Quiksilver
Diamond Member
- Jul 3, 2005
- 4,725
- 0
- 71
destrekor
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2005
- 28,799
- 359
- 126
I want to know why there is never any mention of what these "underlying conditions" actually are.
What if it's an action the immune system takes against the virus? There was a certain aggressiveness an otherwise healthy immune system enacted when infected with the 1918 A(H1N1) strain. The virus caused a cascading immune response that resulted in the immune system attacking the lung tissue, in a total warfare blitz that could destroy the lungs in the effort to eradicate the virus. This is not normal immune system response protocol, if you will, and it was classified as a named 'condition' that really only presented itself with that virus strain.
If that is happening at all, it is unknown. But with the otherwise typically healthy older child to middle-aged adult range of victims (with serious treatment necessary, not just resulting in death for every case - regardless, not the typical age range of 'serious' patients when looking at normal seasonal influenza strains), it fits the normal situation for that "condition". Either when that immune response was studied, they didn't know everything about the immune system, or it actually the virus that causes the response, and not something the individual already had. It could be those patients had a pre-existed immune system condition (where the body targets itself, essentially - these aren't like immunocompromised patients, rather the opposite - too active immune system), but they were never diagnosed because symptoms weren't obviously presenting themselves, if at all. That's not too far fetched, more people tend to have immune system issues like that than realized, until something comes along that makes the situation worse. So they go without knowing until its too late, or get diagnosed when they are pretty old and symptoms really make themselves noticed.
edit:
looks like the WHO and the CDC are considering the same thing I was thinking:
it's called a cytokine storm. NYT Article
Sounds like underlying conditions sometimes represents conditions like asthma, diabetes, heart disease, and TB.
But there are documented cases of healthy young adults dying. And the article discusses how those deaths were essentially from viral pneumonia. The cytokine storm results in the lungs getting flooded from the immune response to a virus in the lungs. AFAIK, H1N1 (the 1918 strain, and now the 2009 strain) seems to be the only viral strain that gets published credit for a cytokine storm caused viral pneumonia death.
It just progresses too fast and requires serious treatment effort, including mechanical ventilators when it gets worse. An overflood of patients with this immune response could result in hospitals having too many patients causing an overdemand of resources, resources typically very limited in each hospital.
Hopefully it doesn't get that bad. That'll be a nasty mess on our hands.
What if it's an action the immune system takes against the virus? There was a certain aggressiveness an otherwise healthy immune system enacted when infected with the 1918 A(H1N1) strain. The virus caused a cascading immune response that resulted in the immune system attacking the lung tissue, in a total warfare blitz that could destroy the lungs in the effort to eradicate the virus. This is not normal immune system response protocol, if you will, and it was classified as a named 'condition' that really only presented itself with that virus strain.
If that is happening at all, it is unknown. But with the otherwise typically healthy older child to middle-aged adult range of victims (with serious treatment necessary, not just resulting in death for every case - regardless, not the typical age range of 'serious' patients when looking at normal seasonal influenza strains), it fits the normal situation for that "condition". Either when that immune response was studied, they didn't know everything about the immune system, or it actually the virus that causes the response, and not something the individual already had. It could be those patients had a pre-existed immune system condition (where the body targets itself, essentially - these aren't like immunocompromised patients, rather the opposite - too active immune system), but they were never diagnosed because symptoms weren't obviously presenting themselves, if at all. That's not too far fetched, more people tend to have immune system issues like that than realized, until something comes along that makes the situation worse. So they go without knowing until its too late, or get diagnosed when they are pretty old and symptoms really make themselves noticed.
edit:
looks like the WHO and the CDC are considering the same thing I was thinking:
it's called a cytokine storm. NYT Article
Sounds like underlying conditions sometimes represents conditions like asthma, diabetes, heart disease, and TB.
But there are documented cases of healthy young adults dying. And the article discusses how those deaths were essentially from viral pneumonia. The cytokine storm results in the lungs getting flooded from the immune response to a virus in the lungs. AFAIK, H1N1 (the 1918 strain, and now the 2009 strain) seems to be the only viral strain that gets published credit for a cytokine storm caused viral pneumonia death.
It just progresses too fast and requires serious treatment effort, including mechanical ventilators when it gets worse. An overflood of patients with this immune response could result in hospitals having too many patients causing an overdemand of resources, resources typically very limited in each hospital.
