Corollary to my Definition of a Person

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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If you haven't read this thread (or at least the original post), I highly recommend starting there. This corollary is not necessarily dependent on this decision, as I believe the corollary to be much more obvious than the definition itself. However, by going through the exercise of examining what constitutes a person, you will likely have a much better understanding of what I am trying to achieve with this post.

Since a person is one who is capable of making choices, by definition, what can be said about government? Clearly, the reason for government is to restrict the choices that persons may make. This is obvious in its simplicity, as the rule of law exists to deny freedom of choice as society sees appropriate in order to protect those rights that society deems more important. Thus, absolute freedom of choice comes only with anarchy, while anyone living in a society with government has volunteered, whether consciously or otherwise, some choices. Note that the ability to make a given choice is exactly identical to a right.

Then, this simple examination has led us exactly to social contract theory, under which any citizen gives up certain rights he deems less important to secure those rights he deems more important. The more rights ceded, the more secure the remaining rights become. Of course, as the selection of protected rights and ceded rights is part of a social contract rather than an individual contract, it is clear that the set of rights to be protected and the set of rights to be ceded must be selected by society rather than by an individual. Thus, the examination has arrived at the obvious conclusion that the only just distribution of rights may occur in a society where the rule of law is based on the voice of the society?s members, roughly a democracy.

Now, a cursory examination of the manner in which persons should choose their actions must be undertaken. Certain guiding principles that may be applied broadly, or even universally, due to their basis on logic and its extensions shall be defined as ?ethics.? Principles that are instead based on religious beliefs only shall be defined as ?morals.? Note that in the vast majority of cases, ethics and morals overlap ? that is to say, the principles governing most religions are in alignment with principles of logic. However, there are certain principles that cannot be logically extended outside of a religion due to their reliance on that religion?s peculiar philosophy rather than more generic forms of logic.

So, to this point, two primary conclusions have been reached:
1. Members of any society agree to protect certain rights and cede certain rights based on the ruling of the majority.
2. A given right of the entire society may only be justly restricted when the morals of all (or, at the very least, the vast majority) of the society?s morals overlap on the issue or ethics dictates that the right may be restricted universally based on logical argument for the ceding of that right.

Now, the possibility must be addressed that if one particular sect becomes a majority, it may force its morals on the remainder of society under the guise of democracy. Thus, there must be recourse for society to cast aside such unjust laws to retain the essence of a just social contract. This task must be appointed to a group of learned individuals that society (or society?s elected officials, in the case of a republic) select specifically for this task. These individuals should be well-versed in the ideas of justice and ethics so that they may appropriately ascertain whether a law is truly based on ethics or morals and rule accordingly.

With the selection of such a body, extreme care must be taken to avoid selecting based on criteria other than merit in the areas of ethics and justice. Failing this, the body appointed to ensure justice would surely act in direct opposition to its stated purpose and would essentially negate the guiding principle of society ? that the majority may select any rights to be protected or ceded as it sees fit as long as this selection falls within the bounds provided by ethical justice. If this body falls into corruption, then justice is lost to that society and corruption will consume all that they have and stand for.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
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Good post!

I love doing alot of interesting work to come to an obvious (and boring) conclusion. What's even better is doing all that and coming to an opvious, boring and ultimately irrelevant conclusion. Those particular flights of logic are fun.

One thing: Your final conclusion should be modified with the realization that all human instituions will inevitably become corrupted, yet they seem to often do an ok job anyway. Your final statement is overstated.

Edit: I've responded to your other post with a bit of a thought experiment.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Good post!

I love doing alot of interesting work to come to an obvious (and boring) conclusion. What's even better is doing all that and coming to an opvious, boring and ultimately irrelevant conclusion. Those particular flights of logic are fun.

One thing: Your final conclusion should be modified with the realization that all human instituions will inevitably become corrupted, yet they seem to often do an ok job anyway. Your final statement is overstated.

