Conservative Spin Doctors Twist Reality Again...

HiveMaster

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From Townhall.com, a conservative columnist web site:
Jonah Goldberg (archive)
(printer-friendly version)

July 16, 2002

Bush is a hypocrite, so what?

We've recently learned that President Bush took a loan from a company on whose board of directors he served, even though he now wants to ban such practices. The New York Times headlined the story "Bush Calls for End to Loans of a Type He Once Received." White House spinners and spokesmen are working furiously to explain why Bush isn't being hypocritical. "They are an entirely different set of circumstances," administration spokesman Scott McClellan insisted with a faint whiff of panic.

Meanwhile, Democrats are Christmas-pony happy over Bush's troubles. Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, in his usual razor-sharp monotone, serenely observed: "It puts him (Bush) in a difficult position to criticize others."

I have only one question about Bush's hypocrisy: So what?

In a town where looking for hypocrisy is easier than looking for sand on a beach, I am consistently amazed how everyone is willing to accept that hypocrisy is always wrong, even though what we admire most in our politicians is hypocrisy. It's just that when we like the hypocrisy, we call it courage.

Take campaign finance reform. Sen. John McCain is considered one of the bravest politicians in America, at least by elite journalists who often define their jobs as the search for hypocrisy. Why is he a paladin of political courage? Because he dedicated himself to the cause of campaign finance reform. And why did he commit his eternal honor to slaying the dragon of Big Money? Because he took some himself.

McCain was part of the once-infamous Keating Five campaign finance scandal. He didn't enjoy having his integrity questioned. So, he decided to attack the system. And yet, we don't fret over McCain's "hypocrisy" for waging a battle against a system he benefited from.

But McCain's experience is different, you might say, since he felt his integrity was unfairly besmirched in the Keating scandal. Fair enough. But do I really need to call the roll of Democrats who took -and continue to take -precisely the sort of huge donations from corporations and PACs they want to outlaw?

I must have missed the condemnatory New York Times headline declaring "Democrats Call for End of Contributions of a Type they Once Received."

As often as not, our political heroes (and villains, depending on where you're coming from) are hypocrites. As attorney general, Robert Kennedy was more of a threat to civil rights than critics imagine John Ashcroft to be. It was RFK, remember, who bugged Martin Luther King. And yet, when Kennedy became a born-again liberal he became a secular messiah by many liberals.

Choose your poison. Bill Clinton was a huge supporter of feminist causes. Ronald Reagan was a former union boss. Woodrow Wilson was an unreconstructed bigot who championed human rights and democracy. Teddy Roosevelt was a flaming hypocrite who was regularly denounced by the wealthy as a "traitor to his class" for his attacks on the Trusts and other so-called "malefactors of great wealth." Richard Nixon was supposedly a bigoted and anti-Semitic conservative who hired and relied on Jews, supported Israel and pretty much made affirmative action into the quota system liberals consider sacrosanct.

When you sit back and think about it, we largely define political courage as the willingness to contradict yourself. Richard Nixon's trip to China, Bill Clinton's denunciation of Sister Soulja, President Bush's sop to the steel industry: These overtures were all hailed as bold and brave by those who agreed with them and hypocritical by those who didn't.

When Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon, the liberal establishment exploded with charges of hypocrisy. "This blundering intervention," The New York Times thundered, "is a body blow to the president's own credibility."

Calling the pardon "a betrayal of the public trust," Ted Kennedy asked, "Is there one system of justice for the average citizen and another system for the high and mighty?" This from the man who finagled his way out of a homicide charge. Talk about hypocrisy.

A quarter century later, Ford received the Profiles in Courage award for his pardon decision. The award is supposed to go to politicians who make brave but unpopular decisions. Yet when Ted Kennedy gave him the award, The New York Times applauded, hypocritically.

Indeed, if you wade through the list of award recipients, you'll find many hypocrites. Among them, former Connecticut governor Lowell Weicker received the award in 1992 for forcing an income tax on voters after swearing he wouldn't. If conservatives gave out the award instead of unreconstructed liberals, we'd have to call it the Profiles in Hypocrisy Award.

Now, I don't think hypocrisy is good, but it's not nearly as terrible as we're taught to believe. If hypocrisy were the most terrible thing in the world, we would demand that overeaters endorse gluttony. So is Bush a hypocrite for wanting to ban a legal and accepted practice he -and thousands of others -benefited from? Of course. But you still need to explain why that's bad.

Basically, what this guy is saying is, when Dems are hypocrites it was bad. But now that Bush and co. are showing their hypocritical ways, suddenly hypocrisy is not only not bad, but it is undefinable!!!

Talk about situational ethics (something conservatives always charge liberals with), this kinda goes with everything else done in politics...protect your man in power, even if you look rediculous doing it. But conservatives take it to a new level with articles like this one, they say they are proud of the rotten things they do and challenge you to take on their stance.

Well, I for one have never stood for hypocrisy. I did not stand for it with Clinton (lying scumbag in his personal life) and I won't stand for it with Bush (lying scumbag about his personal life). It is worse though, when you have people like Bush who wants to suddenly declare activities he once participated in as "bad things," yet refuses to take responsibility for commiting the same bad acts. That, ladies and gents, is hypocrisy. And hypocrisy smells.
 

