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Conscripting Doctors - Next logical step

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
http://nationalreview.com/article/365522/drafting-docs-kevin-d-williamson

The economics is pretty straightforward. Higher prices for medical services are built into the Obamacare model: If you inject a ton of money — or many, many tons of money, if you were weighing it out in pallets of hundred-dollar bills — into the demand side of the equation but do little or nothing on the supply side, then you expect higher prices as an expanding river of money chases an amount of goods that is not expanding at the same rate, or that is in some cases fixed or even declining. higher demand + limited supply = higher prices. Even the Obama administration knows this, which is why one of the health-care bill’s few nods to reality was a plan to raise compensation rates for Medicaid temporarily, in hopes of enticing more doctors to take Medicaid patients, which precious few of them are willing to do. The idea was to bring Medicaid rates into alignment with Medicare rates, rather than forcing physicians to take a 40 percent haircut for the privilege of treating poor people instead of old people.

The problem is that Medicare rates stink, too. Depending on which study you want to believe, somewhere between one-third and one-half of primary-care physicians already are restricting the number of new Medicare patients they will see. Many are dropping out of the program entirely. After losing hundreds of millions of dollars treating Medicare patients, the Mayo Clinic’s general-care facility in Glendale, Ariz., stopped taking new Medicare patients in 2009. In Texas, doctors are in open revolt against Medicare, with hundreds dumping the program completely over the past few years.

Obamacare promises to make this worse by proposing to further reduce physicians’ fees at the same time it is proposing to raise them. The Obamacare price-fixing authority, the Independent Payment Advisory Board, is explicitly charged with reducing Medicare spending, but it is also legally forbidden to do so by reducing benefits, which leaves physicians’ compensation as pretty much the only meaningful source of cuts. So while higher demand + limited supply = higher prices, higher demand + limited supply + price controls = shortages. Massachusetts discovered as much when, after it enacted its state-level version of the ACA, waiting times to see doctors increased dramatically and many physicians simply refused to participate in the program. So long as doctors are free to decide which patients they will see, and free to decide where they will practice, this is going to be a stumbling block for the central planners in Washington.

There are a couple of ways that you can get around that problem. The first is by abandoning most attempts at cost savings. That’s not such a far-fetched idea; it is, in fact, exactly what we’ve been doing with Medicare for many years now, passing the so-called doc fix to put off legally required spending cuts in the program. But you can only do that for so long. The federal government and the states face real spending restraints: They can tax, borrow, and, at the federal level, print money in great heaping quantities, but there are limits, and health-care spending is on track to bump up against those limits in a painful fashion.

You can also try to expand the supply of providers by transferring responsibilities from doctors to nurse practitioners and the like. (“If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor . . . but you won’t see your doctor — your actual treatment will be provided by a nurse practitioner.”) Allowing a larger role for nurse practitioners and other non-physician specialists is a good idea in and of itself, and would have been worthwhile in the absence of Obamacare — if you want prices to go down, expand the supply. But short of a radical deregulation of medical practice (which would have to happen state by state), it is not going to be sufficient to reverse the trends set into motion by the ACA, especially given that so much Medicare compensation is tied to physician-delivered services.

The other thing we can do is draft the doctors, conscripting them into accepting Medicare and Medicaid patients, and those patients with new Obamacare policies that inevitably will end up looking a lot like Medicaid. Kathleen Murphy, a Democratic candidate for the Virginia state house, proposed exactly that during a recent candidates’ forum. Hers is the voice of the future. And it is not without precedent: In Canada, it was long illegal for doctors to accept payment for services that patients would otherwise receive for “free” (there’s no such thing as free health care) under the country’s national health-care system, though in reality that law was only half-heartedly enforced.

As radical as conscription seems, it is logically consistent with the Democrats’ approach to health-care “reform” going back to the Johnson administration, an approach that treats patients and doctors alike as villeins to be apportioned by the lords in Washington. The main obstacle to reducing Medicare and Medicaid spending is the fact that physicians have a choice about whether to participate in the programs. In the long run, the fact that physicians have a choice about whom they see and where they practice is the most significant challenge to the full implementation of Obamacare. The logical thing — politically and economically — is to eliminate that choice. You don’t have to formally nationalize the health-care industry; you just nationalize 40 percent of each physician’s practice and call it his “fair share."

Doctors, like all licensed professionals, are utterly at the mercy of the state. Obamacare effectively has put the federal government and the states in the insurance business (for the healthy, young, and middle class for the first time), which means that the powers that control physicians’ licensing now have economic interests that are adverse to those of the doctors themselves. It is easy to imagine yet another episode of “fair share” rhetoric being deployed to conscript doctors in trying to make this unworkable mess work. Senator Warren’s totalitarian analysis — that the government has a claim on your property in the present and future because it exerted a claim on the property of others in the past — is entirely applicable here: Ambulances move on public roads, the government supports medical research, etc. You didn’t build that. So here’s your federally mandated portion of money-losing Medicare and Medicaid patients. They won’t call it conscription; they’ll call it shared sacrifice.

