Correlation found between Muslim religiousity and violence

[desura]

You say most are good, normal people... but yet you've previously proposed a complete if temporary break in contact with the Muslim world. No immigration, no travel, no cultural exchanges. And of course, you've repeatedly implied that Islam is inherently dangerous in a way that Christianity somehow isn't.

And having Muslim friends doesn't give you a free pass; there's a distinction between being friends and sincerely respecting those friends' values. Imagine telling the Muslims you've befriended that you want to ban them from meeting their families overseas for a decade or two, that too many of their kind in the country is too risky, or that you see their faith as inherently dangerous to Western society. How would you expect them to react? Smile while you take a dump on their cultural identity? It's like touting that you have black friends while you parrot "all lives matter" garbage.

Clearly, ISIS and other forms of Muslim extremism mean that you should conduct thorough background checks. But setting an arbitrary quota based solely on religion? That's both simplistic and anti-humanitarian. It may even work against you by convincing Muslims that the West really is waging a war against Islam specifically, and not just terrorists.

No immigration. Contact and cultural exchange are fine.

Why are Muslims always compared to blacks? Islam is not race. You can't Rachel Dolezal yourself into being black but you can Rachel Dolezal yourself into being Muslim. I don't subscribe to All Lives Matter.

Why not compare Muslims with other recent immigrant groups? Indians and Chinese. Terrorist incidents from Indians or a Chinese? Can't even think of one.

The idea should be that Muslims over time drop their Islamic identity in favor of an American identity. If they can't handle criticism, if criticism leads to criminal violence, then they shouldn't be here.

 

[realibrad]

Unless you acknowledge that one of those two religions is an out group in Germany. This isn't a difficult concept.

So I assume the Muslims that do terrorism in Muslim majority countries are actually out group? Huh, so you can be like the majority, yet still be a person of the out group? It would have to be so considering that most Muslim terrorism happens in Muslim majority countries.

 

[nickqt]

Just let us all know when you come up with a final solution for the Mooselman question, chief.

 

[Commodus]

No immigration. Contact and cultural exchange are fine.

Why are Muslims always compared to blacks? Islam is not race. You can't Rachel Dolezal yourself into being black but you can Rachel Dolezal yourself into being Muslim. I don't subscribe to All Lives Matter.

Why not compare Muslims with other recent immigrant groups? Indians and Chinese. Terrorist incidents from Indians or a Chinese? Can't even think of one.

The idea should be that Muslims over time drop their Islamic identity in favor of an American identity. If they can't handle criticism, if criticism leads to criminal violence, then they shouldn't be here.

I must've missed that exemption in the Constitution's freedom of religion where Muslims must be pressured into giving up their religion in the name of conformity.

My comparison stands. Religion is not race, but it can still form a key aspect of your identity and cultural heritage. Claiming to be friends with Muslims while you crap all over their faith is still hypocritical. You don't have to endorse the religion or practice its tenets, but don't say you're sympathetic as the same time you want to forcefully isolate them from their families and stigmatize their entire religion.

I'm reminded a bit of Trump having that staged taco photo to 'prove' that he's not really discriminating against Mexicans. It's easy to show that you like bits and pieces of a given culture; it's much harder to show that you actually respect that culture.

 

[zinfamous]

Found the problem.

So, hyper-religious conservatives are prone to violence? No one is shocked.

 

[desura]

I must've missed that exemption in the Constitution's freedom of religion where Muslims must be pressured into giving up their religion in the name of conformity.

My comparison stands. Religion is not race, but it can still form a key aspect of your identity and cultural heritage. Claiming to be friends with Muslims while you crap all over their faith is still hypocritical. You don't have to endorse the religion or practice its tenets, but don't say you're sympathetic as the same time you want to forcefully isolate them from their families and stigmatize their entire religion.

I'm reminded a bit of Trump having that staged taco photo to 'prove' that he's not really discriminating against Mexicans. It's easy to show that you like bits and pieces of a given culture; it's much harder to show that you actually respect that culture.

