which compares people's "right" to drive with a BAC of 0.10 to people's right to live.

But your same logic and argument could also be used in outlawing alcohol completely. Or lowering the speed limit on interstate highways to 35 mph and rigorously enforcing it. That some benefit was acheived is not the point. The point is does the benefit exceed the cost? Without taking the cost into consideration (and the cost here is wrongly-convicted drivers), then everything is reasonable, now isn't it?

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Vic
But your same logic and argument could also be used in outlawing alcohol completely. Or lowering the speed limit on interstate highways to 35 mph and rigorously enforcing it. That some benefit was acheived is not the point. The point is does the benefit exceed the cost? Without taking the cost into consideration (and the cost here is wrongly-convicted drivers), then everything is reasonable, now isn't it?

Heck, lets just use this "slippery-slope" argument and claim that I want to outlaw driving! Of course I don't want to outlaw driving. All slippery-slope arguments are terribly flawed, are useless, and are only brought up to mislead instead of dealing with the real issues. No, you can't take my logic and outlaw driving. No, you can't take my logic and outlaw alcohol completely.

I did take cost into consideration. I said I wouldn't support lowering it below 0.08. Why? Since it would put a significant cost on people. There is a huge difference between 0.08 and 0.04. We'd have huge chucks of our population constantly in trial if it were dropped to 0.04. That isn't a good thing. I think 0.08 is about right for the balance point. The cost on people was fairly minimal when dropping from 0.10 to 0.08 and the benefit is measurable. But things aren't linear. The marginal cost rises significantly when dropping it even further, while the marginal benefit is likely to be lessened the further you go. Is 0.08 perfect? Who knows. Maybe 0.07 is, maybe 0.09 is. But 0.08 is probably not too far from most people's optimal position.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Zanix

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: Whisper
Drinking and driving can be bad, yes. But I'm going to have to say I disagree with the arbitrary BAC limits they use to establish "drunkenness." Said disagreement doesn't actually do much, no, but it's a moral stance of mine.

Agreed! I don't have sympathy for someone CLEARLY intoxicated driving, but .08? Come on.

Yeah. Someone who gets into the drivers seat that can't walk, well... that speaks for itself. But someone who has a couple beers after work at the bar then heads home? When does this become cruel and unusual?

And I'm not trying to say D&D is a good idea, but I could pilot a veichle after 3 beers far better than some people I know stone cold sober.

ive seen people that are soo visibily drunk that they cant walk/talk/function at all and on the breathalizer and from doing a actually blood test they tested a .05, which isl egally allowed to drive, ive also seen people blow a .30 and look/act like they were stone cold sober

I find this statement completely unbelievable. Someone who couldn't walk or talk at only 0.05 would be a lightweight of the worst sort (you know, like that girl in school who faked being drunk after 1 beer), and a person who could act stone cold sober at the near life-threatening alcohol poisoning should-be-praising-the-porcelain-god level of 0.30 would have to be a lifelong alcoholic.

Here's a fun thing to do:
In a college setting, replace people's alcoholic beverages with non-alcoholic beverages. Don't tell them. Watch how many of them end up with slurred speech. It's actually a hilarious practical joke. I've done this twice: the first time, the kid we got "drunk" crawled up to his ex-girlfriend's door in the middle of the night, woke her up, and said "look what you did to me." He would have blown a 0.01. He had 1 beer (we were out) before we made him "mixed" drinks.

2nd time: goofy coworker - thought he was drinking regular beer with the rest of us. He was, in fact, drinking O'Doul's which we replaced the beer in his bottles with. 6 beers and he was hammered. (of course, there is some alcohol in O'Doul's) But, we would have been legal. Again, slurred speech.

I wouldn't have believed it myself... something you have to try.

 

[Zanix]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Feldenak
So those of you throwing people who blow .08 into jail, what are going to do about sleepy drivers? Sleepy drivers are just as dangerous (in some cases more dangerous) than supposedly drunk drivers.

You can't protect everyone from everything. Is there a test for sleepiness? Not that I know of. Thus, it won't hold up in court. If you can't prosecute it, you can't do anything about it - no matter how many laws are created.

Couldn't they test for melatonin levels in the brain? That's what makes you sleepy right?

I doubt there could be a test that cops could give people roadside for this, but maybe a blood test?

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Zanix
Couldn't they test for melatonin levels in the brain? That's what makes you sleepy right?

I doubt there could be a test that cops could give people roadside for this, but maybe a blood test?

If there is a test like that, don't you think people would do jumping jacks, run in place, etc to wake themselves up before the test? Heck, some would probably just take a 15 minute nap while in the back of the cop car on the way to the blood test. Can you wake up 100%? No. But that'll be enough to severely alter the test results. I think any form of reliability will be lost.

 

[meltdown75]

:Q like Sampson said in the other thread... my record is still clean...

although i did blow a warning once and was driven home my the cop. 3 beers over 4 hours, blew a warning on the device. i got lucky i guess...