AU Tiger

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Dec 26, 1999
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Originally posted by: Tominator
I think you are doing the spinning.;)


Agreed.

I didn't see it as criticism of democrats. I believe the author was pointing out that just because someone was involved in something in the past doesn't mean they can't be against it now.
 

DigDug

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Mar 21, 2002
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It may not be shifting the blame to the democrats as the thread author sugggests, but it is indeed spin.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: AU Tiger
Originally posted by: Tominator
I think you are doing the spinning.;)


Agreed.

I didn't see it as criticism of democrats. I believe the author was pointing out that just because someone was involved in something in the past doesn't mean they can't be against it now.

Indeed! If a serialkiller shows repent he/she should not be locked up anymore!
 

crystal

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Nov 5, 1999
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Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: AU Tiger
Originally posted by: Tominator
I think you are doing the spinning.;)


Agreed.

I didn't see it as criticism of democrats. I believe the author was pointing out that just because someone was involved in something in the past doesn't mean they can't be against it now.

Indeed! If a serialkiller shows repent he/she should not be locked up anymore!

Oh wow, suddenly an idea/belief that get change over time get compare to a sick killer.
rolleye.gif
BTW, can you honestly stated that you go through lives without any change in your beliefs or values?

 

308nato

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Feb 10, 2002
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Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: AU Tiger
Originally posted by: Tominator
I think you are doing the spinning.;)


Agreed.

I didn't see it as criticism of democrats. I believe the author was pointing out that just because someone was involved in something in the past doesn't mean they can't be against it now.

Indeed! If a serialkiller shows repent he/she should not be locked up anymore!


Bad analogy. Murder was and still is illegal. If the killing was done while it was legal and the killer then supported laws against it later that would be different.

And what does repentance have to do with anything?

 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
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suddenly hypocrisy is not only not bad, but it is undefinable!!!
Suddenly? I guess it's only "suddenly" because you've "suddenly" ventured into political awareness.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
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sorry hivemaster

seems to me the article you pasted just says ALL POLITICIANS are hypocritical. he even uses the republican GOD Reagan as an eg of hypocrisy.
 

Tominator

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Oct 9, 1999
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The word hypocrisy has been used so much it has no meaning anylonger.

That's what moral relativists want anyway.:|
 

HiveMaster

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Apr 11, 2002
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Quote

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suddenly hypocrisy is not only not bad, but it is undefinable!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Suddenly? I guess it's only "suddenly" because you've "suddenly" ventured into political awareness.

Obviously, you have not yet ventured into sarcasm awareness.



The word hypocrisy has been used so much it has no meaning anylonger.

That's what moral relativists want anyway

So, when Democrats play at being moral relativists, it is bad...what does that make conservatives who do the same thing?

Furthermore, I am not spinning anything...if it makes you feel better to think that way, so be it.


Quote

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Originally posted by: Tominator
I think you are doing the spinning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Agreed.

I didn't see it as criticism of democrats. I believe the author was pointing out that just because someone was involved in something in the past doesn't mean they can't be against it now.

No, the author is trying to justify Bush's hypocricy by saying that everyone does it, so it is ok if he does it. This coming from the party of "Moral Superiority." Isn't it wonderfull to be able to hold the mantle of moral superiority at will, and set it down when you are caught with your hand in the cookie jar?
 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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No, the author is trying to justify Bush's hypocricy by saying that everyone does it, so it is ok if he does it. This coming from the party of "Moral Superiority." Isn't it wonderfull to be able to hold the mantle of moral superiority at will, and set it down when you are caught with your hand in the cookie jar?

There you go again....because a freedom is abused and someone that used that freedom in the past is now having influence over limiting that freedom that is not hypocricy. If everytime a freedom were abused we demanded our law-makers to do something about it we soon would have no freedom at all.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
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Bush's account for it hasn't been forthright either. He signed a document a month within the firm before he sold the shares committing that he wouldn't sell his shares for 6 months since they were going to do an ipo.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
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Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
suddenly hypocrisy is not only not bad, but it is undefinable!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Suddenly? I guess it's only "suddenly" because you've "suddenly" ventured into political awareness.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Obviously, you have not yet ventured into sarcasm awareness.
Well, I can usually detect sarcasm without the help of emoticons. Your sarcasm was unsubtle and pronounced your indignance that this writer could defend the hypocrisy of the administration through moral relativity. My sarcasm of you, however, just pointed out that both the hypocrisy of politicians and the hypocrisy of writers defending them is nothing new. Sorry if I was too subtle for you.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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Bush's account for it hasn't been forthright either. He signed a document a month within the firm before he sold the shares committing that he wouldn't sell his shares for 6 months since they were going to do an ipo.

Aside from the lack of proper grammar which makes that quote relatively difficult to comprehend, it's also lacking in any factual evidence. Care to provide evidence from a legitimate source?
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: Corn
Bush's account for it hasn't been forthright either. He signed a document a month within the firm before he sold the shares committing that he wouldn't sell his shares for 6 months since they were going to do an ipo.
Aside from the lack of proper grammar which makes that quote relatively difficult to comprehend, it's also lacking in any factual evidence. Care to provide evidence from a legitimate source?