The constitution was written to prevent the enshrinement of a specific interpretation of Christianity the way some regions of Europe were Catholic, others Lutheran, and they fought over it. So no, the federal government shouldn't force Muslims to assimilate but it also shouldn't take steps which prevent them from assimilating such as funding Muslim schools like they do in Britain.

It is not hypocritical. It is me taking them in as I understand them in a Western context: individuals. Put another way, one of my friends has a smoking problem. I'm still friends with him. I think he shouldn't smoke. I don't tolerate him smoking in my car. I sometimes nudge him to try to quit but after a while I don't bother anymore. I wouldn't want more people in my community to be smokers, and I definitely wouldn't want my kids to be smokers.

And no one ever has a good comeback on the lack of political violence from Chinese or Indians. The Vietnamese boat people--where is the 2nd generation violence? There is none. But there has been plenty of 2nd generation Muslim violence.

 

[xthetenth]

I'll just ignore your attempts at distraction and say that school funding is not why black kids do worse. Black kids do worse because the black community on a whole is in bad shape due to a variety of injustices accumulated over the centuries. Simply spending a lot on the schools won't solve it because their home environments and surrounding culture are the real problem.

As for the downward spiral, a Muslim immigration halt is not ostracizing Muslims. It simply halts new entrants. I do acknowledge that intrusive disruptions of existing communities can have a downward spiral effect, but a halt of new people from Pakistan is not an intrusive disruption of existing communities. Existing communities get to exist as they were and no one seriously has ever considered anything like you fear monger over.

If by attempts at distraction you mean attempts to drag you, kicking and screaming though you may be, back on topic, sure. Honestly I really don't get why you're so incredibly touchy about school funding, when what I'm talking about is just as much a thing in lily-white economic abattoirs like Kansas. Seriously, I'm not using that as a discussion of race, please stop going on about how you can't have a discussion without making it about how touchy you are about any mention of things affected by race.

I'm glad that you're not supporting all the most ludicrous things to come out of anti-islamic fools recently, but this is an environment where people are suggesting we bring back one of our national shames and get going on internment camps, and aren't getting treated as laughingstocks or as being un-American, nahh, it's actually the people who believe in one particular religion who are incompatible with America, and that incompatibility is strictly along religious lines. This isn't a new thing, it's a culmination of a trend where we went absolutely nuts and phrases like "unindicted co-conspirator" have meaning other than the government just flat out doesn't give a damn about truth any more.

No immigration. Contact and cultural exchange are fine.

Why are Muslims always compared to blacks? Islam is not race. You can't Rachel Dolezal yourself into being black but you can Rachel Dolezal yourself into being Muslim. I don't subscribe to All Lives Matter.

Why not compare Muslims with other recent immigrant groups? Indians and Chinese. Terrorist incidents from Indians or a Chinese? Can't even think of one.

The idea should be that Muslims over time drop their Islamic identity in favor of an American identity. If they can't handle criticism, if criticism leads to criminal violence, then they shouldn't be here.

The idea should be that Muslims adopt an American identity, and whether or not it's Islamic is every bit as irrelevant as whether or not it's Christian. Incidentally, while you can't handle criticism, what we're discussing is vastly more important and powerful than criticism, it meaningfully affects the lives of everyone it touches. Criticism isn't (for example) having people treat your human and constitutional rights as negotiable.

And if we're comparing Muslims with other recent groups, let's go with Japanese because apparently people still haven't gotten the memo that imprisoning large numbers based on being part of a minority is a national shame and goes against every value we profess to hold. The world has changed since then though, and just like in Ireland and Palestine (before you go off on that one, I specifically mean stuff like Irgun was getting up to in Mandate Palestine), people have a lot more opportunity and a lot more work has been done in making terrorism easier than ever. Just like the tools for spree shooting have existed for a long time but they're more of a thing of late, the publicity (and state sponsors in the case of terrorism) makes it more likely to occur.

