Congressman Ron Paul - the end of dollar hegemony

morkinva

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 1999
3,656
0
71
This guy has the right idea, and I'm grateful to him for putting this into the Congressional record. I only wish there were more like him. I'm not sure I agree with him about the fiat money system, I think so long as it's debt-based we are in trouble.

See the video here

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr021506.htm">HON. RON PAUL OF TEXAS
Before the U.S. House of Representatives</a>

February 15, 2006


The End of Dollar Hegemony

A hundred years ago it was called ?dollar diplomacy.? After World War II, and especially after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989, that policy evolved into ?dollar hegemony.? But after all these many years of great success, our dollar dominance is coming to an end.

It has been said, rightly, that he who holds the gold makes the rules. In earlier times it was readily accepted that fair and honest trade required an exchange for something of real value.

First it was simply barter of goods. Then it was discovered that gold held a universal attraction, and was a convenient substitute for more cumbersome barter transactions. Not only did gold facilitate exchange of goods and services, it served as a store of value for those who wanted to save for a rainy day.

Though money developed naturally in the marketplace, as governments grew in power they assumed monopoly control over money. Sometimes governments succeeded in guaranteeing the quality and purity of gold, but in time governments learned to outspend their revenues. New or higher taxes always incurred the disapproval of the people, so it wasn?t long before Kings and Caesars learned how to inflate their currencies by reducing the amount of gold in each coin-- always hoping their subjects wouldn?t discover the fraud. But the people always did, and they strenuously objected.

This helped pressure leaders to seek more gold by conquering other nations. The people became accustomed to living beyond their means, and enjoyed the circuses and bread. Financing extravagances by conquering foreign lands seemed a logical alternative to working harder and producing more. Besides, conquering nations not only brought home gold, they brought home slaves as well. Taxing the people in conquered territories also provided an incentive to build empires. This system of government worked well for a while, but the moral decline of the people led to an unwillingness to produce for themselves. There was a limit to the number of countries that could be sacked for their wealth, and this always brought empires to an end. When gold no longer could be obtained, their military might crumbled. In those days those who held the gold truly wrote the rules and lived well.

That general rule has held fast throughout the ages. When gold was used, and the rules protected honest commerce, productive nations thrived. Whenever wealthy nations-- those with powerful armies and gold-- strived only for empire and easy fortunes to support welfare at home, those nations failed.

Today the principles are the same, but the process is quite different. Gold no longer is the currency of the realm; paper is. The truth now is: ?He who prints the money makes the rules?-- at least for the time being. Although gold is not used, the goals are the same: compel foreign countries to produce and subsidize the country with military superiority and control over the monetary printing presses.

Since printing paper money is nothing short of counterfeiting, the issuer of the international currency must always be the country with the military might to guarantee control over the system. This magnificent scheme seems the perfect system for obtaining perpetual wealth for the country that issues the de facto world currency. The one problem, however, is that such a system destroys the character of the counterfeiting nation?s people-- just as was the case when gold was the currency and it was obtained by conquering other nations. And this destroys the incentive to save and produce, while encouraging debt and runaway welfare.

The pressure at home to inflate the currency comes from the corporate welfare recipients, as well as those who demand handouts as compensation for their needs and perceived injuries by others. In both cases personal responsibility for one?s actions is rejected.

When paper money is rejected, or when gold runs out, wealth and political stability are lost. The country then must go from living beyond its means to living beneath its means, until the economic and political systems adjust to the new rules-- rules no longer written by those who ran the now defunct printing press.

?Dollar Diplomacy,? a policy instituted by William Howard Taft and his Secretary of State Philander C. Knox, was designed to enhance U.S. commercial investments in Latin America and the Far East. McKinley concocted a war against Spain in 1898, and (Teddy) Roosevelt?s corollary to the Monroe Doctrine preceded Taft?s aggressive approach to using the U.S. dollar and diplomatic influence to secure U.S. investments abroad. This earned the popular title of ?Dollar Diplomacy.? The significance of Roosevelt?s change was that our intervention now could be justified by the mere ?appearance? that a country of interest to us was politically or fiscally vulnerable to European control. Not only did we claim a right, but even an official U.S. government ?obligation? to protect our commercial interests from Europeans.

This new policy came on the heels of the ?gunboat? diplomacy of the late 19th century, and it meant we could buy influence before resorting to the threat of force. By the time the ?dollar diplomacy? of William Howard Taft was clearly articulated, the seeds of American empire were planted. And they were destined to grow in the fertile political soil of a country that lost its love and respect for the republic bequeathed to us by the authors of the Constitution. And indeed they did. It wasn?t too long before dollar ?diplomacy? became dollar ?hegemony? in the second half of the 20th century.

This transition only could have occurred with a dramatic change in monetary policy and the nature of the dollar itself.

Congress created the Federal Reserve System in 1913. Between then and 1971 the principle of sound money was systematically undermined. Between 1913 and 1971, the Federal Reserve found it much easier to expand the money supply at will for financing war or manipulating the economy with little resistance from Congress-- while benefiting the special interests that influence government.

Dollar dominance got a huge boost after World War II. We were spared the destruction that so many other nations suffered, and our coffers were filled with the world?s gold. But the world chose not to return to the discipline of the gold standard, and the politicians applauded. Printing money to pay the bills was a lot more popular than taxing or restraining unnecessary spending. In spite of the short-term benefits, imbalances were institutionalized for decades to come.

