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Controllers and the number of buttons?

A

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
If I made a console, I'd basically just use the Dreamcast controller design, other than made more comfortable, faster polling rate, and with a select button.

Then, for every game requiring more than 6 buttons, USB keyboard and mouse combo would be used.

I think it's ridiculous for FPSs (except for FP Adventures like Metroid Prime) to use gamepads.

Do you think that FPSs with gamepads suck? Do you think that the dreamcast controller (except with the modifications I mentioned above) is adequate for future console games?
 
i think the best controller (except fighters) is the xbox360 controller. i don't think it needs any more buttons on it at all it is just fine as is. if you have problems playing fps with gamepads you should just play them on pc instead. millions of people don't have issues with them.
 
it's amazing to me...how technology that wasn't even conceived for controlling a virtual avatar (keyboard and mouse) produced once of the most convenient and efficient control schemes.

I played CoD just fine with a regular gamepad, but it is obvious that you have exponentially less dexterity, speed, and accuracy with one.

The problem you run into is...where do you put the keyboard and mouse? It feels awkward unless you run it on a traditional ergonomic setup.

In my opinion, all modern gamepads produce similar results. Your thumbs can only produce so much fine movement.

Do this, move your hand in a circle. Now move it in all opposite directions. Your hand can relatively move in a perfect circle on a flat plane and any point in that circle because you have not only wrist control, but elbow and shoulder points as well to assist. It's very easy and very natural.

Now do that with your thumb. The only natural movement is side-to-side. Movement forwards and backwards is sort of possible, but it's limited because you basically have to dip your thumb joints up and down to make it possible, so it's a very unnatural and irregular movement.

Gamepads, by design, are NOT effective in translating smooth and accurate movement. Only with intense training can you compensate for these problems to make it workable.


If anyone doubts what I say, hook up your gamepad to your computer and run FRAPS.

Show me the following movement with a mouse:
=pointer at center of screen
=move pointer in a circular direction, rapidly increasing in radius.
=when radius nears maximum screen size, rapidly decrease radius
=stop pointer at center of screen

Now do that with a gamepad and watch how it compares.



But honestly, when I'm sitting in the couch sideways laying down, good luck getting a mouse and keyboard on my lap!
 
Xbox 360 is the best, next to the classic N64.

only con for 360 is D-Pad SUX!! Try balancing a quarter on top of a pea, and you have it.
 
Anarchist420 said:
Do you think that FPSs with gamepads suck?
Click to expand...

It's called practice. Why do people just not want to practice? It's not hard to get good on a controller. Don't like it, stick to PC and people like me who can easily use both will have fun and not limit myself to one platform.
 
Anarchist420 said:
If I made a console, I'd basically just use the Dreamcast controller design, other than made more comfortable, faster polling rate, and with a select button.

Then, for every game requiring more than 6 buttons, USB keyboard and mouse combo would be used.

I think it's ridiculous for FPSs (except for FP Adventures like Metroid Prime) to use gamepads.

Do you think that FPSs with gamepads suck? Do you think that the dreamcast controller (except with the modifications I mentioned above) is adequate for future console games?
Click to expand...

From your post, I'm drawing the conclusion that you have tried console FPS (COD, battlefield, etc) with a gamepad, could not instantly get your "boom headshot" kills, and decided that console FPSs with a gamepad sucks.

If you want a keyboard/mouse set up, stick with PC.

And going along with what Mizzou said, where would you put your keyboard/mouse? Most consoles are probably hooked up in the living room where you sit on your couch. I don't know about you, but if I had to put a keyboard/mouse onto my coffee table and hunch over to play, I'd have a pretty fucked up back after a couple days of doing so.

Bottom line is that you sound bitter about not being good at console FPSs using a gamepad. While every gamer has a different level of skill and learning ability, as long as you actually put in time/practice into you using a gamepad, you'll eventually get used to it and be somewhat adept at using it.
 
Controller design was standardized in the early 90s. Most controllers descend from the SNES. The two major exceptions being the N64 and the Wiimote. Though the latter is really just an NES controller with motion thrown in.

