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Conscripting Doctors - Next logical step

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TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
2
0
The answer to health care is simple. Give the job to the military. Expand the VA to take care of the whole nation. Bring back the draft to build and staff millions of new hospitals in cities and mobile hospitals to travel rural areas or transport folk to specialty centers. Deliver health care for free. Start in the ghettos and work out to.

The supply of Doctors is carefully manipulated by lobbyists for doctors. Break their back by increasing the supply to the point where a military salary is economically attractive to those doctors who suddenly find themselves unemployed. They will leap at the chance to serve the public just like all those folk who join the army and marines.

This is scary but I've said largely the same thing on here before. Two things though

- You really want to expand DOD health care, not VA. I grew up on the DOD system and it's quite good

- We don't need a draft just de-subsidize Stafford loans in general. Offer an economic incentive and require a certain service term and you'll fulfill your quota easily.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,754
6,766
126
Um, both are true. There is no cognitive dissonance except for your denial of the reality right in front of your face. This is really simple, like middle-school level logic. It's just like how in the near future social security will simultaneously have to reduce benefits while bankrupting the country. When you have more people dependent on the system than the producers can support, the system goes bankrupt and the people stop receiving benefits.

Middle-school level logic is usually the situation where one reasons logically from middle-level school facts like you are doing, rather than the misapplication of logic itself. You aren't stupid. You just don't reason from real data. You apply truthiness to your data. The facts about social security are created by partisan hacks and fed to people.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
The answer to health care is simple. Give the job to the military. Expand the VA to take care of the whole nation. Bring back the draft to build and staff millions of new hospitals in cities and mobile hospitals to travel rural areas or transport folk to specialty centers. Deliver health care for free. Start in the ghettos and work out to.

The supply of Doctors is carefully manipulated by lobbyists for doctors. Break their back by increasing the supply to the point where a military salary is economically attractive to those doctors who suddenly find themselves unemployed. They will leap at the chance to serve the public just like all those folk who join the army and marines.

Obviously you've never served in the military, it's a different training ground for doctors, surgeons, and dentists. You get the great/good with the bad.

Though their would be one major benefit that would reduce costs, the inability to sue for malpractice.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,754
6,766
126
This is scary but I've said largely the same thing on here before. Two things though

- You really want to expand DOD health care, not VA. I grew up on the DOD system and it's quite good

- We don't need a draft just de-subsidize Stafford loans in general. Offer an economic incentive and require a certain service term and you'll fulfill your quota easily.

Thank you. I was told the VA is under the DOD or think I was so told. I would go for a draft for non killing military service for both sexes for young people. It would give all Americans a common experience and bond and the jobs I see needing done are huge. It would also provide every American with the feeling he or she has served, that the built what others will benefit from. No amount of self hate will be able to fully deny that fact. It's good for the soul.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
There is no need for anyone to be conscripted. We (our government) need to bust the AMA cartel which is artificially limiting supply of doctors by keeping down the number of medical schools.

You do realize that doctors are licensed by the states, yes? What's stopping states from taking steps to expand the number of doctors, with or without the AMA?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,754
6,766
126
Obviously you've never served in the military, it's a different training ground for doctors, surgeons, and dentists. You get the great/good with the bad.

Though their would be one major benefit that would reduce costs, the inability to sue for malpractice.

The military has military doctors. Your facts are ok but the application is faulty, I think. Military doctors are subject to military justice. There are things like oath duty professionalism and dedication that are more effective motivators for morality than fear. Anybody born with a normal sense of empathy can have that empathy fostered by moral training and the fostering of self respect. Self respect itself is furthered by capacity and being a doctor implies that one has acquired a rather valuable capacity.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Thank you. I was told the VA is under the DOD or think I was so told. I would go for a draft for non killing military service for both sexes for young people. It would give all Americans a common experience and bond and the jobs I see needing done are huge. It would also provide every American with the feeling he or she has served, that the built what others will benefit from. No amount of self hate will be able to fully deny that fact. It's good for the soul.