The 1944 Bretton Woods agreement solidified the dollar as the preeminent world reserve currency, replacing the British pound. Due to our political and military muscle, and because we had a huge amount of physical gold, the world readily accepted our dollar (defined as 1/35th of an ounce of gold) as the world?s reserve currency. The dollar was said to be ?as good as gold,? and convertible to all foreign central banks at that rate. For American citizens, however, it remained illegal to own. This was a gold-exchange standard that from inception was doomed to fail.

The U.S. did exactly what many predicted she would do. She printed more dollars for which there was no gold backing. But the world was content to accept those dollars for more than 25 years with little question-- until the French and others in the late 1960s demanded we fulfill our promise to pay one ounce of gold for each $35 they delivered to the U.S. Treasury. This resulted in a huge gold drain that brought an end to a very poorly devised pseudo-gold standard.

It all ended on August 15, 1971, when Nixon closed the gold window and refused to pay out any of our remaining 280 million ounces of gold. In essence, we declared our insolvency and everyone recognized some other monetary system had to be devised in order to bring stability to the markets.

Amazingly, a new system was devised which allowed the U.S. to operate the printing presses for the world reserve currency with no restraints placed on it-- not even a pretense of gold convertibility, none whatsoever! Though the new policy was even more deeply flawed, it nevertheless opened the door for dollar hegemony to spread.

Realizing the world was embarking on something new and mind boggling, elite money managers, with especially strong support from U.S. authorities, struck an agreement with OPEC to price oil in U.S. dollars exclusively for all worldwide transactions. This gave the dollar a special place among world currencies and in essence ?backed? the dollar with oil. In return, the U.S. promised to protect the various oil-rich kingdoms in the Persian Gulf against threat of invasion or domestic coup. This arrangement helped ignite the radical Islamic movement among those who resented our influence in the region. The arrangement gave the dollar artificial strength, with tremendous financial benefits for the United States. It allowed us to export our monetary inflation by buying oil and other goods at a great discount as dollar influence flourished.

This post-Bretton Woods system was much more fragile than the system that existed between 1945 and 1971. Though the dollar/oil arrangement was helpful, it was not nearly as stable as the pseudo gold standard under Bretton Woods. It certainly was less stable than the gold standard of the late 19th century.

During the 1970s the dollar nearly collapsed, as oil prices surged and gold skyrocketed to $800 an ounce. By 1979 interest rates of 21% were required to rescue the system. The pressure on the dollar in the 1970s, in spite of the benefits accrued to it, reflected reckless budget deficits and monetary inflation during the 1960s. The markets were not fooled by LBJ?s claim that we could afford both ?guns and butter.?

Once again the dollar was rescued, and this ushered in the age of true dollar hegemony lasting from the early 1980s to the present. With tremendous cooperation coming from the central banks and international commercial banks, the dollar was accepted as if it were gold.

Fed Chair Alan Greenspan, on several occasions before the House Banking Committee, answered my challenges to him about his previously held favorable views on gold by claiming that he and other central bankers had gotten paper money-- i.e. the dollar system-- to respond as if it were gold. Each time I strongly disagreed, and pointed out that if they had achieved such a feat they would have defied centuries of economic history regarding the need for money to be something of real value. He smugly and confidently concurred with this.

In recent years central banks and various financial institutions, all with vested interests in maintaining a workable fiat dollar standard, were not secretive about selling and loaning large amounts of gold to the market even while decreasing gold prices raised serious questions about the wisdom of such a policy. They never admitted to gold price fixing, but the evidence is abundant that they believed if the gold price fell it would convey a sense of confidence to the market, confidence that they indeed had achieved amazing success in turning paper into gold.

Increasing gold prices historically are viewed as an indicator of distrust in paper currency. This recent effort was not a whole lot different than the U.S. Treasury selling gold at $35 an ounce in the 1960s, in an attempt to convince the world the dollar was sound and as good as gold. Even during the Depression, one of Roosevelt?s first acts was to remove free market gold pricing as an indication of a flawed monetary system by making it illegal for American citizens to own gold. Economic law eventually limited that effort, as it did in the early 1970s when our Treasury and the IMF tried to fix the price of gold by dumping tons into the market to dampen the enthusiasm of those seeking a safe haven for a falling dollar after gold ownership was re-legalized.

Once again the effort between 1980 and 2000 to fool the market as to the true value of the dollar proved unsuccessful. In the past 5 years the dollar has been devalued in terms of gold by more than 50%. You just can?t fool all the people all the time, even with the power of the mighty printing press and money creating system of the Federal Reserve.

Even with all the shortcomings of the fiat monetary system, dollar influence thrived. The results seemed beneficial, but gross distortions built into the system remained. And true to form, Washington politicians are only too anxious to solve the problems cropping up with window dressing, while failing to understand and deal with the underlying flawed policy. Protectionism, fixing exchange rates, punitive tariffs, politically motivated sanctions, corporate subsidies, international trade management, price controls, interest rate and wage controls, super-nationalist sentiments, threats of force, and even war are resorted to?all to solve the problems artificially created by deeply flawed monetary and economic systems.