So I assume the Muslims that do terrorism in Muslim majority countries are actually out group? Huh, so you can be like the majority, yet still be a person of the out group? It would have to be so considering that most Muslim terrorism happens in Muslim majority countries.

Good job avoiding context. To catch you back up to the thread, the results of the paper are in Western countries, which means that the variables aren't really normalized in any sense as the OP was implying. In case you were wondering though, radical Islam, even in the Middle East, is pretty much explicitly a reaction to Western ideologies and destabilization. There might well be problems and terrorism, it was a thing in other areas as well but the form we have is shaped by the absolutely horrid job the West has done in the Middle East.

The constitution was written to prevent the enshrinement of a specific interpretation of Christianity the way some regions of Europe were Catholic, others Lutheran, and they fought over it. So no, the federal government shouldn't force Muslims to assimilate but it also shouldn't take steps which prevent them from assimilating such as funding Muslim schools like they do in Britain.

Read the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, note that it got passed with unanimous support and get back to me on what the founders intended. If Christian schools are acceptable, then so are Muslim (personally I'd say the answer is what it probably already is, yes but only if privately funded).

 

[realibrad]

Good job avoiding context. To catch you back up to the thread, the results of the paper are in Western countries, which means that the variables aren't really normalized in any sense as the OP was implying. In case you were wondering though, radical Islam, even in the Middle East, is pretty much explicitly a reaction to Western ideologies and destabilization. There might well be problems and terrorism, it was a thing in other areas as well but the form we have is shaped by the absolutely horrid job the West has done in the Middle East.

Did you miss this part?

It found that the best adjusted and most integrated immigrants came from non-religious families. More than 41 percent of these were looking to get a high school diploma, nearly 63 percent had German friends and 66 percent viewed themselves as German.

The figures among young Muslims were strikingly different: only 16 percent were pursuing a high school diploma, 28 percent had German friends and about 22 percent considered themselves German.

So, it looks like it examined immigrants from different religious backgrounds and found that those that were least religions seemed to assimilate better. So western culture would have been an issue for all, yet the correlating factor appears to be how religious someone was, and particularly severe for Muslims. So It seems that you may have lost the context here.

 

[xthetenth]

Did you miss this part?



So, it looks like it examined immigrants from different religious backgrounds and found that those that were least religions seemed to assimilate better. So western culture would have been an issue for all, yet the correlating factor appears to be how religious someone was, and particularly severe for Muslims. So It seems that you may have lost the context here.

Okay, thanks for bringing up supporting evidence? Seriously, what I've been saying is that the data is congruent with desura's lazy "lolz islam makes you evil" interpretation as well as one where Muslims are ostracized, effort is put into making sure they don't integrate or even see integration as a goal to pursue, and then we start hand wringing about how Islam and Western ideologies are incompatible and it's all Muslims' fault when the only reason they are is because we're saying they are, when before 9/11 they were on track to become another bunch of generic religious conservatives.

 

[soulcougher73]

Did you miss this part?



So, it looks like it examined immigrants from different religious backgrounds and found that those that were least religions seemed to assimilate better. So western culture would have been an issue for all, yet the correlating factor appears to be how religious someone was, and particularly severe for Muslims. So It seems that you may have lost the context here.

Woot Atheism

 

[realibrad]

Okay, thanks for bringing up supporting evidence? Seriously, what I've been saying is that the data is congruent with desura's lazy "lolz islam makes you evil" interpretation as well as one where Muslims are ostracized, effort is put into making sure they don't integrate or even see integration as a goal to pursue, and then we start hand wringing about how Islam and Western ideologies are incompatible and it's all Muslims' fault when the only reason they are is because we're saying they are, when before 9/11 they were on track to become another bunch of generic religious conservatives.

No, what you said was that it could be explained because Islam is seen as an out group.