I agree, for most serving the military has great benefits. It can provide many worthy life experiences like team building, working with people of all races/gender, and instills self worth.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
The military has military doctors. Your facts are ok but the application is faulty, I think. Military doctors are subject to military justice. There are things like oath duty professionalism and dedication that are more effective motivators for morality than fear. Anybody born with a normal sense of empathy can have that empathy fostered by moral training and the fostering of self respect. Self respect itself is furthered by capacity and being a doctor implies that one has acquired a rather valuable capacity.

Yes, doctors are subject to military justice and unless the malpractice was proven to be an intentional act they will not be punished. Even with that being said no service member or their family has the ability to sue the government/military branch for malpractice.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
-snip-

By the way does anyone ever notice the cognitive dissonance of complaining that the Affordable Care Act will bankrupt us all while simultaneously complaining about how woefully insufficient the payments it makes for medical treatment are? The only way this makes sense is if you think the preferable situation is for people to simply forego medical treatment if they are ill, which is pretty monstrous.

You are laboring mightily to misunderstand the article. Why?

It's not difficult, I'll help. The author suggests:

1. Obamacare will expand demand for HC services. It can do this by expanding access to testing etc, so called preventative care. Only you are claiming that ill people not seek treatment. (Although the later may happen if anticipated delays in care due to limited supply and expanded demand occur.)

2. Many physicians are already declining to accept Medicare and Medicaid patients. (I would note that Obamacare expands Medicaid enrollment. But what good is a Medicaid card if no physician is available to treat you?)

3. Thus the author identifies the problem: More people seeking access to medical services but fewer resources available to serve them (physicians dropping medicare/Medicaid patients). What is the solution?

4. Increasing fees for Medicare/Medicaid to encourage more physicians to see medicare/Medicaid patients isn't a feasible solution due to financial limitations.

5. Another possible solution is using nurses etc instead of physicians to increase supply. However, the author suggests that this will be insufficient. (I would suggest that it's not possible as Medicare/Medicaid and their proponents will complain that they're getting second class care etc.)

6. Finally, the author suggests that the Democrats will pursue a policy of forcing physicians to accept Medicare/Medicaid patients. I see little-to-no evidence suggesting that Progressives wouldn't pursue this policy; however getting it passed into law and gaining acceptance of physicians is a different matter.

BTW: There is no "cognitive dissonance" regarding concerns that Medicaid could "bankrupt" us while cutting fees at the same time. It merely requires the simple realization that sufficient expansion of enrollment, even with reduced fees, can be problematic financially. (And of course, Medicaid expansion is increasing under Obamacare.) (I also note that no where did the author raise the boggy man of "bankruptcy. That's an invention by you.)

Fern
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Considering that overwhelming majorities of Americans think that everyone who is ill should have access to medical care, this position is nonsensical.

Proof for this claim? Especially proof that they believe this on a practical level and not a "I think unicorns and elves should provide free health care to poor people."

Or is this another one of those things like Obamacare. Where people love all the benefits, and hate all the paying for the benefits.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,754
6,766
126
Yes, doctors are subject to military justice and unless the malpractice was proven to be an intentional act they will not be punished. Even with that being said no service member or their family has the ability to sue the government/military branch for malpractice.

Malpractice law exists to help protect a patient and or his medical insurer against the potential greed, incompetence or fraud of those providing medical services. In the military the doctor doesn't work for profit and the patient doesn't pay eliminating any need for a contract between them. Both the doctor and the patient serve the country each according to his or her own contract with the nation. Legal obligations and responsibilities then are between the doctor and the military and the patient and the military and justice will issue there.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,754
6,766
126
You are laboring mightily to misunderstand the article. Why?