In the short run, the issuer of a fiat reserve currency can accrue great economic benefits. In the long run, it poses a threat to the country issuing the world currency. In this case that?s the United States. As long as foreign countries take our dollars in return for real goods, we come out ahead. This is a benefit many in Congress fail to recognize, as they bash China for maintaining a positive trade balance with us. But this leads to a loss of manufacturing jobs to overseas markets, as we become more dependent on others and less self-sufficient. Foreign countries accumulate our dollars due to their high savings rates, and graciously loan them back to us at low interest rates to finance our excessive consumption.

It sounds like a great deal for everyone, except the time will come when our dollars-- due to their depreciation-- will be received less enthusiastically or even be rejected by foreign countries. That could create a whole new ballgame and force us to pay a price for living beyond our means and our production. The shift in sentiment regarding the dollar has already started, but the worst is yet to come.

The agreement with OPEC in the 1970s to price oil in dollars has provided tremendous artificial strength to the dollar as the preeminent reserve currency. This has created a universal demand for the dollar, and soaks up the huge number of new dollars generated each year. Last year alone M3 increased over $700 billion.

The artificial demand for our dollar, along with our military might, places us in the unique position to ?rule? the world without productive work or savings, and without limits on consumer spending or deficits. The problem is, it can?t last.

Price inflation is raising its ugly head, and the NASDAQ bubble-- generated by easy money-- has burst. The housing bubble likewise created is deflating. Gold prices have doubled, and federal spending is out of sight with zero political will to rein it in. The trade deficit last year was over $728 billion. A $2 trillion war is raging, and plans are being laid to expand the war into Iran and possibly Syria. The only restraining force will be the world?s rejection of the dollar. It?s bound to come and create conditions worse than 1979-1980, which required 21% interest rates to correct. But everything possible will be done to protect the dollar in the meantime. We have a shared interest with those who hold our dollars to keep the whole charade going.

Greenspan, in his first speech after leaving the Fed, said that gold prices were up because of concern about terrorism, and not because of monetary concerns or because he created too many dollars during his tenure. Gold has to be discredited and the dollar propped up. Even when the dollar comes under serious attack by market forces, the central banks and the IMF surely will do everything conceivable to soak up the dollars in hope of restoring stability. Eventually they will fail.

Most importantly, the dollar/oil relationship has to be maintained to keep the dollar as a preeminent currency. Any attack on this relationship will be forcefully challenged?as it already has been.

In November 2000 Saddam Hussein demanded Euros for his oil. His arrogance was a threat to the dollar; his lack of any military might was never a threat. At the first cabinet meeting with the new administration in 2001, as reported by Treasury Secretary Paul O?Neill, the major topic was how we would get rid of Saddam Hussein-- though there was no evidence whatsoever he posed a threat to us. This deep concern for Saddam Hussein surprised and shocked O?Neill.

It now is common knowledge that the immediate reaction of the administration after 9/11 revolved around how they could connect Saddam Hussein to the attacks, to justify an invasion and overthrow of his government. Even with no evidence of any connection to 9/11, or evidence of weapons of mass destruction, public and congressional support was generated through distortions and flat out misrepresentation of the facts to justify overthrowing Saddam Hussein.

There was no public talk of removing Saddam Hussein because of his attack on the integrity of the dollar as a reserve currency by selling oil in Euros. Many believe this was the real reason for our obsession with Iraq. I doubt it was the only reason, but it may well have played a significant role in our motivation to wage war. Within a very short period after the military victory, all Iraqi oil sales were carried out in dollars. The Euro was abandoned.

In 2001, Venezuela?s ambassador to Russia spoke of Venezuela switching to the Euro for all their oil sales. Within a year there was a coup attempt against Chavez, reportedly with assistance from our CIA.

After these attempts to nudge the Euro toward replacing the dollar as the world?s reserve currency were met with resistance, the sharp fall of the dollar against the Euro was reversed. These events may well have played a significant role in maintaining dollar dominance.

It?s become clear the U.S. administration was sympathetic to those who plotted the overthrow of Chavez, and was embarrassed by its failure. The fact that Chavez was democratically elected had little influence on which side we supported.

Now, a new attempt is being made against the petrodollar system. Iran, another member of the ?axis of evil,? has announced her plans to initiate an oil bourse in March of this year. Guess what, the oil sales will be priced Euros, not dollars.

Most Americans forget how our policies have systematically and needlessly antagonized the Iranians over the years. In 1953 the CIA helped overthrow a democratically elected president, Mohammed Mossadeqh, and install the authoritarian Shah, who was friendly to the U.S. The Iranians were still fuming over this when the hostages were seized in 1979. Our alliance with Saddam Hussein in his invasion of Iran in the early 1980s did not help matters, and obviously did not do much for our relationship with Saddam Hussein. The administration announcement in 2001 that Iran was part of the axis of evil didn?t do much to improve the diplomatic relationship between our two countries. Recent threats over nuclear power, while ignoring the fact that they are surrounded by countries with nuclear weapons, doesn?t seem to register with those who continue to provoke Iran. With what most Muslims perceive as our war against Islam, and this recent history, there?s little wonder why Iran might choose to harm America by undermining the dollar. Iran, like Iraq, has zero capability to attack us. But that didn?t stop us from turning Saddam Hussein into a modern day Hitler ready to take over the world. Now Iran, especially since she?s made plans for pricing oil in Euros, has been on the receiving end of a propaganda war not unlike that waged against Iraq before our invasion.