 

[Zanix]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Zanix

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: Whisper
Drinking and driving can be bad, yes. But I'm going to have to say I disagree with the arbitrary BAC limits they use to establish "drunkenness." Said disagreement doesn't actually do much, no, but it's a moral stance of mine.

Agreed! I don't have sympathy for someone CLEARLY intoxicated driving, but .08? Come on.

Yeah. Someone who gets into the drivers seat that can't walk, well... that speaks for itself. But someone who has a couple beers after work at the bar then heads home? When does this become cruel and unusual?

And I'm not trying to say D&D is a good idea, but I could pilot a veichle after 3 beers far better than some people I know stone cold sober.

And, if such is the case, you're not going to get pulled over.
I haven't heard of DUI checkpoints doing automatic breathalyzers on everyone... They generally need a reason to suspect you're really under the influence (or so I've been made to believe) before they do a breathalyzer. I'm sure there are overzealous authorities in some locations, but isn't that the reason for the field sobriety check? i.e. feet together, walk a line, touch your nose, balance on one foot, etc.? Has that been replaced with an automatic breathalyzer in places?? Not in my area (as far as I know) - Personally, I don't drive under the influence and have never been pulled over.

But, if you're pulled over, it's because
A) you did something wrong, and you deserve to get pulled over.
B) dui checkpoint.

And, I don't want to hear "yeah, I crossed the yellow line, but honest, I was driving just fine and was pulled over."

Excellent point, DrPizza.

How about if someone got in a wreck for reasons other than impairment but had a few beers? Like their car isn't cared for right and the breaks go out. Then they hit something/someone, cop smells their stink, then wisks them off to jail. Would this be the case? I'm splitting hairs here, but I wonder if the DUI would be overlooked if it wasn't the reason for the accident.

edit: wrong "their". argh I hate that.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: Zanix

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Zanix

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: Whisper
Drinking and driving can be bad, yes. But I'm going to have to say I disagree with the arbitrary BAC limits they use to establish "drunkenness." Said disagreement doesn't actually do much, no, but it's a moral stance of mine.

Agreed! I don't have sympathy for someone CLEARLY intoxicated driving, but .08? Come on.

Yeah. Someone who gets into the drivers seat that can't walk, well... that speaks for itself. But someone who has a couple beers after work at the bar then heads home? When does this become cruel and unusual?

And I'm not trying to say D&D is a good idea, but I could pilot a veichle after 3 beers far better than some people I know stone cold sober.

And, if such is the case, you're not going to get pulled over.
I haven't heard of DUI checkpoints doing automatic breathalyzers on everyone... They generally need a reason to suspect you're really under the influence (or so I've been made to believe) before they do a breathalyzer. I'm sure there are overzealous authorities in some locations, but isn't that the reason for the field sobriety check? i.e. feet together, walk a line, touch your nose, balance on one foot, etc.? Has that been replaced with an automatic breathalyzer in places?? Not in my area (as far as I know) - Personally, I don't drive under the influence and have never been pulled over.

But, if you're pulled over, it's because
A) you did something wrong, and you deserve to get pulled over.
B) dui checkpoint.

And, I don't want to hear "yeah, I crossed the yellow line, but honest, I was driving just fine and was pulled over."

Excellent point, DrPizza.

How about if someone got in a wreck for reasons other than impairment but had a few beers? Like they're car isn't cared for right and the breaks go out. Then they hit something/someone, cop smells their stink, then wisks them off to jail. Would this be the case? I'm splitting hairs here, but I wonder if the DUI would be overlooked if it wasn't the reason for the accident.

No, it wouldn't be overlooked. The reason that the limit got down to .08 in the first place is because people who've had something to drink and then drive make easy targets. With the way things are now, you'd have one helluva time trying to convince a judge, attorney, or jury of your peers that those drinks had nothing to do with the accident, even if they didn't.

Edit: Also, from what I know, you can receive a breathalyzer regardless of how well you do on field sobriety tests. Besides that, I have no idea how accurate those tests are at weeding out "drunk" drivers, anyways.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Zanix

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Zanix

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: Whisper
Drinking and driving can be bad, yes. But I'm going to have to say I disagree with the arbitrary BAC limits they use to establish "drunkenness." Said disagreement doesn't actually do much, no, but it's a moral stance of mine.

Agreed! I don't have sympathy for someone CLEARLY intoxicated driving, but .08? Come on.

Yeah. Someone who gets into the drivers seat that can't walk, well... that speaks for itself. But someone who has a couple beers after work at the bar then heads home? When does this become cruel and unusual?

And I'm not trying to say D&D is a good idea, but I could pilot a veichle after 3 beers far better than some people I know stone cold sober.

ive seen people that are soo visibily drunk that they cant walk/talk/function at all and on the breathalizer and from doing a actually blood test they tested a .05, which isl egally allowed to drive, ive also seen people blow a .30 and look/act like they were stone cold sober

Are you suggesting that BAC isnt' a good indicator of impairment?

yes that is exactly what i am saying, i worked with the public saftey at my college, it was not unusuial to see people like i described above

the person whowas hammered and blew that .05 was trying to stumble home on his 21st bday