It's not difficult, I'll help. The author suggests:

1. Obamacare will expand demand for HC services. It can do this by expanding access to testing etc, so called preventative care. Only you are claiming that ill people not seek treatment. (Although the later may happen if anticipated delays in care due to limited supply and expanded demand occur.)

2. Many physicians are already declining to accept Medicare and Medicaid patients. (I would note that Obamacare expands Medicaid enrollment. But what good is a Medicaid card if no physician is available to treat you?)

3. Thus the author identifies the problem: More people seeking access to medical services but fewer resources available to serve them (physicians dropping medicare/Medicaid patients). What is the solution?

4. Increasing fees for Medicare/Medicaid to encourage more physicians to see medicare/Medicaid patients isn't a feasible solution due to financial limitations.

5. Another possible solution is using nurses etc instead of physicians to increase supply. However, the author suggests that this will be insufficient. (I would suggest that it's not possible as Medicare/Medicaid and their proponents will complain that they're getting second class care etc.)

6. Finally, the author suggests that the Democrats will pursue a policy of forcing physicians to accept Medicare/Medicaid patients. I see little-to-no evidence suggesting that Progressives wouldn't pursue this policy; however getting it passed into law and gaining acceptance of physicians is a different matter.

BTW: There is no "cognitive dissonance" regarding concerns that Medicaid could "bankrupt" us while cutting fees at the same time. It merely requires the simple realization that sufficient expansion of enrollment, even with reduced fees, can be problematic financially. (And of course, Medicaid expansion is increasing under Obamacare.) (I also note that no where did the author raise the boggy man of "bankruptcy. That's an invention by you.)

Fern

Help me remember the term for attempts to rationally proportion medical care. 'Death panels' is what I remember.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Malpractice law exists to help protect a patient and or his medical insurer against the potential greed, incompetence or fraud of those providing medical services. In the military the doctor doesn't work for profit and the patient doesn't pay eliminating any need for a contract between them. Both the doctor and the patient serve the country each according to his or her own contract with the nation. Legal obligations and responsibilities then are between the doctor and the military and the patient and the military and justice will issue there.

I served 12 years in the Navy and it was made very clear that neither the service personnel nor their family could sue the military for malpractice or death of the service member.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Interesting article. Though frankly, I never understood the boogeyman of ACA all forcing us to wait longer for a doctor's visit. As is I wait 2 weeks minimum to see a doctor, as mine is busy because he's so good, on top of being part-time. Even if wait times for appointments increased by 50%, does that extra week kill me or make me less healthy in some meaningful way? I don't believe so, though there must be data on that somewhere. Plus, when I really needed to, I've been able to see my doctor within 2 days for what I thought was a minor medical emergency, and I have a feeling lots of doctor's offices will bend to patient's will like that.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
I normally can see my doctors within a week and if needed it can be the same day or following morning. I've also got xrays, ultrasound, and CT scan the same day. It took overnight to get a MRI.

Kelsey Seybold is a top notch medical service company in Houston
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Depends on the doctor usually. My doctor is awesome, and in very high demand, so sometimes it takes a while to get an appointment. But he's worth waiting for if it's anything serious, since he gets things right the first time. If it's something minor I just see whoever is available at the clinic.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
We treat doctors like gods in this country, and pay them accordingly. We will never have affordable health care in this country until medical workers are paid what normal people make. Nurses here make over a hundred thousand per year. Doctors make way more.
IMHO all the employees at the hospital make too much.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
We treat doctors like gods in this country, and pay them accordingly. We will never have affordable health care in this country until medical workers are paid what normal people make. Nurses here make over a hundred thousand per year. Doctors make way more.
IMHO all the employees at the hospital make too much.

Those people have the responsibility of making life and death decisions, something few have the emotional and intelectual capacity to do well, have to pay more than almost any other field, spend more time paying more for education and lose years in potential income accumulating debt so you can pretend they have jobs like you, assuming you have one.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Those people have the responsibility of making life and death decisions, something few have the emotional and intelectual capacity to do well, have to pay more than almost any other field, spend more time paying more for education and lose years in potential income accumulating debt so you can pretend they have jobs like you, assuming you have one.