Edit: I've responded to your other post with a bit of a thought experiment.
Yeah, I should add that in. As the time scale of an existing government increases, so does its corruption. The question is the rate of change in corruption: exponential or linear? Seems like it's exponential, but that could just be because I started following politics so short a time ago.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Social contract theory is complete bunk. I never signed this mythical contract, yet the IRS has someone claimed a portion of my earnings. How the hell is this justified??
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Social contrac theory is complete bunk. I never signed such a contract, yet the IRS has someone claimed a portion of my earnings. How the hell is this justified??
You have recourse: leave society and live as a hermit. Otherwise, you've implicitly agreed to the contract. I assume that you use roads and other public facilities that your taxes pay for. Without this contract, these things could not exist.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Social contrac theory is complete bunk. I never signed such a contract, yet the IRS has someone claimed a portion of my earnings. How the hell is this justified??
You have recourse: leave society and live as a hermit. Otherwise, you've implicitly agreed to the contract. I assume that you use roads and other public facilities that your taxes pay for. Without this contract, these things could not exist.

You have committed the fallacy of begging the question. We are trying to discover if this situation is a legitimate one, but you are just claiming outright it is, and that I should just leave if I don't like it. Furthermore, I was born here, and at no time did I ever sign a social contract with anybody, in my entire life.

By the way, I suggest you read this, on time preference and what democracy has really done to society, and continues to do. Text

Oh yeah, and claiming that because I have used public facilities means that I agreed to pay for them is absurd. The government forces us to pay for them, and it sets up monopolies.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Dissipate
You have committed the fallacy of begging the question. We are trying to discover if this situation is a legitimate one, but you are just claiming outright it is, and that I should just leave if I don't like it. Furthermore, I was born here, and at no time did I ever sign a social contract with anybody, in my entire life.

By the way, I suggest you read this, on time preference and what democracy has really done to society, and continues to do. Text

Oh yeah, and claiming that because I have used public facilities means that I agreed to pay for them is absurd. The government forces us to pay for them, and it sets up monopolies.
I am only claiming that the current system exists as it is. I have also laid out the argument why the system MUST be as it is in my OP. There is no other way a cohesive society can exist than by its members ceding rights to protect others. If not, then I can choose to do anything I want and you have no recourse to stop me. I could kill you and your only choice is to try and stop me. Nothing could be illegal, since I have a right to choose anything.

The government forces you to pay for them because this is part of the social contract that exists. Without it, there would be no public services (police, fire, roads, you name it, barring some ultra-benevolent person who, for no reason, builds and funds everything for everyone else on a whim). There would certainly be no rule of law.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Dissipate
You have committed the fallacy of begging the question. We are trying to discover if this situation is a legitimate one, but you are just claiming outright it is, and that I should just leave if I don't like it. Furthermore, I was born here, and at no time did I ever sign a social contract with anybody, in my entire life.

By the way, I suggest you read this, on time preference and what democracy has really done to society, and continues to do. Text

Oh yeah, and claiming that because I have used public facilities means that I agreed to pay for them is absurd. The government forces us to pay for them, and it sets up monopolies.
I am only claiming that the current system exists as it is. I have also laid out the argument why the system MUST be as it is in my OP. There is no other way a cohesive society can exist than by its members ceding rights to protect others. If not, then I can choose to do anything I want and you have no recourse to stop me. I could kill you and your only choice is to try and stop me. Nothing could be illegal, since I have a right to choose anything.

The government forces you to pay for them because this is part of the social contract that exists. Without it, there would be no public services (police, fire, roads, you name it, barring some ultra-benevolent person who, for no reason, builds and funds everything for everyone else on a whim). There would certainly be no rule of law.

Lies lies and more myths. Civil society exists not because of government but inspite of government. Laws would not cease to exist in absence of government, this claim is in no way true a priori, and it is not even true historically.