Perhaps you also missed this part?

In an effort to explain their results, the study's authors draw on the findings of Rauf Ceylan, a religious education expert and himself of Turkish extraction, who points to the number of non-German imams, or Muslim priests, preaching and teaching in Germany.

Ceylan maintains that these foreign imams are generally only in Germany temporarily, speak no German and have little contact with German culture. Most of them, he says, call for a return to a more conservative Islam and retreat into the practitioner's original ethnic culture. For them, male dominance is normal and their teachings demand the same from Muslim youths, Ceylan says.

Christian Pfeiffer, from the KFN, also points out that the phenomenon is not due to Islam itself, but to the way it is taught.

Its almost like Germany is trying to explain how its more cultural. So in their view, its not because Germans see those people as inferior, but because those people self segregate and are influenced by imams with more extreme ideas. Tell me, did you read any of this, or simply default to "Western people hate Muslims"?

 

[desura]

If by attempts at distraction you mean attempts to drag you, kicking and screaming though you may be, back on topic, sure. Honestly I really don't get why you're so incredibly touchy about school funding, when what I'm talking about is just as much a thing in lily-white economic abattoirs like Kansas. Seriously, I'm not using that as a discussion of race, please stop going on about how you can't have a discussion without making it about how touchy you are about any mention of things affected by race.

I'm glad that you're not supporting all the most ludicrous things to come out of anti-islamic fools recently, but this is an environment where people are suggesting we bring back one of our national shames and get going on internment camps, and aren't getting treated as laughingstocks or as being un-American, nahh, it's actually the people who believe in one particular religion who are incompatible with America, and that incompatibility is strictly along religious lines. This isn't a new thing, it's a culmination of a trend where we went absolutely nuts and phrases like "unindicted co-conspirator" have meaning other than the government just flat out doesn't give a damn about truth any more.



The idea should be that Muslims adopt an American identity, and whether or not it's Islamic is every bit as irrelevant as whether or not it's Christian. Incidentally, while you can't handle criticism, what we're discussing is vastly more important and powerful than criticism, it meaningfully affects the lives of everyone it touches. Criticism isn't (for example) having people treat your human and constitutional rights as negotiable.

And if we're comparing Muslims with other recent groups, let's go with Japanese because apparently people still haven't gotten the memo that imprisoning large numbers based on being part of a minority is a national shame and goes against every value we profess to hold. The world has changed since then though, and just like in Ireland and Palestine (before you go off on that one, I specifically mean stuff like Irgun was getting up to in Mandate Palestine), people have a lot more opportunity and a lot more work has been done in making terrorism easier than ever. Just like the tools for spree shooting have existed for a long time but they're more of a thing of late, the publicity (and state sponsors in the case of terrorism) makes it more likely to occur.



Good job avoiding context. To catch you back up to the thread, the results of the paper are in Western countries, which means that the variables aren't really normalized in any sense as the OP was implying. In case you were wondering though, radical Islam, even in the Middle East, is pretty much explicitly a reaction to Western ideologies and destabilization. There might well be problems and terrorism, it was a thing in other areas as well but the form we have is shaped by the absolutely horrid job the West has done in the Middle East.



Read the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, note that it got passed with unanimous support and get back to me on what the founders intended. If Christian schools are acceptable, then so are Muslim (personally I'd say the answer is what it probably already is, yes but only if privately funded).

1. I never bring up comparison to blacks. You did.

2. I would oppose detainment camps if it ever came to that, but IMO the main threat is indeed Islamic terrorism and I do believe that liberal attitudes that ignore the nature of Islam and act like it has nothing to do with terrorism hinder attempts at solving the problem of Islamic terrorism.

3. And I've never advocated infringing on Muslim citizens human or constitutional rights. I've simply said that Islam is a problem and we should fix the foreign policy, which they complain about, but also restrict immigration so we don't have so many angry Muslims.