I used to work as a mechanical engineer, and the weapons systems I worked on had people's lives depending on my actions. My salary was a small fraction of what a doctor makes.
I know many people with tremendous educations and abilities, and none of them make as much as a doctor.
Everyone in medicine is overpaid!
Pharmacists make over $100k in California.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
We treat doctors like gods in this country, and pay them accordingly. We will never have affordable health care in this country until medical workers are paid what normal people make. Nurses here make over a hundred thousand per year. Doctors make way more.
IMHO all the employees at the hospital make too much.



Oh really,

http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/05/smallbusiness/doctors_broke/index.htm

EW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Doctors in America are harboring an embarrassing secret: Many of them are going broke.This quiet reality, which is spreading nationwide, is claiming a wide range of casualties, including family physicians, cardiologists and oncologists.
Industry watchers say the trend is worrisome. Half of all doctors in the nation operate a private practice. So if a cash crunch forces the death of an independent practice, it robs a community of a vital health care resource.


"A lot of independent practices are starting to see serious financial issues," said Marc Lion, CEO of Lion & Company CPAs, LLC, which advises independent doctor practices about their finances.
Doctors list shrinking insurance reimbursements, changing regulations, rising business and drug costs among the factors preventing them from keeping their practices afloat. But some experts counter that doctors' lack of business acumen is also to blame.


Loans to make payroll: Dr. William Pentz, 47, a cardiologist with a Philadelphia private practice, and his partners had to tap into their personal assets to make payroll for employees last year. "And we still barely made payroll last paycheck," he said. "Many of us are also skimping on our own pay."



Pentz said recent steep 35% to 40% cuts in Medicare reimbursements for key cardiovascular services, such as stress tests and echocardiograms, have taken a substantial toll on revenue. "Our total revenue was down about 9% last year compared to 2010," he said.





"These cuts have destabilized private cardiology practices," he said. "A third of our patients are on Medicare. So these Medicare cuts are by far the biggest factor. Private insurers follow Medicare rates. So those reimbursements are going down as well."


Pentz is thinking about an out. "If this continues, I might seriously consider leaving medicine," he said. "I can't keep working this way."
Also on his mind, the impending 27.4% Medicare pay cut for doctors. "If that goes through, it will put us under," he said.



Federal law requires that Medicare reimbursement rates be adjusted annually based on a formula tied to the health of the economy. That law says rates should be cut every year to keep Medicare financially sound.
Although Congress has blocked those cuts from happening 13 times over the past decade, most recently on Dec. 23 with a two-month temporary "patch," this dilemma continues to haunt doctors every year.


Beau Donegan, senior executive with a hospital cancer center in Newport Beach, Calif., is well aware of physicians' financial woes.
"Many are too proud to admit that they are on the verge of bankruptcy," she said. "These physicians see no way out of the downward spiral of reimbursement, escalating costs of treating patients and insurance companies deciding when and how much they will pay them."


Donegan knows an oncologist "with a stellar reputation in the community" who hasn't taken a salary from his private practice in over a year. He owes drug companies $1.6 million, which he wasn't reimbursed for.
Dr. Neil Barth is that oncologist. He has been in the top 10% of oncologists in his region, according to U.S. News Top Doctors' ranking. Still, he is contemplating personal bankruptcy.


That move could shutter his 31-year-old clinical practice and force 6,000 cancer patients to look for a new doctor.
Changes in drug reimbursements have hurt him badly. Until the mid-2000's, drugs sales were big profit generators for oncologists.



In oncology, doctors were allowed to profit from drug sales. So doctors would buy expensive cancer drugs at bulk prices from drugmakers and then sell them at much higher prices to their patients.



