Cop wrongfully ticketed me for skipping a red light

[BergeLSU]

This guy is going to be mad if he gets a ticket in the mail from the red light camera too.

 

[gorcorps]

Prosecutor? Some states waste lawyers on traffic violations?

You think it's just one state? This entire country is overrun with lawyers.

 

[Sinsear]

So you drive around in an un-car (unregistered and ininspected)? Does loads for your credibility.

 

[compnovice]

It matters not "what" the officer was doing beforehand. What will happen is that the officer will swear under oath to the judge that he saw you enter the intersection when the signal was red. Judges situationally take an officers word with more weight than a citizen's (unfortunately for us, even though they aren't really supposed to since everyone is under oath). Thus if you say you didn't do it, you need to provide more proof that you did not. A witness on your side in the passenger seat holds weight (2 vs 1) but again, that weight the officer holds is pretty fierce.



The way out here is not to prove the officer he "couldn't see" because that is incredibly hard to do. You weren't actually observing him. He could have been watching you through the rearview while waiting for the computer for example. This strategy would only work with other evidence, impossible for you to obtain as there won't be discovery at a traffic trial.

If its truly you vs him, and you having no firm evidence (video recording device) or subjective evidence (witnesses, etc) - the best you can hope for is a compromise. Often with minor offenses the courts will offer a deal if you plead no contest (and beg the mercy of the court in the process). I got 41 in a 25 ticket (normally $286 + 2 points) reduced to $75 and adjudication withheld this way. Your prior driving record is a BIG part of something like this.

No, I dont have any witnesses. What I am trying to say is, even if the cop was looking in the rearview, he would not see the traffic light on the side of the road I was travelling on since he was already beyond the intersection. He is either making an assumption based on what he saw for the opposing direction traffic light in the rearview OR maybe when the next traffic light (another 250 ft from cop) became red.

I was thinking if I could request the traffic ticket that the cop issued just before me to get documented evidence where the cop was. Again this is on the assumption that he gave a ticket to the person he had stopped just before he pulled me over (this probaly wont work since there is no discovery?). My driving record is fairly clean, 1 speeding violation 9 years back.

Maybe, the best bet would be to take the deal they offer (if any).

 

[Number1]

My sister got arrested in Montreal for a simple traffic violation. When the police checked her registration he realized it had expired the previous day. They impounded the car for a month. It cost her over a thousand to get the car back and for the fine.

 

[Six]

My friend was ticketed for going over 45mph in a 25mph zone at night. The thing was he wasn't even driving on the road the cop said he was speeding on. My friend took to court his two passengers as witnesses. Cop said she saw his car. Cop admitted she did lose sight of his car for a bit. Judge didn't want to hear from witnesses. Judge said cop was right. Two points deducted, plus larger fine, and traffic school.

Moral of the story: it's traffic court...you will need a miracle.

 

[compnovice]

In all honesty, I do question your assertion that you were only 10-15 ft. from the light when it changed to yellow.

Why? Because, traveling at 45mph, you cover 66 ft. every second. So, at 15 ft from the light when it changed, you'd have had no time to even think about stopping at the light.....that first second when it changed, you'd have traveled the 15 ft. to the light and another 51 ft. past the light. All in the one second after the light changed.....and not enough time to see the light change, decide you couldn't make it and then decide to run it. And I don't think most lights change from green to yellow to red in a second or less.

Instead, I postulate you were MUCH further from the light when it changed.....maybe a couple of hundred of feet from it even. In two seconds, you may have had enough time to recognize the light changed, decided you couldn't stop and then decided to run it. Two seconds at 45mph is 132 ft. And I'll bet you were even further back.

15 ft. from the light really meant you only saw the light change as you were moving away from the light, in your rearview mirror (it changed to yellow a 1/4 of a second before you hit the intersection, something the rest of your story negates.)

So, quite possibly the cop was right and you completely misjudged your distances......or the cop just decided to mess with you because you were far past the intersection after that first second after the light changed to yellow.

Add to this that you let your registration lapse for almost two weeks, and I really begin to question your judgment ability. No responsible adult lets his/her auto registration just lapse and ignores it for almost two weeks.

If I was 15ft from the intersection, with the intersection being 40-50 ft wide, that means the traffic light was apprximately 60ft from me i.e. 1 sec away from me. Enough time for perception and response. And yes, I was not carrying a measuring tape.

I did say I forgot to renew my registration. I am not the first or the last person who has done this. What does this have to do with me getting a ticket for running the red light?

 

[sao123]

No, I dont have any witnesses. What I am trying to say is, even if the cop was looking in the rearview, he would not see the traffic light on the side of the road I was travelling on since he was already beyond the intersection. He is either making an assumption based on what he saw for the opposing direction traffic light in the rearview OR maybe when the next traffic light (another 250 ft from cop) became red.

I was thinking if I could request the traffic ticket that the cop issued just before me to get documented evidence where the cop was. Again this is on the assumption that he gave a ticket to the person he had stopped just before he pulled me over (this probaly wont work since there is no discovery?). My driving record is fairly clean, 1 speeding violation 9 years back.