I don't mind playing FPS games with the gamepad. Mouse is better for aiming but the analogue stick is better for movement IMO.
 
mmntech said:
Controller design was standardized in the early 90s. Most controllers descend from the SNES. The two major exceptions being the N64 and the Wiimote. Though the latter is really just an NES controller with motion thrown in.

I don't mind playing FPS games with the gamepad. Mouse is better for aiming but the analogue stick is better for movement IMO.
Click to expand...

Except one change. The Xbox controller has the Y & X buttons switched and the A&B buttons too. The SNES design had them swapped the other way. The PS controller uses X, Square, Triangle, Circle but notice the X button is the select, yes, continue whatever button. On the Xbox the button in the same position (bottom of the diamond) is the A button which is the yes, select, go, continue whatever button. On the WiiU gamepad and pro controller the A button is still the go, continue, select, yes whatever button however it's position is swapped to where the B button would be on an Xbox controller or the circle button on a PS controller.

It's a swap that is extremely awkward to get used to when playing on a WiiU or a 3DS for that matter as it uses the same positions as the WiiU but differs from the Vita which uses the PS standard layout.

Something else I noticed Maybe someone can explain why. On some Japanese games the circle button on the PS controller is the select, go, continue, ok whatever button and not the X button as it is here in North America. Why is that? How come japanese games use circle for continue and x for back but here it's the opposite?
 
Last edited:
coldmeat said:
Dreamcast controller looks the same as the 360 controller, except worse.
Click to expand...

Ya, the shape of that thing is horrendous. Try holding one now, the back of it cuts into your fingers/hand. Just like a NES controller. I don't know how our hands didn't fall off back then, might explain the arthritis nowadays.
 
cmdrdredd said:
Something else I noticed Maybe someone can explain why. On some Japanese games the circle button on the PS controller is the select, go, continue, ok whatever button and not the X button as it is here in North America. Why is that? How come japanese games use circle for continue and x for back but here it's the opposite?
Click to expand...

Supposedly a cultural thing. Westerners associate O with powering off (power switch symbol an O with a line through it) and a checkmark for confirming. Though we "X" out of windows on a computer so who knows.
 
mmntech said:
Controller design was standardized in the early 90s. Most controllers descend from the SNES. The two major exceptions being the N64 and the Wiimote. Though the latter is really just an NES controller with motion thrown in.

I don't mind playing FPS games with the gamepad. Mouse is better for aiming but the analogue stick is better for movement IMO.
Click to expand...

actually one of the designers stated ages ago it was 'sorta" robbed from the vectrex.. they changed from a stick to a pad as the intellvision DISC didn't fail as much as the 2600 stick, but they felt the disc didnt have the right feel for 4 way games..the Vectrex square controller with stick on left and buttons on right was 'sorta" the first.

personally i prefer the duelshock.. but only as I have played since the PSone days with it.. simply used it more.. the offset thumbsticks are my sticking point.. it feels wrong. but Im sure for the generations that grew up on the 360, the offset feels better.
 
Schfifty Five said:
If you want a keyboard/mouse set up, stick with PC.

And going along with what Mizzou said, where would you put your keyboard/mouse? Most consoles are probably hooked up in the living room where you sit on your couch. I don't know about you, but if I had to put a keyboard/mouse onto my coffee table and hunch over to play, I'd have a pretty fucked up back after a couple days of doing so.

Bottom line is that you sound bitter about not being good at console FPSs using a gamepad. While every gamer has a different level of skill and learning ability, as long as you actually put in time/practice into you using a gamepad, you'll eventually get used to it and be somewhat adept at using it.
Click to expand...

They've made laptop m/kb setups. Typically something like a small 20-30 keypad like the gaming keypads for PC attached to a rigid platform with a mouse. All contoured for your lap. Similar concept to how racing wheels work.

As for bitter? Nah. I'm played FPS on console. It took awhile to get into the control scheme at first, but after that I did fine. Not a god or anything, but I'm hardly a god on the PC. The M/KB is just far more natural than the joypad for those types of games. (Plus stuff like RTS)

If anything I feel like its the console kiddies screaming "noooooooooo not options! I don't want anyone to beat me" If anything they'll probably limit mouse accel, etc to control levels.
 
mizzou said:
In my opinion, all modern gamepads produce similar results. Your thumbs can only produce so much fine movement.