It?s not likely that maintaining dollar supremacy was the only motivating factor for the war against Iraq, nor for agitating against Iran. Though the real reasons for going to war are complex, we now know the reasons given before the war started, like the presence of weapons of mass destruction and Saddam Hussein?s connection to 9/11, were false. The dollar?s importance is obvious, but this does not diminish the influence of the distinct plans laid out years ago by the neo-conservatives to remake the Middle East. Israel?s influence, as well as that of the Christian Zionists, likewise played a role in prosecuting this war. Protecting ?our? oil supplies has influenced our Middle East policy for decades.

But the truth is that paying the bills for this aggressive intervention is impossible the old fashioned way, with more taxes, more savings, and more production by the American people. Much of the expense of the Persian Gulf War in 1991 was shouldered by many of our willing allies. That?s not so today. Now, more than ever, the dollar hegemony-- it?s dominance as the world reserve currency-- is required to finance our huge war expenditures. This $2 trillion never-ending war must be paid for, one way or another. Dollar hegemony provides the vehicle to do just that.

For the most part the true victims aren?t aware of how they pay the bills. The license to create money out of thin air allows the bills to be paid through price inflation. American citizens, as well as average citizens of Japan, China, and other countries suffer from price inflation, which represents the ?tax? that pays the bills for our military adventures. That is until the fraud is discovered, and the foreign producers decide not to take dollars nor hold them very long in payment for their goods. Everything possible is done to prevent the fraud of the monetary system from being exposed to the masses who suffer from it. If oil markets replace dollars with Euros, it would in time curtail our ability to continue to print, without restraint, the world?s reserve currency.

It is an unbelievable benefit to us to import valuable goods and export depreciating dollars. The exporting countries have become addicted to our purchases for their economic growth. This dependency makes them allies in continuing the fraud, and their participation keeps the dollar?s value artificially high. If this system were workable long term, American citizens would never have to work again. We too could enjoy ?bread and circuses? just as the Romans did, but their gold finally ran out and the inability of Rome to continue to plunder conquered nations brought an end to her empire.

The same thing will happen to us if we don?t change our ways. Though we don?t occupy foreign countries to directly plunder, we nevertheless have spread our troops across 130 nations of the world. Our intense effort to spread our power in the oil-rich Middle East is not a coincidence. But unlike the old days, we don?t declare direct ownership of the natural resources-- we just insist that we can buy what we want and pay for it with our paper money. Any country that challenges our authority does so at great risk.

Once again Congress has bought into the war propaganda against Iran, just as it did against Iraq. Arguments are now made for attacking Iran economically, and militarily if necessary. These arguments are all based on the same false reasons given for the ill-fated and costly occupation of Iraq.

Our whole economic system depends on continuing the current monetary arrangement, which means recycling the dollar is crucial. Currently, we borrow over $700 billion every year from our gracious benefactors, who work hard and take our paper for their goods. Then we borrow all the money we need to secure the empire (DOD budget $450 billion) plus more. The military might we enjoy becomes the ?backing? of our currency. There are no other countries that can challenge our military superiority, and therefore they have little choice but to accept the dollars we declare are today?s ?gold.? This is why countries that challenge the system-- like Iraq, Iran and Venezuela-- become targets of our plans for regime change.

Ironically, dollar superiority depends on our strong military, and our strong military depends on the dollar. As long as foreign recipients take our dollars for real goods and are willing to finance our extravagant consumption and militarism, the status quo will continue regardless of how huge our foreign debt and current account deficit become.

But real threats come from our political adversaries who are incapable of confronting us militarily, yet are not bashful about confronting us economically. That?s why we see the new challenge from Iran being taken so seriously. The urgent arguments about Iran posing a military threat to the security of the United States are no more plausible than the false charges levied against Iraq. Yet there is no effort to resist this march to confrontation by those who grandstand for political reasons against the Iraq war.

It seems that the people and Congress are easily persuaded by the jingoism of the preemptive war promoters. It?s only after the cost in human life and dollars are tallied up that the people object to unwise militarism.

The strange thing is that the failure in Iraq is now apparent to a large majority of American people, yet they and Congress are acquiescing to the call for a needless and dangerous confrontation with Iran.

But then again, our failure to find Osama bin Laden and destroy his network did not dissuade us from taking on the Iraqis in a war totally unrelated to 9/11.

Concern for pricing oil only in dollars helps explain our willingness to drop everything and teach Saddam Hussein a lesson for his defiance in demanding Euros for oil.

And once again there?s this urgent call for sanctions and threats of force against Iran at the precise time Iran is opening a new oil exchange with all transactions in Euros.

Using force to compel people to accept money without real value can only work in the short run. It ultimately leads to economic dislocation, both domestic and international, and always ends with a price to be paid.

The economic law that honest exchange demands only things of real value as currency cannot be repealed. The chaos that one day will ensue from our 35-year experiment with worldwide fiat money will require a return to money of real value. We will know that day is approaching when oil-producing countries demand gold, or its equivalent, for their oil rather than dollars or Euros. The sooner the better.