Hopefully it doesn't get that bad. That'll be a nasty mess on our hands.
eits
Lifer
PottedMeat
Lifer
- Apr 17, 2002
- 12,363
- 475
- 126
Swine flu is such a shitty name. The alternatives floating around the intarwebs are so much better:
Hamthrax
Bacon Lung
Porkinson?s
Hamthrax
Bacon Lung
Porkinson?s
DangerAardvark
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2004
- 7,559
- 0
- 0
Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: MastaTam
Originally posted by: moshquerade
I never said it affected the elderly.
The elderly seem to have some leftover immunity from the last outbreak and unlike regular seasonal flu, they aren't being hit as much with the h1n1 virus.
I maintain that the large majority of those who have died from swine flu had other medical conditions ongoing.... just like those who die each year from pneumonia and other flu strains.
Ok, then let me rephrase. It's always the case that people with underlying conditions will succumb to complications of their disease. And while this true in the case of swine flu, it's also true that perfectly healthy individuals have also succumbed to it. This makes it far deadlier than you imply.
Let me ask you, do "perfectly healthy individuals" sometimes succumb to seasonal flu? or to pneumonia? Have more "perfectly healthy individuals *died* from swine flu than other types of flu?
I am not saying swine flu isn't more contagious or that young people aren't the ones getting it, I am saying that the deaths from it are no different than from other types of seasonal flu that we see.
I believe mosh is right. And people should stop calling it swine flu. It's affecting the pork market when it really doesn't need to. Quite sad actually. =(
Fluctuations in the pork market make you sad?
DangerAardvark
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2004
- 7,559
- 0
- 0
Originally posted by: Quiksilver
I read thread title as "Chris Cornell dies of swine flu"....
"...but was brought back to life by the devil after agreeing to make another Soundgarden album."
eits
Lifer
no, i'm implying that the push for swine flu vaccinations and making it mandatory is bullshit. it isn't safe, there's manufacturing issues, and it's just another way for big pharma and the fda to profit off of something that isn't necessary and potentially deadly to some people.
Gibsons
Lifer
- Aug 14, 2001
- 12,530
- 35
- 91
Hello? The fda is a nonprofit organization. It's a government agency. The H1N1 flu is "potentially deadly" as well, but much moreso than any vaccine could be. Even if it proves to be a mild strain (as it seems so far) it's going to kill 30K plus. Mortality in this strain seems to be predominantly the very young, old folks not so much.
How do you know "it isn't safe?"
I don't think it should be mandatory except in a few cases (health care workers, etc). And, I haven't heard of anyone being forced to get it outside of those few. There won't be enough doses anyway.
PlasmaBomb
Lifer
- Nov 19, 2004
- 11,636
- 2
- 81
eits
Lifer
hehe non-profit
you're too cute each year, 30k+ or so people die from the flu... that's regardless of how many people get the flu shot.
http://media3.washingtonpost.c...24/GR2005102401299.gif
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...2/AR2005102200063.html
also, you can't say 30k people will die of swine flu when there have been around only 50k cases so far. the swine flu is no more fatal than the seasonal flu. just because media makes it out to be doesn't make it so.
the current swine flu vaccine is very similar the the vaccine for swine flu they administered in 1976, which actually caused more harm than good.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=107064
the vaccine has not been tested nearly enough nor has it been made safe enough for it to be administered.
http://articles.mercola.com/si...ler-Nerve-Disease.aspx
not even the makers of the swine flu vaccine are willing to take the shot themselves...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4SmFxyust0
you're better off just dosing up on vitamin d, vitamin c, and l-lysine.
PlasmaBomb
Lifer
- Nov 19, 2004
- 11,636
- 2
- 81
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: MastaTam
Originally posted by: moshquerade
I never said it affected the elderly.
The elderly seem to have some leftover immunity from the last outbreak and unlike regular seasonal flu, they aren't being hit as much with the h1n1 virus.
I maintain that the large majority of those who have died from swine flu had other medical conditions ongoing.... just like those who die each year from pneumonia and other flu strains.
Ok, then let me rephrase. It's always the case that people with underlying conditions will succumb to complications of their disease. And while this true in the case of swine flu, it's also true that perfectly healthy individuals have also succumbed to it. This makes it far deadlier than you imply.