On the contrary, society would simply adopt a system of law and insurnace based on mutual agreements. I suggest you pick up a copy of Chaos Theory to see more about this. Furthermore, not only is government not necessary for a civil society, government perpetuates a process of de-civilization. See the above link on time preference on how this process occurs.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Then, this simple examination has led us exactly to social contract theory, under which any citizen gives up certain rights he deems less important to secure those rights he deems more important. The more rights ceded, the more secure the remaining rights become. Of course, as the selection of protected rights and ceded rights is part of a social contract rather than an individual contract, it is clear that the set of rights to be protected and the set of rights to be ceded must be selected by society rather than by an individual. Thus, the examination has arrived at the obvious conclusion that the only just distribution of rights may occur in a society where the rule of law is based on the voice of the society?s members, roughly a democracy.
Social contract theory is dependent on the premise that government (or society, if you prefer, acting through its agent, government) will always be wise and benevolent. As proven by historical reality, that premise is blatantly false. Reality notes that the ceding of certain rights may make certain remaining rights secure, but that as soon as too many rights are ceded, the remainder can then be wrested by force.
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
You have recourse: leave society and live as a hermit. Otherwise, you've implicitly agreed to the contract. I assume that you use roads and other public facilities that your taxes pay for. Without this contract, these things could not exist.
Which is why I argue that the greatest of all freedoms is the freedom to withdraw one's self from society (or as I often say it, the freedom to not take part). For all practical purposes, we no longer have this freedom in America.
For example, even if one lived in a cabin in the woods on a truly subsistence level, failure to have the proper identification could lead to arrest and prosecution. Attempting to raise children (another basic freedom) in such an environment, even with the proper home schooling proven, could lead to brutal actions from the child protection authorities, even if the child is well-taken care of (there are documented cases of authorities removing children from homes simply for wearing homespun clothing, prosecuted as "neglect").
Thus, as the difference between a slave and a wage-earner is simply that the wage-earner is free to quit, the citizen removed of his freedom to quit society is no longer involved in a social contract but is in effect a slave to society, bound from birth whether he like it or no.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Lies lies and more myths. Civil society exists not because of government but inspite of government. Laws would not cease to exist in absence of government, this claim is in no way true a priori, and it is not even true historically.

On the contrary, society would simply adopt a system of law and insurnace based on mutual agreements. I suggest you pick up a copy of Chaos Theory to see more about this. Furthermore, not only is government not necessary for a civil society, government perpetuates a process of de-civilization. See the above link on time preference on how this process occurs.
You bring up some very good points. However, my argument is not intended to deal with anarchy. Instead, it is intended to examine the reason we, as a society, perpetuate government. I haven't had sufficient time to consider anarchy as an alternative, because I don't believe either candidate in the impending election will move for anarchy (though it may be a byproduct of some of their ridiculous policies :p), and I haven't had much time to consider anything other than the situation immediately at hand. I'll check out your links as soon as I get some time.
Originally posted by: Vic
Social contract theory is dependent on the premise that government (or society, if you prefer, acting through its agent, government) will always be wise and benevolent. As proven by historical reality, that premise is blatantly false. Reality notes that the ceding of certain rights may make certain remaining rights secure, but that as soon as too many rights are ceded, the remainder can then be wrested by force.
I have never seen a formal derivation of social contract theory and only read about it on a cursory manner. Since I arrived at the exact same thing by using my own derivation, I'll assume that philosophers have used similar ideas to come to similiar conclusions. As I see it, it is not governed by really any assumptions. In fact, if you read the extent of the OP and Kibbo's note that corruption is inevitable (which I promptly agreed with), you'd see that in fact government will never be truly wise and benevolent. Your last sentence is quality - something that I hadn't really considered. I had considered a similar idea for authoritarian governments under which people are forced to abide a social contract not of their choosing. I think the longer our own government exists, we will inevitably move further and further down this path. Not a happy thought, but that's how i see it.
Which is why I argue that the greatest of all freedoms is the freedom to withdraw one's self from society (or as I often say it, the freedom to not take part). For all practical purposes, we no longer have this freedom in America.
For example, even if one lived in a cabin in the woods on a truly subsistence level, failure to have the proper identification could lead to arrest and prosecution. Attempting to raise children (another basic freedom) in such an environment, even with the proper home schooling proven, could lead to brutal actions from the child protection authorities, even if the child is well-taken care of (there are documented cases of authorities removing children from homes simply for wearing homespun clothing, prosecuted as "neglect").
Thus, as the difference between a slave and a wage-earner is simply that the wage-earner is free to quit, the citizen removed of his freedom to quit society is no longer involved in a social contract but is in effect a slave to society, bound from birth whether he like it or no.
Again something I hadn't considered. Very well said, and a very interesting perspective.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Lies lies and more myths. Civil society exists not because of government but inspite of government. Laws would not cease to exist in absence of government, this claim is in no way true a priori, and it is not even true historically.