 

DotheDamnTHing

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2004
2,795
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good read...rather long but hits the point on the head, with respect to the longterm tenability of both the american dollar and military
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Wow. Just WOW.
That was a very interesting read.
In fact EVERYONE here at ATOT or better yet everyone in the country should read this.
It is not, imo, completely valid in any sense. But it does give a very good history of our monetary system though many of its conclusions are incorrect, once again, imo, and in the opinions of many if not most other economists.
The main failure of the piece is to account for the fact that gold is indeed VALUELESS. It is only our FAITH in gold that gives it value. Just like the worlds faith in the dollar.
He is much to harsh in calling the systems that have evolved frauds. In fact there is no system where we could have an actual physical item as the unit of currency. Nothing serves as valuable to all, in real terms, like a bushel of wheat, or an automobile. It would be impractical to use those items as a unit of currency. Oil is the closest thing we have and it is not tenable as currency for many reasons.
The dollar does have real value in that it will buy certain amounts of certain things. For example a bushel of wheat may cost 5 dollars in the US and 4.79 in another country. This gives us a relative value for the dollar that allows us to have an international monetary system.
If Paul is trying to get us back on a precious metal standard he is really barking up the wrong tree.

He is correct, and its the major point as I see it, that in order for the dollar to remain strong and to remain the accepted unit of currency the US economy needs operate within the limits that is PERCEIVED as strong and within limits where the actual number of dollars remains within a certain range of what it will actually buy.
So yes, economists are right when they want to argue its a scam. And other economists are right that its not a scam.
What IS important is that the US does not stray to far outside what is perceived and actually is the dollars actual worth.
And that is where we are with huge deficits, crushing shortfalls coming up, huge defense outlays and erosion of the system of manufacturing where the reduction in ACTUAL goods produced in this country has taken us.

Nice post. Thanks
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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0
Originally posted by: techs
The main failure of the piece is to account for the fact that gold is indeed VALUELESS. It is only our FAITH in gold that gives it value. Just like the worlds faith in the dollar.
He is much to harsh in calling the systems that have evolved frauds. In fact there is no system where we could have an actual physical item as the unit of currency. Nothing serves as valuable to all, in real terms, like a bushel of wheat, or an automobile. It would be impractical to use those items as a unit of currency. Oil is the closest thing we have and it is not tenable as currency for many reasons.
The dollar does have real value in that it will buy certain amounts of certain things. For example a bushel of wheat may cost 5 dollars in the US and 4.79 in another country. This gives us a relative value for the dollar that allows us to have an international monetary system.
If Paul is trying to get us back on a precious metal standard he is really barking up the wrong tree.

According to that logic everything is valueless. Value is something that is in the mind of the actor. If you believe something is valueless, speak for yourself.

Value is not an issue when it comes to gold. Many people see value in gold, and this value is internationally recognized in every country on the planet.

But value is not really the issue. The issue is really an epistemological one.

My question to you is brief:

What exactly is a dollar?

Keep in mind that there is no legal definition of a dollar. And if you don't believe me you can try to look it up in Black's Law Dictionary.

The difference between gold and dollars has nothing to do with value. It has everything to do with the fact that gold is something that has a real definition. It is an element on the periodic table. Anyone can identify gold (even perhaps by using scientific equipment) because it is something that is real. Hence, we have indisputable knowledge of what constitutes gold and what does not.

Dollars, however, truly are an imaginary construct. We cannot know anything about them. They completely fail the test of epistemologically valid objects.

So my question to you is: do you not find it bizarre that the entire basis of our financial lives is based on an epistemologically bankrupt construct?
 

nobody2you

Junior Member
Dec 8, 2005
15
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Gold is used in electronic and many other applications. It isn't valueless. People also use it as jewelry.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
money = medium for exchange.

it is not practical to carry around a wallet full of oil, hence we use dollars.

his point is dead on tho. the problem comes in that the fed constantly prints more dollars without justification.

it's like a company that keeps issuing stock well beyond the obvious value of the company. at some point people will stop buying the stock. dollars really are stock in the US Govt.
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
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I knew this Years ago, and most of it holds true. That is the main reason we invaded Iraq.

Its our monotary policy. Oil markets keep the need for dollar reserves to be held.


One more reason why, the search for more fuel efficient cars wont happen here in the US.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Thanks for the article.

An all consuming service job economy....ayup.

*sigh*
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
3,899
0
0
Originally posted by: techs
The main failure of the piece is to account for the fact that gold is indeed VALUELESS. It is only our FAITH in gold that gives it value. Just like the worlds faith in the dollar.
He is much to harsh in calling the systems that have evolved frauds. In fact there is no system where we could have an actual physical item as the unit of currency. Nothing serves as valuable to all, in real terms, like a bushel of wheat, or an automobile. It would be impractical to use those items as a unit of currency. Oil is the closest thing we have and it is not tenable as currency for many reasons.
The dollar does have real value in that it will buy certain amounts of certain things. For example a bushel of wheat may cost 5 dollars in the US and 4.79 in another country. This gives us a relative value for the dollar that allows us to have an international monetary system.
If Paul is trying to get us back on a precious metal standard he is really barking up the wrong tree.

No, he's not suggesting anything. He's warning the dangers of what he believes will happen, mainly that the Dollar will probably not be the dominant currency in the world. He's asking what will happen when other countries call in their loans and don't want dollars?

He's saying the United States is so fervent in keeping the dollar as the de-facto standard, they are willing to go to war or have CIA led coups with any country that dare ask for payment in Euros.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
0
0
Originally posted by: smashp
I knew this Years ago, and most of it holds true. That is the main reason we invaded Iraq. Its our monotary policy. Oil markets keep the need for dollar reserves to be held.

Yep. He forgot to mention NK, who's switch to the Euro wasn't a huge hit to us, but helps to show the way the winds are blowing.

One more reason why, the search for more fuel efficient cars wont happen here in the US.