4. The Japanese empire also attacked Pearl Harbor. The Japanese internment camps did not intern all East Asians. The Chinese were free to go as they pleased. I'm not really all that worked up over those internment camps. Knowing how people are, there stood a good chance of the Japanese being attacked by angry mobs. That is just human. There was also a possibility of real spies/sabatoge and dual loyalty. The internment was limited to the West Coast near naval facilities.

5. I agree the USA has messed up with Middle East policy. But even though the US has made mistakes, Muslims still are angry at those mistakes and are driven to violence by these mistakes. So that just makes them more likely to attack random people than other immigrants.

6. Treaty of Tripoli lol. Note also that in there they offered tribute to the pirates. That didn't work. The pirates said that it was their Allah-given duty to kill and enslave all unbelievers. It was finally solved by sending in the Marines.

 

[agent00f]

1. I never bring up comparison to blacks. You did.

2. I would oppose detainment camps if it ever came to that, but IMO the main threat is indeed Islamic terrorism and I do believe that liberal attitudes that ignore the nature of Islam and act like it has nothing to do with terrorism hinder attempts at solving the problem of Islamic terrorism.

3. And I've never advocated infringing on Muslim citizens human or constitutional rights. I've simply said that Islam is a problem and we should fix the foreign policy, which they complain about, but also restrict immigration so we don't have so many angry Muslims.

4. The Japanese empire also attacked Pearl Harbor. The Japanese internment camps did not intern all East Asians. The Chinese were free to go as they pleased. I'm not really all that worked up over those internment camps. Knowing how people are, there stood a good chance of the Japanese being attacked by angry mobs. That is just human. There was also a possibility of real spies/sabatoge and dual loyalty. The internment was limited to the West Coast near naval facilities.

5. I agree the USA has messed up with Middle East policy. But even though the US has made mistakes, Muslims still are angry at those mistakes and are driven to violence by these mistakes. So that just makes them more likely to attack random people than other immigrants.

6. Treaty of Tripoli lol. Note also that in there they offered tribute to the pirates. That didn't work. The pirates said that it was their Allah-given duty to kill and enslave all unbelievers. It was finally solved by sending in the Marines.

Let's not pretend any of that white-country crowd are going to stand in the way of the furher when they can never bother to express the least bit dismay at the brownie genocide posts.

 

[realibrad]

Let's not pretend any of that white-country crowd are going to stand in the way of the furher when they can never bother to express the least bit dismay at the brownie genocide posts.

How do you feel about Jewish genocide?

 

[agent00f]

How do you feel about Jewish genocide?

Brown is the new Jew.

For the most part these new nationalists tolerate jews if they're white enough, ie not the dark bearded ones portrayed in nazi lit, but you don't need me to figure all this out, plenty of conservatives on this forum.

 

[Double Trouble]

http://www.dw.com/en/study-finds-young-devout-muslims-in-germany-more-prone-to-violence/a-5655554

"The willingness to commit violent crimes grows among young Muslim immigrants in Germany the more religious they become, according to a joint survey by the German interior ministry and the Institute for Criminology Research of Lower Saxony (KFN).
By comparison, the study found that just the opposite was true for Christian immigrants. The willingness to commit violent crimes, such as armed robbery or assault and battery, among young Catholics and Protestants decreases with religious fervor, the KFN study revealed.
The study said the reason for this difference had to do with the very different image of masculinity. Muslim devotion promotes the acceptance of macho behavior, said Christian Pfeiffer, the director of the Lower Saxony research institute and one of the authors of the study."

It is important to note that this is a study in which both groups are immigrants, and so xenophobia cannot be blamed or failure to integrate since both are immigrants.