I stand corrected, he promised to the company he wouldn't sell his shares for 6 months 2 1/2 months before he sold them.

The Post article quotes a Houston attorney and expert in securities law as saying the signing of the lockup agreement "undercuts" Bush's lawyers' explanation for the early sale of the Harken stock.

This is 2 1/2 weeks before Harken announced "unexpected losses" which sent the stock from $4 to $1 within the year. Its extremely ironic that he filed his SEC papers 34 weeks late regarding this.

You get a point tho for proofing my post. Sometimes a little sleep does wonders for grammar. :p
 

HiveMaster

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Apr 11, 2002
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Aside from the lack of proper grammar which makes that quote relatively difficult to comprehend, it's also lacking in any factual evidence. Care to provide evidence from a legitimate source?

That should be: Aside from the lack of proper grammarcomma which makes that quote relatively difficult to comprehend, it's also lacking in any factual evidence. Care to provide evidence from a legitimate source?

Those in glass houses....
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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From the article:

The story in the Washington Post quotes White House spokesman Dan Bartlett as saying Monday that the lockout letter was "made irrelevant and obsolete" by the time Bush sold his stock in 1990 because the public stock offering it affected never went through.

Indeed, if the company decided not to offer the IPO, then why hold this signatory letter against him?
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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Buttmaster sez.......

That should be: Aside from the lack of proper grammarcomma which makes that quote relatively difficult to comprehend, it's also lacking in any factual evidence. Care to provide evidence from a legitimate source?

Those in glass houses....

Actually, my grammer is correct. Because you say it isn't, doesn't make it so.
 

HiveMaster

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Apr 11, 2002
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There you go again....because a freedom is abused and someone that used that freedom in the past is now having influence over limiting that freedom that is not hypocricy. If everytime a freedom were abused we demanded our law-makers to do something about it we soon would have no freedom at all.

How do you know that GWB did not "abuse" a priveledge? When the person draws a line in the sand, he will be looked at with a crooked eye when he is percieved to have crossed that line himself in the past.

If Clinton made a speech against infidelity, the conservatives would be thundering from the heavens about his hypocrisy. As if they needed an excuse.

This situational ethics is nothing new in conservative circles, they just have never talked about it so openly as was done in this article. That was my point.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: Corn
From the article: The story in the Washington Post quotes White House spokesman Dan Bartlett as saying Monday that the lockout letter was "made irrelevant and obsolete" by the time Bush sold his stock in 1990 because the public stock offering it affected never went through.
Indeed, if the company decided not to offer the IPO, then why hold this signatory letter against him?

There was no need to do it once the earnings statements were released because it made the ipo irrevelant, given the condition of the company and of the stock price.

However Bush sold these share 2 1/2 weeks before the public release of this information, which the "SEC concluded that Bush did not have nonpublic information when he sold the shares". This is bs because Bush did most likely have insight to the earnings shortfall, and the stock price wouldn't have tanked when the news was released if it wasn't "nonpublic".

And if Bush really didn't know about this insider information, why wouldn't he seek a release from this legal document which the company was in effect still under the same business conditions as to which precipitated the reasons to sign it.

I don't have proof that he didn't seek a release from it, but there is no proof revealed that he did either. It all adds to the contradictions and holes in his story tho.
 

Corn

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Nov 12, 1999
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Speaking of glass houses:

....undefinable.............rediculous...........commiting.........And....

indefinable..........ridiculous..........committing....... Beginning a sentence with a conjunction is also bad form.

I didn't ridicule him because of his grammar, I was simply pointing out it was difficult to understand that which he was trying to convey.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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How do you know that GWB did not "abuse" a priveledge?

Chuck Conoway, former CEO of Kmart is the posterboy for "abuse of privilege" by the fact he took a few million dollar "loan", similar to that taken by Bush, just prior Kmart claiming bankruptcy, and was able to convince the board to forgive that debt. Bush repaid his loan with interest.

I'll leave it to you to determine which one of the above was "abuse of privilege".
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: Corn
How do you know that GWB did not "abuse" a priveledge?
Chuck Conoway, former CEO of Kmart is the posterboy for "abuse of privilege" by the fact he took a few million dollar "loan", similar to that taken by Bush, just prior Kmart claiming bankruptcy, and was able to convince the board to forgive that debt. Bush repaid his loan with interest. I'll leave it to you to determine which one of the above was "abuse of privilege".

From this example, Conaway abused the priveledge (albeit the integrity of their Board should be in question with that)...and Bush didn't.

However, Bush broke the law by violating insider trading rules and could also have been held accountable to his agreement with his firm to not sell shares. None of these were priveledges and just because someone doesn't get held accountable (i.e. your dad hires your prosecutor - the SEC chairman), that doesn't mean he wasn't in violation.

Your Kmart example is irrevelant to Bush's situation tho. His biggest issue wasn't about his loan.