I disagree. When you back your currency with something that will run out, investing in technologies to make it run out later is actually beneficial.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: techs
The main failure of the piece is to account for the fact that gold is indeed VALUELESS. It is only our FAITH in gold that gives it value. Just like the worlds faith in the dollar.
He is much to harsh in calling the systems that have evolved frauds. In fact there is no system where we could have an actual physical item as the unit of currency. Nothing serves as valuable to all, in real terms, like a bushel of wheat, or an automobile. It would be impractical to use those items as a unit of currency. Oil is the closest thing we have and it is not tenable as currency for many reasons.
The dollar does have real value in that it will buy certain amounts of certain things. For example a bushel of wheat may cost 5 dollars in the US and 4.79 in another country. This gives us a relative value for the dollar that allows us to have an international monetary system.
If Paul is trying to get us back on a precious metal standard he is really barking up the wrong tree.

According to that logic everything is valueless. Value is something that is in the mind of the actor. If you believe something is valueless, speak for yourself.

Value is not an issue when it comes to gold. Many people see value in gold, and this value is internationally recognized in every country on the planet.

But value is not really the issue. The issue is really an epistemological one.

My question to you is brief:

What exactly is a dollar?

Keep in mind that there is no legal definition of a dollar. And if you don't believe me you can try to look it up in Black's Law Dictionary.

The difference between gold and dollars has nothing to do with value. It has everything to do with the fact that gold is something that has a real definition. It is an element on the periodic table. Anyone can identify gold (even perhaps by using scientific equipment) because it is something that is real. Hence, we have indisputable knowledge of what constitutes gold and what does not.

Dollars, however, truly are an imaginary construct. We cannot know anything about them. They completely fail the test of epistemologically valid objects.

So my question to you is: do you not find it bizarre that the entire basis of our financial lives is based on an epistemologically bankrupt construct?
Yes. I was saying that it is intrinsically valueless. Not valueless in the real world.
Yes, we give gold value, because people value gold.
And that leads to, the dollar has value BECAUSE PEOPLE VALUE THE DOLLAR JUST AS PEOPLE VALUE GOLD.
I say the difference between dollars and gold is only one of degree.
Due to golds long history of value its gained universal acceptance as having value.
The same as the dollar.
And we need to keep the dollar universally accepted as having value within a certain range.
Which is why sound economic policy is necessary.
Not tax cut and spend and shift our economy overseas.
The real fear is that by going so far outside the accepted criteria for a stable economy that the dollar will lose its accepted value.
And then the U.S.(and the world) is screwed.
 

GalvanizedYankee

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2003
6,986
0
0
Thank you OP. Very good read indeed.

Watched the whole video also. One heck of a brain jogger.

This is what Bush is refering to, when he says we are protecting an American way of life.

...Galvanized
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: techs

Yes. I was saying that it is intrinsically valueless. Not valueless in the real world.
Yes, we give gold value, because people value gold.
And that leads to, the dollar has value BECAUSE PEOPLE VALUE THE DOLLAR JUST AS PEOPLE VALUE GOLD.
I say the difference between dollars and gold is only one of degree.
Due to golds long history of value its gained universal acceptance as having value.
The same as the dollar.
And we need to keep the dollar universally accepted as having value within a certain range.
Which is why sound economic policy is necessary.
Not tax cut and spend and shift our economy overseas.
The real fear is that by going so far outside the accepted criteria for a stable economy that the dollar will lose its accepted value.
And then the U.S.(and the world) is screwed.

Gold is intrinsically valueless? I really think you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

in·trin·sic Audio pronunciation of "intrinsic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-trnzk, -sk)
adj.

1. Of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent.

Gold has many inherent properties that give it value in industry and jewellery. Hence, to many people it has intrinsic value.

You have failed to answer my question: what is a dollar?
 

z0mb13

Lifer
May 19, 2002
18,106
1
76
an interesting thought:

if the US dollar is essentially backed by oil, wouldn't it be an incentive to the US to keep oil prices high? yes inflation would be a problem, but having a high valued dollar is worth more than keeping inflation in check.

 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
To think, I tried explaining this to my teacher way back in high school econ/civics. Now if I had this as talking points and a start for research (I had nothing but the spin-filled text book and her notes)...well, I'd have been more of a pain in the ass, but might have enjoyed it more. Maybe I'll take some Econ classes when I go for my bachelor's degree, and argue with a prof or two over it...

Anyway...
*gets lawn chair*
*pre-heats popcorn popper, gets oil ready, and opens new jar of kernels*``
*waits for someone that trusts the bought-and-sold Federal Reserve to start making this thread fun*

`` I'm serious about this one, as soon as I get up from the computer.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: techs

Yes. I was saying that it is intrinsically valueless. Not valueless in the real world.
Yes, we give gold value, because people value gold.
And that leads to, the dollar has value BECAUSE PEOPLE VALUE THE DOLLAR JUST AS PEOPLE VALUE GOLD.
I say the difference between dollars and gold is only one of degree.
Due to golds long history of value its gained universal acceptance as having value.
The same as the dollar.
And we need to keep the dollar universally accepted as having value within a certain range.
Which is why sound economic policy is necessary.
Not tax cut and spend and shift our economy overseas.
The real fear is that by going so far outside the accepted criteria for a stable economy that the dollar will lose its accepted value.
And then the U.S.(and the world) is screwed.