Let me ask you, do "perfectly healthy individuals" sometimes succumb to seasonal flu? or to pneumonia? Have more "perfectly healthy individuals *died* from swine flu than other types of flu?
I am not saying swine flu isn't more contagious or that young people aren't the ones getting it, I am saying that the deaths from it are no different than from other types of seasonal flu that we see.
I believe mosh is right. And people should stop calling it swine flu. It's affecting the pork market when it really doesn't need to. Quite sad actually. =(
Fluctuations in the pork market make you sad?
Maybe he bulk buys pork?
eits
Lifer
lol... wait until you have a blown disc or failed low back surgery or chronic migraines, etc... then you decide what's necessary and what isn't.
there are people who find themselves in wheelchairs or end up with gastrointestinal bleeding from popping nsaids for pain because they didn't think chiropractic care was necessary to get them out of their pain without drugs or surgery. it isn't until they're at they've exhausted all their conventional, medical options before they come to a chiropractor and smack themselves for not coming to one sooner and being upset about how much money they spent with all these other doctors and treatments that did nothing or made their issues worse.
i understand you don't like chiropractors and that's totally your prerogative... but don't ignorantly blanket statement chiropractors just because you may have gone to a bad one out there or something. the truth of the matter is that you're ignorant of chiropractic care.
and, yeah, there are patients who come in for treatments that aren't "necessary" (i.e. maintenance of your spine isn't exactly "necessary," but it'll keep you from having to come in constantly after you re-exacerbate your chief complaint), but proper chiropractic care won't cause death or gbs.
eits
Lifer
just because we don't use drugs or surgery to treat people for things doesn't make it quackery... what is this ridiculous view that in order to treat people, you need to use pharmaceutical drugs in all cases? you're brainwashed.
and since when have i said anything that would resemble quackery whatsoever?
what do you do for a living? because i guarantee whatever it is, you can't help someone who's been in a wheelchair for months stand upright and walk again... or help straighten someone's crooked back... or reduce the pain and inflammation of a kid's osgood-schlatter's syndrome... or get rid of someone's severe migraine...
until you do, stfu. thanks.
DangerAardvark
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2004
- 7,559
- 0
- 0
Originally posted by: eits
hehe non-profit
each year, 30k+ or so people die from the flu... that's regardless of how many people get the flu shot.
http://media3.washingtonpost.c...24/GR2005102401299.gif
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...2/AR2005102200063.html
also, you can't say 30k people will die of swine flu when there have been around only 50k cases so far. the swine flu is no more fatal than the seasonal flu. just because media makes it out to be doesn't make it so.
the current swine flu vaccine is very similar the the vaccine for swine flu they administered in 1976, which actually caused more harm than good.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=107064
the vaccine has not been tested nearly enough nor has it been made safe enough for it to be administered.
http://articles.mercola.com/si...ler-Nerve-Disease.aspx
not even the makers of the swine flu vaccine are willing to take the shot themselves...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4SmFxyust0
The guy in your youtube link says that Thimerosal causes Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) and autism. Neither is true.
First of all Thimerosal has been phased out of childhood vaccines, and yet autism rates continue to rise. Multiple studies have shown no causal relationship between Thimerosal and autism, and mercury levels in the blood after vaccination have been found to be well below the most stringent public safety limit. Furthermore, the type of mercury in Thimerosal was ethyl as opposed to the methyl mercury, which has a sixth of the half life of methyl mercury.
Secondly, there is no link at all between Thimerosal and GBS. The normal rate of GBS is 1-2 per 100,000, while the risk rate due to vaccination is 1 per million. Also, let's not forget that viral infections, including the flu itself can also trigger GBS.
Hey, but why let facts stand in the way of a good ant-vax rant.
DangerAardvark
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2004
- 7,559
- 0
- 0
To be fair we really don't know much about your practice and there are many different types of chiropractors. Chiropractors who treat illnesses outside of those directly related the spine are quacks. Those who manipulate children are dangerous quacks. Homeopathy? Magic water. Herbs that actually have an effect are drugs. Herbs that don't are placebo. All manner of pseudo-science is frequently associated with chiropractic.
eits
Lifer
just about everything you said is crap that you swallowed up because penn said so.
however, you're right... a lot of the bullshit out there (anti-vaccinations, anti-germ theory, subluxation causing cancer, and other silly comments) is, unfortunately, linked to chiropractic. i can't help that. all i can do is wait for the profession to mature and let those chiropractors who believe that stuff die off (because the newer chiropractors to the field don't buy the stuff they spew)
DangerAardvark
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2004
- 7,559
- 0
- 0
So you believe in homeopathy? You've certainly alluded to it in the past. And would you treat someone for say, a gastro-intestinal problem if they came to you?
destrekor
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2005
- 28,799
- 359
- 126
WHO and CDC aren't good sources?