This should not be a surprising finding for anyone. Islam as it is practiced today just can't mix with modern Western freedom. The more fervently people follow it, the less able they are to peacefully coexist with others because their religion does not believe in personal freedoms to choose. The religion simply doesn't allow for the western beliefs that everyone is free to make their own choices, is free to express themselves (even if it offends someone or some deity), is free to leave a religion (apostasy). Lets not forget that even among relatively well integrated Muslim groups, there is still significant support for Sharia law, punishment for apostasy, punishment for insults to the religion, punishment for being gay. How do people who follow a religion that says insults to Mohammad or Allah or whatever should be punished successfully mix into a culture that believes you are free to say things even if others find it offensive? Basically, they often can't, and the evidence is plainly visible all around the world.

I know, it's not politically correct, but it's the truth. The poster who likened it to smoking is dead on. I don't hate anyone because they smoke, I'm friends with people who smoke. That doesn't mean everyone shouldn't be aware that smoking is bad and detriment to society. Everyone is still free to make their own choices and I'm definitely not advocating persecution of anyone based on their religion, but lets dispel with the political correctness and call a spade a spade.

 

[Zaap]

^ well said and pretty much dead on... at least as far as those who believe in a strict orthodox view of Islam. There are of course plenty of Muslim individuals who do just fine in western culture. But those people don't take the more radical side of Islam as gospel.

People want platitude and PC solutions ... but the core of the religion needs to undergo a modern enlightenment/reform. No easy way out of that....nor would (will?) that very process be peaceful. It would /will come with massive bloodshed and any westerners caught in the crossfire would quickly find that all their spouted 'lets all just get along! ' platitudes wouldn't keep their heads from rolling.

 

[IronWing]

During an interview a year or two ago, a Tuareg rock musician was asked how we knew his band weren't terrorists. His reply, "we can't be terrorists, we aren't even good Muslims."

 

[agent00f]

This should not be a surprising finding for anyone. Islam as it is practiced today just can't mix with modern Western freedom. The more fervently people follow it, the less able they are to peacefully coexist with others because their religion does not believe in personal freedoms to choose. The religion simply doesn't allow for the western beliefs that everyone is free to make their own choices, is free to express themselves (even if it offends someone or some deity), is free to leave a religion (apostasy). Lets not forget that even among relatively well integrated Muslim groups, there is still significant support for Sharia law, punishment for apostasy, punishment for insults to the religion, punishment for being gay. How do people who follow a religion that says insults to Mohammad or Allah or whatever should be punished successfully mix into a culture that believes you are free to say things even if others find it offensive? Basically, they often can't, and the evidence is plainly visible all around the world.

I know, it's not politically correct, but it's the truth. The poster who likened it to smoking is dead on. I don't hate anyone because they smoke, I'm friends with people who smoke. That doesn't mean everyone shouldn't be aware that smoking is bad and detriment to society. Everyone is still free to make their own choices and I'm definitely not advocating persecution of anyone based on their religion, but lets dispel with the political correctness and call a spade a spade.

^ well said and pretty much dead on... at least as far as those who believe in a strict orthodox view of Islam. There are of course plenty of Muslim individuals who do just fine in western culture. But those people don't take the more radical side of Islam as gospel.

People want platitude and PC solutions ... but the core of the religion needs to undergo a modern enlightenment/reform. No easy way out of that....nor would (will?) that very process be peaceful. It would /will come with massive bloodshed and any westerners caught in the crossfire would quickly find that all their spouted 'lets all just get along! ' platitudes wouldn't keep their heads from rolling.

Worth pointing out this is what american white nationalists klan have been saying about blacks for ages, except the good ones of course. Good to know/verify so many agree.

 

[Roflmouth]

Bbbbbbut, Islam is a religion of peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111122222222222

 

[Roflmouth]

Worth pointing out this is what american white nationalists klan have been saying about blacks for ages, except the good ones of course. Good to know/verify so many agree.

Are they the ones who taught you to call blacks "darkies?"

 

[agent00f]

Are they the ones who taught you to call blacks "darkies?"

No, your sort are what's being parodied. Pretending to be too dumb to grasp the situation is not to your benefit.