Maybe, the best bet would be to take the deal they offer (if any).

since they are synchronized, what difference would this make?
they both turn yellow & red at the same instant.

 

[compnovice]

The short answer is that there is no best way, because the cop is most likely going to say he had a clear view of you going through the red light. For starters, why don't you go back to the scene with a camera and photograph the intersection as well as the position the officer was in when you went through the light. If you can establish that he was sitting in a place where he couldn't have seen you, that might help you out. At the end of the day you're essentially relying on the cop admitting he didn't see OR being able to show that he's an unreliable witness.

The alternative is to try to deal with the prosecutor. In my experience, prosecutors don't want to give you the time of day unless you're an attorney. That doesn't mean they want to go to trial, it simply means they're going to tell you the standard offer. When I got a ticket for this offense in NJ, the ticket was something like $85 and 2 points, and they offered me an alternative of paying something like 300-400 in fines for a plea. The place where I was ticketed was nice enough to give me that info through the municipal court clerk over the phone, so I was able to determine if I wanted to take the plea, pay the usual fine/points, or fight it in court.

As far as getting an attorney: I can't imagine how it could be worthwhile for you to do so. Most attorneys are going to charge you a minimum of $300 for a court appearance and more likely something like $500 to handle this kind of case...maybe more. If you're willing to take the guilty plea, you can almost definitely pay a lesser fine with no points (of course I'm making a lot of assumptions about you not having a bad driving record) and avoid paying some jerk like me to come to court and do what you can do on your own. The big difference for you is that you think the ticket is just bogus and I think without an attorney you'll have a hard time establishing that in a satisfactory way to a judge.

Short version: The cop is going to say you blew the light and unless you can prove you didn't or that he couldn't see you, then the judge will find him to be a reliable witness with nothing to gain from his testimony whereas you are colored by your desire to not have a ticket.

Thanks for the info. The only way I can establish the cops location is by requesting the ticket that he issued right before me (he had just let the other guy go when he pulled me over). If he indeed issue the ticket and it was for running a light, it will have the location where this occured. But this is a big IF. Also, the fact that a couple of people here said there is no discovery process in traffic courts, I am not sure if I can get such information.

I think all i could hope for is a deal by the prosecutor....

 

[compnovice]

since they are synchronized, what difference would this make?
they both turn yellow & red at the same instant.

I dont think all opposing lights are synchronized. Not sure if that intersection is though.

 

[sao123]

I dont think all opposing lights are synchronized. Not sure if that intersection is though.

I've worked at the DOT long enough to know that AASHTO maintains strict timings in all traffic control devices nationwide. It has to be a very odd interesection... (7way?) for the stop timings to be intentionally out of sync.
See publication, chapters 4-6 would interest you most.

http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop08024/fhwa_hop_08_024.pdf

 

[Whisper]

I've worked at the DOT long enough to know that AASHTO maintains strict timings in all traffic control devices nationwide. It has to be a very odd interesection... (7way?) for the stop timings to be intentionally out of sync.
See publication, chapters 4-6 would interest you most.

http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop08024/fhwa_hop_08_024.pdf

I was going to say/suggest the same thing (in much less-technical, less-referenced terms). The officer could possibly even say that as he was on the opposite side of the intersection from the one which you entered, he was in optimal position to see exactly when you left said intersection.

Honestly, I'd say that if you had time to perceive the yellow light, decide you couldn't stop, and then proceed through the intersection, odds are the light was red before you made it all the way to the other side.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

What are tha chances OP ran a red light?

 

[feralkid]

Honestly, I'd say that if you had time to perceive the yellow light, decide you couldn't stop, and then proceed through the intersection, odds are the light was red before you made it all the way to the other side.

Which is not a violation, as long as it was not red *before* he *entered* said intersection.

 

[compnovice]

What are tha chances OP ran a red light?

zero

 

[DrPizza]

Ahhh, so the cop was only 15 feet past the intersection, and you don't think he could tell you went through on a red??? (In 99% or better of all intersections, both sides change simultaneously. How can you have a registration that's a year old (implying you've driven for a year) and not realize this? Have you thought for the past year (and a week) that the oncoming traffic stopped at lights because they saw that you were stopped? Or, are they stopping slightly before you stopped, as they probably did this time too.

Also, when is the last time someone posted about "I got a ticket, but I's innocent!" on ATOT and didn't get teased?

 

[compnovice]

Ahhh, so the cop was only 15 feet past the intersection, and you don't think he could tell you went through on a red??? (In 99% or better of all intersections, both sides change simultaneously. How can you have a registration that's a year old (implying you've driven for a year) and not realize this? Have you thought for the past year (and a week) that the oncoming traffic stopped at lights because they saw that you were stopped? Or, are they stopping slightly before you stopped, as they probably did this time too.

Also, when is the last time someone posted about "I got a ticket, but I's innocent!" on ATOT and didn't get teased?

Have you ever seen a "Delayed Green" Sign? Have you ever seen an intersection where there is a left lane just for one side of the road so that on that side both the left signal and the proceeding straight is green while the other side traffic is stopped. How many years have you been driving??