Kevin Williamson is one of the best writers for NRO.

The bolded is the most riling part of the column. I've always had the impression that when a government program makes economic problems worse, the rationalization is that the problem was with the interested parties (doctors and patients being greedy, for example), not with the arbitrary standards set forth by the intellectual titans in DC.

For example, I have two friends who can't get employed full-time where I'm employed because the company has instituted a hiring freeze...because Obamacare has made them skittish. Naturally, this isn't Obamacare's fault. The company's just being greedy. The company should be interested in employing people first, and staying in business second.

When leftists accuse conservatives of seeking to impose their morality on others, it's downright comedic.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
29,926
30,762
136
If this actually comes up as a serious proposal I would be opposed to it. But otherwise this is just more what if fear mongering.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
There is no need for anyone to be conscripted. We (our government) need to bust the AMA cartel which is artificially limiting supply of doctors by keeping down the number of medical schools.
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
0
Yes, this is absolutely logical. The evil socialism of health care means forcing doctors to work at gunpoint, just like they do in every other first world country that has free health care for everyone.

Also, no doctors exist in those countries, because doctors have a sacred entitlement to get rich for helping people (unlike teachers or policemen, somehow), and thus they move abroad or retire to avoid the horror of "treating poor people instead of old people."

That's why America's health care was the best in the world before the ACA ruined things. See?
private-health-care-spending-per-person.jpg

Nolte_amenable_mortality_large.gif

us%20health%20care%20costs-thumb-600x326-47611.png
 
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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
There is no need for anyone to be conscripted. We (our government) need to bust the AMA cartel which is artificially limiting supply of doctors by keeping down the number of medical schools.

Medical schools are opening every day. The bottleneck isn't medical schools, it's residency training positions which are far, far more fixed. It also wouldn't hurt to reduce the cost of medical school, the debt is absurd.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,984
55,389
136
Gee, I never thought a magazine that put this cover out after Obama's election would have a bad thing to say about him:

kurtz.obama.gif


By the way does anyone ever notice the cognitive dissonance of complaining that the Affordable Care Act will bankrupt us all while simultaneously complaining about how woefully insufficient the payments it makes for medical treatment are? The only way this makes sense is if you think the preferable situation is for people to simply forego medical treatment if they are ill, which is pretty monstrous.

There will be no conscription of doctors. Period.
 
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theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Gee, I never thought a magazine that put this cover out after Obama's election would have a bad thing to say about him:

http://images.politico.com/global/kurtz.obama.gif[img]

By the way does anyone ever notice the cognitive dissonance of complaining that the Affordable Care Act will bankrupt us all while simultaneously complaining about how woefully insufficient the payments it makes for medical treatment are? The only way this makes sense is if you think the preferable situation is for people to simply forego medical treatment if they are ill, which is pretty monstrous.

There will be no conscription of doctors. Period.[/QUOTE]

Intellectual consistency is not a strength of the right. They are bashing their own plan after all, just because Obama decided to use it.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
If this actually comes up as a serious proposal I would be opposed to it. But otherwise this is just more what if fear mongering.


What's the difference between requiring a doctor to accept medicaid patients at 40% of the actual cost to treat them in order to practice, versus conscripting a doctor to work for free?

There will be no conscription of doctors. Period.

We already conscript doctors. The principle is the same, it's only a matter of degree.
 

BUnit1701

Senior member
May 1, 2013
853
1
0
Gee, I never thought a magazine that put this cover out after Obama's election would have a bad thing to say about him:

kurtz.obama.gif


By the way does anyone ever notice the cognitive dissonance of complaining that the Affordable Care Act will bankrupt us all while simultaneously complaining about how woefully insufficient the payments it makes for medical treatment are? The only way this makes sense is if you think the preferable situation is for people to simply forego medical treatment if they are ill, which is pretty monstrous.

There will be no conscription of doctors. Period.

Yes, makes me wonder 'where is all the money going'? My guess is to line the pockets of Insurance company CEOs and DC politicians.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,984
55,389
136
What's the difference between requiring a doctor to accept medicaid patients at 40% of the actual cost to treat them in order to practice, versus conscripting a doctor to work for free? The principle is the same.

Doctors are not required to accept Medicaid, nor is there any plan to require acceptance of Medicaid patients as a condition of practicing medicine.

Just how far they had to reach in order to make this sort of claim is pretty obvious in that the best citation they could find to make such a statement was a candidate for a state level house seat. If you want to go down that road and see what Republican candidates for state level house seats have said it will get very ugly very quickly.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Just how far they had to reach in order to make this sort of claim is pretty obvious in that the best citation they could find to make such a statement was a candidate for a state level house seat.