On the contrary, society would simply adopt a system of law and insurnace based on mutual agreements. I suggest you pick up a copy of Chaos Theory to see more about this. Furthermore, not only is government not necessary for a civil society, government perpetuates a process of de-civilization. See the above link on time preference on how this process occurs.
You bring up some very good points. However, my argument is not intended to deal with anarchy. Instead, it is intended to examine the reason we, as a society, perpetuate government. I haven't had sufficient time to consider anarchy as an alternative, because I don't believe either candidate in the impending election will move for anarchy (though it may be a byproduct of some of their ridiculous policies :p), and I haven't had much time to consider anything other than the situation immediately at hand. I'll check out your links as soon as I get some time.
Originally posted by: Vic
Social contract theory is dependent on the premise that government (or society, if you prefer, acting through its agent, government) will always be wise and benevolent. As proven by historical reality, that premise is blatantly false. Reality notes that the ceding of certain rights may make certain remaining rights secure, but that as soon as too many rights are ceded, the remainder can then be wrested by force.
I have never seen a formal derivation of social contract theory and only read about it on a cursory manner. Since I arrived at the exact same thing by using my own derivation, I'll assume that philosophers have used similar ideas to come to similiar conclusions. As I see it, it is not governed by really any assumptions. In fact, if you read the extent of the OP and Kibbo's note that corruption is inevitable (which I promptly agreed with), you'd see that in fact government will never be truly wise and benevolent. Your last sentence is quality - something that I hadn't really considered. I had considered a similar idea for authoritarian governments under which people are forced to abide a social contract not of their choosing. I think the longer our own government exists, we will inevitably move further and further down this path. Not a happy thought, but that's how i see it.
Which is why I argue that the greatest of all freedoms is the freedom to withdraw one's self from society (or as I often say it, the freedom to not take part). For all practical purposes, we no longer have this freedom in America.
For example, even if one lived in a cabin in the woods on a truly subsistence level, failure to have the proper identification could lead to arrest and prosecution. Attempting to raise children (another basic freedom) in such an environment, even with the proper home schooling proven, could lead to brutal actions from the child protection authorities, even if the child is well-taken care of (there are documented cases of authorities removing children from homes simply for wearing homespun clothing, prosecuted as "neglect").
Thus, as the difference between a slave and a wage-earner is simply that the wage-earner is free to quit, the citizen removed of his freedom to quit society is no longer involved in a social contract but is in effect a slave to society, bound from birth whether he like it or no.
Again something I hadn't considered. Very well said, and a very interesting perspective.

Neither candidate is going to push for anarchy, of course, the mere thought of that is absurd. However, in my opinion one's beliefs must remain indepedent of the current political situation.

I think that if you want to know why we as a society perpetuate government, I suggest you look to psychology for the answers. Man has always recognized some kind of authority, it just so happens that authority in the political realm as we know it is illegitimate.

On the quality of government and the extreme lack thereof see The Myth of Efficient Government Service.

The main problem with social contract theory is that it does not fulfill the requirement of the justification of government. In order to philosophically show that the state must exist one must come up with what is known as the deductive a priori normative concept of the state. In other words, one must show deductively that a state ought to exist. Social contract theory fails completely at doing this.

The short book In Defense of Anarchism was written by a political philosophy professor who tried to show a priori that there should be a state. He failed to do so, and hence, wrote that book.

In fact, some political philosophers (such as Rothbard and Hans-Hoppe) claim that natural rights preclude entirely the possibility that a state can be justified a priori, and that anarcho-capitalism is the only ethically defendable social system.

I used to think that natural rights were important in the defense of anarcho-capitalism, but now I do not think that is true so much. It is only important if someone claims that ethically a state must exist, other than that one can show that every government function is based on an economic or logical fallacy.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Neither candidate is going to push for anarchy, of course, the mere thought of that is absurd. However, in my opinion one's beliefs must remain indepedent of the current political situation.