Do this, move your hand in a circle. Now move it in all opposite directions. Your hand can relatively move in a perfect circle on a flat plane and any point in that circle because you have not only wrist control, but elbow and shoulder points as well to assist. It's very easy and very natural.

Now do that with your thumb. The only natural movement is side-to-side. Movement forwards and backwards is sort of possible, but it's limited because you basically have to dip your thumb joints up and down to make it possible, so it's a very unnatural and irregular movement.
Click to expand...

This is why people generally consider an arcade stick to be superior to the pad for fighting games. You can can make more accurate movements at the necessary speed with your wrist than with your thumbs.
 
mizzou said:
it's amazing to me...how technology that wasn't even conceived for controlling a virtual avatar (keyboard and mouse) produced once of the most convenient and efficient control schemes.

I played CoD just fine with a regular gamepad, but it is obvious that you have exponentially less dexterity, speed, and accuracy with one.

The problem you run into is...where do you put the keyboard and mouse? It feels awkward unless you run it on a traditional ergonomic setup.

In my opinion, all modern gamepads produce similar results. Your thumbs can only produce so much fine movement.
Click to expand...

I had a SpaceOrb 360 controller for the PC a very long time ago, it worked great with FPS games as you used your whole hand and not just your thumb to control movement. It's disappointing the device died off as if it continued to evolve and improve, it could have been the solution for gamepad FPS gamers today.
 
iluvdeal said:
I had a SpaceOrb 360 controller for the PC a very long time ago, it worked great with FPS games as you used your whole hand and not just your thumb to control movement. It's disappointing the device died off as if it continued to evolve and improve, it could have been the solution for gamepad FPS gamers today.
Click to expand...

Looked that up. To me it looks like a trackball you hold. I've tried using trackballs but they were never as precise as a regular mouse for me. I did know some old Quake 3 players who used trackballs with varying success. I guess if you work at it enough you can do it, I just went back to a mouse.

It reminds me of the ASCII Sphere that I saw once at a gamestop back in 2002 maybe.

DSCF1080.JPG
 
I'd day the more apt comparison is a 3D mouse rather than a trackball. While moving a normal mouse or trackball just controls your view in a FPS, the Space Orb control in addition to your view also gave you control of movement (fwd,back, strafe left and right, jump, crouch, etc), it was pretty cool to get all that out of one hand. It didn't beat the precision of a mouse, but then again a mouse doesn't offer that level of control and if you are looking to play from the couch without a mouse surface, the mouse isn't an option. It wasn't my intention to imply the Space Orb is/was better than a kb/mouse for a PC gamer, it's not, but it's a step up from game pads for a FPS.

Given it was released in 1996, I wish some company would put some development behind a 3D gamepad controller like the Space Orb. It was good for its day, with the advances in tech, it'd be even better today.
 
clok1966 said:
actually one of the designers stated ages ago it was 'sorta" robbed from the vectrex.. they changed from a stick to a pad as the intellvision DISC didn't fail as much as the 2600 stick, but they felt the disc didnt have the right feel for 4 way games..the Vectrex square controller with stick on left and buttons on right was 'sorta" the first.
Click to expand...

Probably the earliest modern controller though I'd say it has more in common with the NES and later Genesis controllers. Most early controllers had analogue sticks and multiple buttons. These are direct descendents of the Odyssey and arcades.

The NES was the first to introduce the digital 8-direction D-Pad. The SNES was the first to introduce the contemporary layout: D-Pad, four face buttons, two shoulder buttons. A design Sony used for the Playstation. Due to their work with Nintendo, it's likely Sony "borrowed" the design for the PS1.

Nintendo reintroduced the analogue stick in 1996 with the N64. Sony decided using a D-pad to play 3D games was indeed rubbish and released the Dual Analouge in early 1997. Two analogue sticks, D-Pad, four face buttons, two shoulder buttons, two shoulder triggers, two stick buttons. Most modern controllers are slight variations of this.
 
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