"I grew up in that system. I was spending $1.5 million a month on buying treatment drugs," he said. In 2005, Medicare revised the reimbursement guidelines for cancer drugs, which effectively made reimbursements for many expensive cancer drugs fall to less than the actual cost of the drugs
"Our reimbursements plummeted," Barth said.



Still, Barth continued to push ahead with innovative research, treating patients with cutting-edge expensive therapies, accepting patients who were underinsured only to realize later that insurers would not pay him back for much of his care.


"I was $3.2 million in debt by mid 2010," said Barth. "It was a sickening feeling. I could no longer care for patients with catastrophic illnesses without scrutinizing every penny first."


He's since halved his debt and taken on a second job as a consultant to hospitals. But he's still struggling and considering closing his practice in the next six months.


"The economics of providing health care in this country need to change. It's too expensive for doctors," he said. "I love medicine. I will find a way to refinance my debt and not lose my home or my practice."
If he does declare bankruptcy, he loses all of it and has to find a way to start over at 60. Until then, he's turning away new patients whose care he can no longer subsidize.


"I recently got a call from a divorced woman with two kids who is unemployed, house in foreclosure with advanced breast cancer," he said. "The moment has come to this that you now say, 'sorry, we don't have the capacity to care for you.' "


Small business 101: A private practice is like a small business. "The only thing different is that a third party, and not the customer, is paying for the service," said Lion.


"Many times I shake my head," he said. "Doctors are trained in medicine but not how to run a business." His biggest challenge is getting doctors to realize where and how their profits are leaking.


"On average, there's a 10% to 15% profit leak in a private practice," he said. Much of that is tied to money owed to the practice by patients or insurers. "This is also why they are seeing a cash crunch."


Dr. Mike Gorman, a family physician in Logandale, Nev., recently took out an SBA loan to keep his practice running and pay his five employees.
"It is embarrassing," he said. "Doctors don't want to talk about being in debt." But he's planning a new strategy to deal with his rising business expenses and falling reimbursements.



"I will see more patients, but I won't check all of their complaints at one time," he explained. "If I do, insurance will bundle my reimbursement into one payment." Patients will have to make repeat visits -- an arrangement that he acknowledges is "inconvenient."
"This system pits doctor against patient," he said. "But it's the only way to beat the system and get paid."
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
We treat doctors like gods in this country, and pay them accordingly. We will never have affordable health care in this country until medical workers are paid what normal people make. Nurses here make over a hundred thousand per year. Doctors make way more.
IMHO all the employees at the hospital make too much.

lol, ignorant.

I used to work as a mechanical engineer, and the weapons systems I worked on had people's lives depending on my actions. My salary was a small fraction of what a doctor makes.
I know many people with tremendous educations and abilities, and none of them make as much as a doctor.
Everyone in medicine is overpaid!
Pharmacists make over $100k in California.

Working as an engineer on weapons systems isn't even close to daily medical management decisions. Not even in the same ballpark. To suggest otherwise is simply silly.

There is certainly income inequality in medicine, but claiming everyone in medicine is overpaid is absolutely absurd. Especially today. Physicians are making significantly less money than they made in the 80's/early 90's and paying even significantly more money for education. Try doing undergrad, med school, residency, and then practice in today's environment when there are people like you who think doctors are over-appreciated and overpaid. What a joke.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
I used to work as a mechanical engineer, and the weapons systems I worked on had people's lives depending on my actions. My salary was a small fraction of what a doctor makes.
I know many people with tremendous educations and abilities, and none of them make as much as a doctor.
Everyone in medicine is overpaid!
Pharmacists make over $100k in California.

You had nothing compared to physicians responsibilities. You sat in some chair designing something which isn't going to die in your hands. You get to fix your mistakes. You don't have to wonder why the child died you couldn't save. You couldn't begin to do the job. Clearly you are overpaid in comparison. Hell, my wife has more education than you and virtually every physician I know but she gets it. Puts her ahead of you.