I think that if you want to know why we as a society perpetuate government, I suggest you look to psychology for the answers. Man has always recognized some kind of authority, it just so happens that authority in the political realm as we know it is illegitimate.

On the quality of government and the extreme lack thereof see The Myth of Efficient Government Service.

The main problem with social contract theory is that it does not fulfill the requirement of the justification of government. In order to philosophically show that the state must exist one must come up with what is known as the deductive a priori normative concept of the state. In other words, one must show deductively that a state ought to exist. Social contract theory fails completely at doing this.

The short book In Defense of Anarchism was written by a political philosophy professor who tried to show a priori that there should be a state. He failed to do so, and hence, wrote that book.

In fact, some political philosophers (such as Rothbard and Hans-Hoppe) claim that natural rights preclude entirely the possibility that a state can be justified a priori, and that anarcho-capitalism is the only ethically defendable social system.

I used to think that natural rights were important in the defense of anarcho-capitalism, but now I do not think that is true so much. It is only important if someone claims that ethically a state must exist, other than that one can show that every government function is based on an economic or logical fallacy.
I agree that one's thoughts should not be focused on only the immediate scene. Unfortunately, I'm new to politics in general and have scarcely had time to consider much else.

I believe that society's continued support, even if it is grudgingly given, is what gives legitimacy to the current government. As I've said before, 99% of Americans don't care about politics other than how it affects their wallets and way of life. If they can drive to work on nice roads without paying too much in taxes, they will be satisfied. They'll still complain about their taxes, but they won't really do anything about it. Worker bee syndrome, I guess. I will agree that this is not how it should be, but that's how I see it - sad, but true.

I don't think social contract theory attempts to justify government's existence so much as explain why people abide government. This goes back to what I said above - people want someone else to worry about the real problems so they can focus on work and getting laid. They see these things as their only objectives (not these necessarily, but I think you know what I mean).

I won't attempt to argue that, in an ideal world, no government would be necessary. However, I don't see anarchism taking off any time soon. People are just too used to the status quo and uninterested in making sweeping changes. In a world where people were all educated (properly, not this hodge-podge American public school system) and capable thinkers, anarchism would be great. As it is, people can hardly think for themselves to buy groceries. Forcing them to think by removing their safety net may not be the worst remedy - it would certainly make for an interesting experiment.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Actually, the state always has one legitimate justification for its existence. Its protects its citizens from other states.

As government is a necessary vice that cannot be outlawed ;) , it is my opinion that the ideal form of government is one that works from the local community up. Instead of our current system which works centralized federal government down.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: Vic
Actually, the state always has one legitimate justification for its existence. Its protects its citizens from other states.

As government is a necessary vice that cannot be outlawed ;) , it is my opinion that the ideal form of government is one that works from the local community up. Instead of our current system which works centralized federal government down.

I beg to differ. The government is not necessary to provide national defense. In fact, if there was an anarcho-capitalist society of equal population somewhere in the world with a private defense, it would destroy the U.S. military. The reason why is the same reason that Rothbard states in the above article on government services: the government and any bureaucracy for that matter literally does not have the means to efficiently allocate resources, the allocation is chaos and aribitrarily ultimately decided by bureaucrats and government planners. This is in contrast to the free market in which products and services are allocated and improved by millions of minds working in harmony. Economist and market anarchist Robert Murphy talks about this in his book Chaos Theory. Therefore, we know a priori that private defense would be far superior to any government provided defense in the world.

Also see Hans-Hoppe's book The Myth of National Defense..
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Neither candidate is going to push for anarchy, of course, the mere thought of that is absurd. However, in my opinion one's beliefs must remain indepedent of the current political situation.

I think that if you want to know why we as a society perpetuate government, I suggest you look to psychology for the answers. Man has always recognized some kind of authority, it just so happens that authority in the political realm as we know it is illegitimate.

On the quality of government and the extreme lack thereof see The Myth of Efficient Government Service.

The main problem with social contract theory is that it does not fulfill the requirement of the justification of government. In order to philosophically show that the state must exist one must come up with what is known as the deductive a priori normative concept of the state. In other words, one must show deductively that a state ought to exist. Social contract theory fails completely at doing this.