And Canada.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
By the way does anyone ever notice the cognitive dissonance of complaining that the Affordable Care Act will bankrupt us all while simultaneously complaining about how woefully insufficient the payments it makes for medical treatment are? The only way this makes sense is if you think the preferable situation is for people to simply forego medical treatment if they are ill, which is pretty monstrous.
.

Um, both are true. There is no cognitive dissonance except for your denial of the reality right in front of your face. This is really simple, like middle-school level logic. It's just like how in the near future social security will simultaneously have to reduce benefits while bankrupting the country. When you have more people dependent on the system than the producers can support, the system goes bankrupt and the people stop receiving benefits.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,751
6,766
126
Conservatives have the exact same morality as liberals only less so whereas conservatives have a several additional moralities that liberals don't much have at all, so it's always conservatives that try to impose their morality on liberals. You deceive yourself with an altered reality story because you don't know the facts. This is cause by ego pride, the unwillingness to face ego painful truths like the one I just described. These facts have all been scientifically measured and verified in peer reviewed scientific papers. The acceptance of delusional beliefs as factual because they are believed, truthiness, is the foundation of bigotry and why conservative thinking is equivalent to it. The analysis that you bolded is correct. What you won't call your ego selfishness is murder of the aged and the weak just as you won't call pro life paternalistic hatred of women who choose to control their own bodies.

You know what justice and fairness are and believe in them in the abstract but you won't see them when they affect your ego. Liberals aren't going to force their morality down you throat. They are going to make you eat your own, you fucking hypocrites. Your economic well being in this country exists because you're allowed parasitize a viable system created by past generations. And just like they did willingly in many cases, we are going to tap the blood you suck to pay the bills to maintain that economic viability.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,984
55,389
136
Um, both are true. There is no cognitive dissonance except for your denial of the reality right in front of your face. This is really simple, like middle-school level logic. It's just like how in the near future social security will simultaneously have to reduce benefits while bankrupting the country. When you have more people dependent on the system than the producers can support, the system goes bankrupt and the people stop receiving benefits.

It's definitely middle-school level logic. Please go read my passage again and try to apply it.

- Conservatives say that the ACA will cost too much money and bankrupt America.
- Medicaid is among the cheapest ways to dispense medical care.
- If you don't want to expand Medicaid to more people you have two choices.
- Don't treat sick people.
- Treat them in ways that are more expensive than Medicaid.

Considering that overwhelming majorities of Americans think that everyone who is ill should have access to medical care, this position is nonsensical.

Aren't you the guy that said that having a lower percentage of your population paying taxes made health care more expensive? I think after that we can kind of dispense with the idea that you're capable of middle school level logic.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Conservatives have the exact same morality as liberals only less so whereas conservatives have a several additional moralities that liberals don't much have at all, so it's always conservatives that try to impose their morality on liberals. You deceive yourself with an altered reality story because you don't know the facts. This is cause by ego pride, the unwillingness to face ego painful truths like the one I just described. These facts have all been scientifically measured and verified in peer reviewed scientific papers. The acceptance of delusional beliefs as factual because they are believed, truthiness, is the foundation of bigotry and why conservative thinking is equivalent to it. The analysis that you bolded is correct. What you won't call your ego selfishness is murder of the aged and the weak just as you won't call pro life paternalistic hatred of women who choose to control their own bodies.

You know what justice and fairness are and believe in them in the abstract but you won't see them when they affect your ego. Liberals aren't going to force their morality down you throat. They are going to make you eat your own, you fucking hypocrites. Your economic well being in this country exists because you're allowed parasitize a viable system created by past generations. And just like they did willingly in many cases, we are going to tap the blood you suck to pay the bills to maintain that economic viability.

Well at least Moonbeam is honest with himself and just comes out and says it, "I want to confiscate your property and force you to work for free because that is my definition of justice". Why don't you just admit that is what you want eskimospy instead of tap-dancing around the truth?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
Interesting Fact: Healthcare seems cheaper in Canada in comparison to the US, but the difference is spent on Gunmen holding a Gun to the head of Doctors.



True Fact, no BS.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,751
6,766
126
The answer to health care is simple. Give the job to the military. Expand the VA to take care of the whole nation. Bring back the draft to build and staff millions of new hospitals in cities and mobile hospitals to travel rural areas or transport folk to specialty centers. Deliver health care for free. Start in the ghettos and work out to.

The supply of Doctors is carefully manipulated by lobbyists for doctors. Break their back by increasing the supply to the point where a military salary is economically attractive to those doctors who suddenly find themselves unemployed. They will leap at the chance to serve the public just like all those folk who join the army and marines.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Well, odds are if or when it happens, it won't be called conscription.


You can make it a requirement of their license to take on all patients like public defenders who are conscripted by the judge.