A cop does not always have to be right. If you believe that a person in uniform is always right, you should go live in a police state (they need more people like you). I know I did not cross the intersection on a red and I will try to minimize the affect of the BS ticket on me.

If you read the original post, the cop did not have anything on me crossing the red light and therefore was trying to make me confess to some BS charge by saying that the camera ticket would be sent by mail. I would have been fine with that as that would be concrete proof that I did not run a red light.

 

[compnovice]

Which is not a violation, as long as it was not red *before* he *entered* said intersection.

Thanks, I will try to find out if this holds good for NJ too.

 

[DrPizza]

Have you ever seen a "Delayed Green" Sign? Have you ever seen an intersection where there is a left lane just for one side of the road so that on that side both the left signal and the proceeding straight is green while the other side traffic is stopped. How many years have you been driving??

A cop does not always have to be right. If you believe that a person in uniform is always right, you should go live in a police state (they need more people like you). I know I did not cross the intersection on a red and I will try to minimize the affect of the BS ticket on me.

If you read the original post, the cop did not have anything on me crossing the red light and therefore was trying to make me confess to some BS charge by saying that the camera ticket would be sent by mail. I would have been fine with that as that would be concrete proof that I did not run a red light.

I've been driving for nearly 28 years. I have *never* gotten a ticket for passing a red light. I've never been pulled over for passing one. And, as I stated, more than 99% of the time, both directions turn red simultaneously. The only exception to that seems to be when the opposing side has a green left hand turn signal.

Did you notice a delayed green sign at that intersection? Of course, since you didn't notice your inspection had expired, and didn't notice that your registration had expired, you must not be that observant. Plus, the cop "sneaked in" the red light ticket!

I'm just ripping on you since you said the cop was in no position to observe you running a red light. If he was within 10 yards of the intersection, he most certainly was. How do you know he was looking the other way or something? From his position that you claimed, he'd easily be able to see if the perpendicular flow of traffic had a green light. Are you claiming that you had a yellow light at the same time cross traffic had a green light?

 

[sniperruff]

So OP gets 3 traffic tickets, then gets owned on ATOT? Harsh.

 

[EagleKeeper]

since they are synchronized, what difference would this make?
they both turn yellow & red at the same instant.

I dont think all opposing lights are synchronized. Not sure if that intersection is though.

Having worked on multiple DOT projects regarding traffic signals through the country I can state clearly

Unless there is a protected left turn or funny traffic pattern; a green on the primary will have an opposing green.

The same goes for the secondary street.

If the police can see a red signal in the mirror; the chances are very good that it is red coming into the intersection from the other way also.

The only way out of such would be to go to the traffic signal authorities (depending if local, county or state signal) and have them pull the signal pattern for that time of that day to show if there was a protected turn in effect. That is the only legit way to state the you had a yellow/green and the police saw a red in the mirror.

Before you do such; go back to the intersection and see if there is a lagging turn for the direction that you were traveling at that time of day (for the day of the week). If so; then get the records pulled and fight it.


Otherwise admit that you can not judge distances; pay the fees and slow down so when you get a yellow light, you can stop safely.

You may see a yellow and feel you can continue through. At that point; you may not being paying attention to the fact that after 3-4 seconds it has turned red.

Remember the police can also see it turning yellow and you are not stopping.

 

[sao123]

Have you ever seen a "Delayed Green" Sign? Have you ever seen an intersection where there is a left lane just for one side of the road so that on that side both the left signal and the proceeding straight is green while the other side traffic is stopped. How many years have you been driving??

A cop does not always have to be right. If you believe that a person in uniform is always right, you should go live in a police state (they need more people like you). I know I did not cross the intersection on a red and I will try to minimize the affect of the BS ticket on me.

If you read the original post, the cop did not have anything on me crossing the red light and therefore was trying to make me confess to some BS charge by saying that the camera ticket would be sent by mail. I would have been fine with that as that would be concrete proof that I did not run a red light.

Even on a delayed green delayed yellow, the red is still synchronized.
If you read the chapters I pointed to you, you would have seen every traffic signal configuration which is legal to use in every intersection within these 50 states.

 

[TXHokie]

Bring Vaseline to court, it'll be less painful. I swear traffic court is the one place where you're guilty until proven innocent.

 

[rh71]

cost me $450 for a lawyer when I did 25 over the limit (bs 50mph limit). What he did was postpone the court date 3 times, which spanned a year. I don't know if the cop showed up after that, but he got it reduced to 4 pts instead of 6pts (which in NY now requires payment of $300 over 3 years in addition). I heard it was a tough court so I definitely wanted a lawyer instead of trying it myself.

It was worth it for me to fight it because of the costs involved. You, not so much, but you can always plea down on your own... show up to court and they should talk to you before you go in. That's how it apparently works here.

Anyway, lesson learned for me... it's just not worth the costs and headaches... max I go is flow of traffic and with all the red light cameras here now, I stop at yellows. Probably good for my family's health too.