Gold is intrinsically valueless? I really think you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

in·trin·sic Audio pronunciation of "intrinsic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-trnzk, -sk)
adj.

1. Of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent.

Gold has many inherent properties that give it value in industry and jewellery. Hence, to many people it has intrinsic value.

You have failed to answer my question: what is a dollar?
Gold as a convenient vehicle of exchange is fine; it is a durable product with broad enough demnd that you can be relatively sure it will be accepted as payment.

As an 'official' currency, it's every bit as retarded as paper money (though for a different reason).

The US dollar (and every other dollar) is valueless, which is to say there is nothing about those dollars other than convention that keeps them 'valuable'. If you woke up tomorrow and the entire world stopped placing value on paper money, it would cease to be money.

Making a physical 'good' into money completely destroys the ordinary market for that good; There are, after-all, industries that turn gold into products; the value and cost of those products becomes quite divorced from 'free market' levels when one of the inputs becomes a standard currency.

The other problem is inflation/deflation. A central bank system can target and maintain some control over inflation rates, while physical money is entirely dependent on production, destruction, and birth rates.

So you have a choice between a currency that destroys some markets and leaves the entire realm of finance and debt in the hands of random chance (which has bitten people hard in the past under a gold standard), or a house of cards with strong potential for mismanagement and corruption.

Interesting that Dissipate calls dollars 'made up' when the entirety of trade, commerce, property ownership, currency, debt, etc are simply 'made-up' conventions which are generally (but not universally) recognized and have very real (and usually beneficial) effects.
 

dababus

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2000
2,555
0
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: techs
The main failure of the piece is to account for the fact that gold is indeed VALUELESS. It is only our FAITH in gold that gives it value. Just like the worlds faith in the dollar.
He is much to harsh in calling the systems that have evolved frauds. In fact there is no system where we could have an actual physical item as the unit of currency. Nothing serves as valuable to all, in real terms, like a bushel of wheat, or an automobile. It would be impractical to use those items as a unit of currency. Oil is the closest thing we have and it is not tenable as currency for many reasons.
The dollar does have real value in that it will buy certain amounts of certain things. For example a bushel of wheat may cost 5 dollars in the US and 4.79 in another country. This gives us a relative value for the dollar that allows us to have an international monetary system.
If Paul is trying to get us back on a precious metal standard he is really barking up the wrong tree.

According to that logic everything is valueless. Value is something that is in the mind of the actor. If you believe something is valueless, speak for yourself.

Value is not an issue when it comes to gold. Many people see value in gold, and this value is internationally recognized in every country on the planet.

But value is not really the issue. The issue is really an epistemological one.

My question to you is brief:

What exactly is a dollar?

Keep in mind that there is no legal definition of a dollar. And if you don't believe me you can try to look it up in Black's Law Dictionary.

The difference between gold and dollars has nothing to do with value. It has everything to do with the fact that gold is something that has a real definition. It is an element on the periodic table. Anyone can identify gold (even perhaps by using scientific equipment) because it is something that is real. Hence, we have indisputable knowledge of what constitutes gold and what does not.

Dollars, however, truly are an imaginary construct. We cannot know anything about them. They completely fail the test of epistemologically valid objects.

So my question to you is: do you not find it bizarre that the entire basis of our financial lives is based on an epistemologically bankrupt construct?


The Coinage Act of 1792 set the value of the dollar at 371.25 grains of pure silver. In other words, a dollar does have a definition in terms of weight of silver.

Prior to 1968, most of the United States Notes did bear the inscription "Will pay the bearer on demand (certain number of) dollars."

You will not find these notes and any inscription of that sort on FRNs.

Additionally, I want to point out that dollars is not "backed" by anything but debt. The idea that dollar is backed by oil or in essence backed by oil is not valid. The dollar itself or the dollar that we call is nothing more than IOU nothing. It is used as world's reserve currency and is the prime method of payment for oil which is one of the biggest commodity as traded all over the globe. That fact does not make dollar backed by oil, but indeed a widely accepted form of currency for energy purchases.

I strongly recommend to fellow ATOT readers to consult Edwin Vieira, Jr.'s two volume study called "Pieces of Eight" if they really want to educate themselves over the monetary and banking issues of this country.






 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: techs

Yes. I was saying that it is intrinsically valueless. Not valueless in the real world.
Yes, we give gold value, because people value gold.
And that leads to, the dollar has value BECAUSE PEOPLE VALUE THE DOLLAR JUST AS PEOPLE VALUE GOLD.
I say the difference between dollars and gold is only one of degree.
Due to golds long history of value its gained universal acceptance as having value.
The same as the dollar.
And we need to keep the dollar universally accepted as having value within a certain range.
Which is why sound economic policy is necessary.
Not tax cut and spend and shift our economy overseas.
The real fear is that by going so far outside the accepted criteria for a stable economy that the dollar will lose its accepted value.
And then the U.S.(and the world) is screwed.

Gold is intrinsically valueless? I really think you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

in·trin·sic Audio pronunciation of "intrinsic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-trnzk, -sk)
adj.

1. Of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent.

Gold has many inherent properties that give it value in industry and jewellery. Hence, to many people it has intrinsic value.