The short book In Defense of Anarchism was written by a political philosophy professor who tried to show a priori that there should be a state. He failed to do so, and hence, wrote that book.

In fact, some political philosophers (such as Rothbard and Hans-Hoppe) claim that natural rights preclude entirely the possibility that a state can be justified a priori, and that anarcho-capitalism is the only ethically defendable social system.

I used to think that natural rights were important in the defense of anarcho-capitalism, but now I do not think that is true so much. It is only important if someone claims that ethically a state must exist, other than that one can show that every government function is based on an economic or logical fallacy.
I agree that one's thoughts should not be focused on only the immediate scene. Unfortunately, I'm new to politics in general and have scarcely had time to consider much else.

Well, in that case you need to start reading up on what politics is really about. Starting with this book.

I believe that society's continued support, even if it is grudgingly given, is what gives legitimacy to the current government.

Many people support the government, this is true, but this is out of pure ignorance or the fact that they have successfully acquired wealth from the government, and it does not make it legitimate.

As I've said before, 99% of Americans don't care about politics other than how it affects their wallets and way of life. If they can drive to work on nice roads without paying too much in taxes, they will be satisfied. They'll still complain about their taxes, but they won't really do anything about it. Worker bee syndrome, I guess. I will agree that this is not how it should be, but that's how I see it - sad, but true.

I agree, but fortunately things could be changing, especially due to technology. Those who actually know what the government is, and do not wish to support it, will be able to opt out, by hiding income and assets in offshore digital currency accounts.

I don't think social contract theory attempts to justify government's existence so much as explain why people abide government. This goes back to what I said above - people want someone else to worry about the real problems so they can focus on work and getting laid. They see these things as their only objectives (not these necessarily, but I think you know what I mean).

Once again I agree. There are massively ignorant people out there. Even otherwise intelligent and well read professionals. Part of the reason why is that the public school systems have systematically attempted to legitimize democracy in their courses. From the time people are in elementary school they are told myths like the "checks and balances" of the three branches, and of course social contract theory.

I won't attempt to argue that, in an ideal world, no government would be necessary. However, I don't see anarchism taking off any time soon.

Nor do I, but this has no bearing on the fact that if one is logically led to a conclusion one should not abandon it for "practical" reasons. By doing that you are simply resorting to the conflicting and absurd ideas that everyone else goes around believing in.

People are just too used to the status quo and uninterested in making sweeping changes. In a world where people were all educated (properly, not this hodge-podge American public school system) and capable thinkers, anarchism would be great.

No, anarchy has a place for every type of person, even uneducated people.

As it is, people can hardly think for themselves to buy groceries. Forcing them to think by removing their safety net may not be the worst remedy - it would certainly make for an interesting experiment.

Their "safety net" is exactly what is keeping them and the rest of society down. Big government really benefits no one in the end (even those who derive their income from it, for anarchy holds far greater prosperity for all), and it certainly doesn't help to keep anyone safe, September 11 was a big reminder of that.

 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard/Dissipate
Many people support the government, this is true, but this is out of pure ignorance or the fact that they have successfully acquired wealth from the government, and it does not make it legitimate.

As I've said before, 99% of Americans don't care about politics other than how it affects their wallets and way of life. If they can drive to work on nice roads without paying too much in taxes, they will be satisfied. They'll still complain about their taxes, but they won't really do anything about it. Worker bee syndrome, I guess. I will agree that this is not how it should be, but that's how I see it - sad, but true.

I apologize if I misquoted anyone; this is getting confusing.

In any event, I don't see how anarchism can be a good thing for infrastructure. If private companies built and maintained all roads, there would have to be toll boothes absolutely everywhere. People from Kentucky would have to pay tolls to drive on Iowa roads. If the federal government simply collected tax on every gallon of gasoline sold and spent that money on roads, it would be perfectly fair IMO. The inefficiency caused by the government running the project would be outweighed by the productivity and energy efficiency gains.