Did you read my post, or are you commenting on others?
Mine isn't bullshit, so take a look at it if you have yet to do so.
The only issue is it's too early to tell how common cytokine storms are in relation to the 2009 A(H1N1) strain. They may be fluke issues, or a mutation that isn't very common compared to the 2009 A(H1N1) strain. Although it seems they are pointing to cytokine storms happening due to the strain that came through in the Spring, and it appears the strain that's popping up this flu season is the same one.
Point being - cytokine storms have already been reported as having most likely occurred in some healthy young adults, which resulted in a rapidly worsening case of viral pneumonia and ultimately death. Others had underlying conditions.
But what people cannot get out of their heads is the fact that so far, more of the "middle group" of ages has been hit worst with this strain, something that was shared in common with the 1918 A(H1N1) strain, also a strain that caused a significant number of cytokine storms, killing numerous healthy adults (most often young to middle-age adults). The vast majority of those who fall victim to otherwise common seasonal flu strains are the very young (toddlers, infants, etc) and the elderly, those who have weaker immune systems.
A flu like the 1918 A(H1N1) strain did kill the young and elderly, but in that respect it's like a normal flu and behaves the same, no cytokine storm. Cytokine storms can only happen in healthy young adults. Regular seasonal flu strains aren't exactly found in published journals linked to cytokine storms.
Like I said, I am absolutely hoping for the best and this being like any other flu season. But, I am kind of expecting a not so pretty situation. Cytokine-storm caused viral pneumonia, if that happens to even a small percentage of victims in any locality, hospitals won't be able to treat many of them. The equipment and resources for that kind of treatment is far from readily available.
I had no plans to get the vaccine, and really just don't want to get it... I've never gotten a flu shot. The fact that I tend to get a flu and/or a sinus infection at least once annually, I'm expecting to get some flu strain this season. But I like the body dealing with things on its own, getting natural immunity.
But my mom is persistent on me getting a vaccine when its available. Being a college student at a very large university, and often in close proximity to many students, kind of means it is definitely going to spread on campus. We had quite a few confirmed cases in the spring. One by one they slowly trickled in
And nobody of the healthy young adult age group has any natural immunity to this strain. So, everyone is primed to get it the moment they come into contact with it.
Let's see if I can make it the few weeks or months of class until the vaccine is available. :laugh:
[I told that to my mom, and she was not very enthused. :evil:]
Gibsons
Lifer
- Aug 14, 2001
- 12,530
- 35
- 91
Originally posted by: eits
hehe non-profit
each year, 30k+ or so people die from the flu... that's regardless of how many people get the flu shot.
http://media3.washingtonpost.c...24/GR2005102401299.gif
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...2/AR2005102200063.html
No shit. That's pretty much where the projections for how many this virus will kill come from. If it's a typical mild strain, very widespread, it'll kill 30k+. Pretty straightforward.
There are documented changes in numbers of cases and deaths depending on how well the seasonal vaccine matches the circulating strain. Two years ago they had a poor match and there were more cases and more deaths. In the years before and after the vaccine was a good match and there were fewer cases and deaths.
It's a very reasonable and conservative projection, based on what we know. It's highly contagious, is spreading very rapidly, and seems to have a mortality rate of 0.1% or less. There's little disagreement on this. Some projections are a little higher.
It's also very similar to the vaccines that have been administered the last 20 years... Guillain Barre is a known risk with vaccines, and it's extremely rare, just under one in a million. That's significantly lower than the death rate from any strain of type A influenza.
Text
[/quote]
hahahaha Mercola. Sorry, refuse to give him a click.
Did you really, honestly find that the least bit convincing? couldn't you spot the lies halfway through? That's when I had to turn it off.
The evil big supplement companies have gotten to you. You know they're just out to make a profit, don't you? You should take catnip and elderberry. But only under the full moon, and make sure a cat isn't in the room.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 22K
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 384
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
Facebook
Twitter