You have failed to answer my question: what is a dollar?
You must go back to what you say are its inherent values, industry and jewelry. Both are not necessary for life. I personally have never worn gold, nor care to. So gold has no intrinsic value to me as jewelry. Its value in industry would be limited in that in many, many countries people live simply and gold has less of an effect on the manufacture of things they want. Iraon in the form of steel is probably more valuable on the whole(though less valuable per ounce). As to industry, back in 1700 gold had almost no value in industry. In the 1970's Americans wre forbidden to own gold. So it was of NO value as a currency. To have "intrinsic" value it would need to be have a value to everyone. So in fact, while some people are not interested in aquiring a lot of wealth, everyone needs things like food, shelter, etc which can universally be bought with dollars or what dollars can be exchanged for, just like gold (except the dollars value is as currency almost world wide, where gold is now seldom used a currency)
As to what is a dollar. Its a unit of currency that is equal to what can be purchased in America for 100 cents. Its a creation that has come to be accepted as a valuable object that has behind it the full faith and credit of the United States.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: dababus
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: techs
The main failure of the piece is to account for the fact that gold is indeed VALUELESS. It is only our FAITH in gold that gives it value. Just like the worlds faith in the dollar.
He is much to harsh in calling the systems that have evolved frauds. In fact there is no system where we could have an actual physical item as the unit of currency. Nothing serves as valuable to all, in real terms, like a bushel of wheat, or an automobile. It would be impractical to use those items as a unit of currency. Oil is the closest thing we have and it is not tenable as currency for many reasons.
The dollar does have real value in that it will buy certain amounts of certain things. For example a bushel of wheat may cost 5 dollars in the US and 4.79 in another country. This gives us a relative value for the dollar that allows us to have an international monetary system.
If Paul is trying to get us back on a precious metal standard he is really barking up the wrong tree.

According to that logic everything is valueless. Value is something that is in the mind of the actor. If you believe something is valueless, speak for yourself.

Value is not an issue when it comes to gold. Many people see value in gold, and this value is internationally recognized in every country on the planet.

But value is not really the issue. The issue is really an epistemological one.

My question to you is brief:

What exactly is a dollar?

Keep in mind that there is no legal definition of a dollar. And if you don't believe me you can try to look it up in Black's Law Dictionary.

The difference between gold and dollars has nothing to do with value. It has everything to do with the fact that gold is something that has a real definition. It is an element on the periodic table. Anyone can identify gold (even perhaps by using scientific equipment) because it is something that is real. Hence, we have indisputable knowledge of what constitutes gold and what does not.

Dollars, however, truly are an imaginary construct. We cannot know anything about them. They completely fail the test of epistemologically valid objects.

So my question to you is: do you not find it bizarre that the entire basis of our financial lives is based on an epistemologically bankrupt construct?


The Coinage Act of 1792 set the value of the dollar at 371.25 grains of pure silver. In other words, a dollar does have a definition in terms of weight of silver.

Prior to 1968, most of the United States Notes did bear the inscription "Will pay the bearer on demand (certain number of) dollars."

You will not find these notes and any inscription of that sort on FRNs.

Additionally, I want to point out that dollars is not "backed" by anything but debt. The idea that dollar is backed by oil or in essence backed by oil is not valid. The dollar itself or the dollar that we call is nothing more than IOU nothing. It is used as world's reserve currency and is the prime method of payment for oil which is one of the biggest commodity as traded all over the globe. That fact does not make dollar backed by oil, but indeed a widely accepted form of currency for energy purchases.

I strongly recommend to fellow ATOT readers to consult Edwin Vieira, Jr.'s two volume study called "Pieces of Eight" if they really want to educate themselves over the monetary and banking issues of this country.

The dollar is backed ever one who is willing to accept a dollar in exchange for product. Why should I care that I can't make the goverment trade some amount of gold for my dollars when I can go to other people and turn my dollars into gold if I so pleased.
 

nobody2you

Junior Member
Dec 8, 2005
15
0
0
Originally posted by: techs

I think the point is the government can print money and it is limitless while Gold is a limited resource. I think it takes billion of years for an ounce of gold to be made, same for oil? What i want to know is how come I'am not part of this racket. It like a limitless credit card that can be used to make the monthly payment, why dont i have such a credit card?? My life would be much more prospering...World is confusing.
 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,849
0
0
Originally posted by: OS
i found this through prudentbear.com

GREAT article

I think that people are still missing the point that the US Goverment is *not* printing any money what so ever. US Federal Reserve Notes, are of course printed by The Federal Reserve. A privately held banking system, that is part of the Central Banks.

Additionally,

quoted from wiki

The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System is an independent government agency. It is subject to laws like the Freedom of Information Act and the Privacy Act which cover Federal agencies and not private entities. However, its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government, it does not receive funding from Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms.

It is of course in the best interest of the Federal Reserve to ensure the dollar is sought by the US Goverment, and foreign entities for a medium of exchange.
 

dababus

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2000
2,555
0
0
Originally posted by: TGS
Originally posted by: OS
i found this through prudentbear.com

GREAT article

I think that people are still missing the point that the US Goverment is *not* printing any money what so ever. US Federal Reserve Notes, are of course printed by The Federal Reserve. A privately held banking system, that is part of the Central Banks.

Additionally,

quoted from wiki

The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System is an independent government agency. It is subject to laws like the Freedom of Information Act and the Privacy Act which cover Federal agencies and not private entities. However, its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government, it does not receive funding from Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms.

It is of course in the best interest of the Federal Reserve and Wall Street to ensure the dollar is sought by the US Goverment, and foreign entities for a medium of exchange.