The only potential remedy I can see to this situation is some kind of electronic transponder system, which would ineveitably lead to "big brother" syndrome.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
All good points Diss. I do have one question though: would you agree that the role of government is to limit rights and choices that people can make?
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: CycloWizard/Dissipate
Many people support the government, this is true, but this is out of pure ignorance or the fact that they have successfully acquired wealth from the government, and it does not make it legitimate.

As I've said before, 99% of Americans don't care about politics other than how it affects their wallets and way of life. If they can drive to work on nice roads without paying too much in taxes, they will be satisfied. They'll still complain about their taxes, but they won't really do anything about it. Worker bee syndrome, I guess. I will agree that this is not how it should be, but that's how I see it - sad, but true.

I apologize if I misquoted anyone; this is getting confusing.

In any event, I don't see how anarchism can be a good thing for infrastructure. If private companies built and maintained all roads, there would have to be toll boothes absolutely everywhere. People from Kentucky would have to pay tolls to drive on Iowa roads. If the federal government simply collected tax on every gallon of gasoline sold and spent that money on roads, it would be perfectly fair IMO. The inefficiency caused by the government running the project would be outweighed by the productivity and energy efficiency gains.

The only potential remedy I can see to this situation is some kind of electronic transponder system, which would ineveitably lead to "big brother" syndrome.

Actually, that is a huge myth surrounding private roads. The technology for private roads existed all the way back in the 1970s, today it would be relatively simple to install such technology. "Big brother" syndrome only exists because of the government, eliminate government and that goes away.

Here are a series of articles on road privatization by economist Walter Block (scroll down about halway down the page).

Text

See "Free Market Transportation: Denationalizing the Roads," especially.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
All good points Diss. I do have one question though: would you agree that the role of government is to limit rights and choices that people can make?

No. A minarchist (someone who believes in a minimal number of government functions) would say that the government's only job should be providing "basic" public goods such as roads and national defense, perhaps minting of gold coins etc. Other than this, they believe that the government should only intervene in human affairs to stop people from exercising force against others i.e. the initiation of force. In this way a minarchist would claim that the government would be protecting people's rights, not limiting them.

However, I personally disagree with this view, on the grounds that first of all I do not believe a government can be a minarchy for long, and also that minarchists still have to make an exception for some kind of taxation. Taxation, to me, is the beginning of the end of civilization.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Good post.////Just bumping to have it in my search for tomorrow when I wake.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Ferocious
Reading a thread like this reminds me of my younger naive days.
Reading a self-righteous post like this reminds me of why I hope I never end up being a 'mature' person like you. If you're not even going to give any thought to or comment on the subject, don't bother posting. You're just trying to make yourself look wise relative to those around you - on an internet forum. If you were wise, you would realize that this is hardly a worthwhile venture.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Ferocious
Reading a thread like this reminds me of my younger naive days.
Reading a self-righteous post like this reminds me of why I hope I never end up being a 'mature' person like you. If you're not even going to give any thought to or comment on the subject, don't bother posting. You're just trying to make yourself look wise relative to those around you - on an internet forum. If you were wise, you would realize that this is hardly a worthwhile venture.

No kidding,

Would you rather just see a closed-minded flame war? That's how most of the older posters here spend their time.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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I trust you realize that by the standards you have set right here, that as long as enough people vote for it, any individual can be deprived of his rights for no reason whatsoever. That's the way that ancient Greece ended up (Literal Direct Democracy). Ever hear of Socrates? Killed because he said things that the majority of people didn't want to hear. Is that a state you would call Justice?

I have to disagree with you. Rights exist as a matter of man's nature (ie, as a consequence of the fact that he is a creature who is capable of learning and making choices based on the evidence he discovers) and are NOT subject to the whims of "Society", which is a NON-ENTITY and has no capability for making choices or assessing consequences.

The founding fathers most certainly would not agree with the notion that the majority have a right to deprive the individual of his rights for any random reason.

Jason

1. Members of any society agree to protect certain rights and cede certain rights based on the ruling of the majority.
2. A given right of the entire society may only be justly restricted when the morals of all (or, at the very least, the vast majority) of the society?s morals overlap on the issue or ethics dictates that the right may be restricted universally based on logical argument for the ceding of that right.