Congressional Research Service Verdict On Illegals And Obamacare

[lupi]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
I'm rolling at the two man Barry and Patranus over posting the contents of their inbox show. What, with this kind of posting history, are we really supposed to pay close enough attention for the even a broken clock is right once in a while anomalies? The only reason people are cutting the fence nowadays is for the scrap metal. Not to come into the US.

I'm sure you expressed the same feelings when JP, phokus and crew went wild a year prior to the election until a couple months after. That's a :rolleyes; cause I already know the answer.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: Carmen813
The bill doesn't contain it because the federal government is already banned from providing health care services to illegal immigrants. Additionally, as you said, the bill bans giving affordability credits to illegal aliens.

Actually, quite the opposite.

A FEDERAL judge turned over Proposition 187 in California that would have cut off services to illegal immigrants. So if a state gets federal funding, and the state HAS TO provide medical care to illegals....well you do the math...

This is why it is a bad thing to give the federal government so much power over the states via the ability to tax and spend...something the founding fathers never imagined.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: Carmen813
The bill doesn't contain it because the federal government is already banned from providing health care services to illegal immigrants. Additionally, as you said, the bill bans giving affordability credits to illegal aliens.

Actually, quite the opposite.

A FEDERAL judge turned over Proposition 187 in California that would have cut off services to illegal immigrants. So if a state gets federal funding, and the state HAS TO provide medical care to illegals....well you do the math...

This is why it is a bad thing to give the federal government so much power over the states via the ability to tax and spend...something the founding fathers never imagined.

Upside down and inside out, as usual. Federal law prohibits federal benefits being granted to anyone in the country illegally. Prop 187 required documentation of citizenship for a whole host of benefits including public education, but excluded emergency medical care which cannot be denied regardless of residency status.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: Carmen813
The bill doesn't contain it because the federal government is already banned from providing health care services to illegal immigrants. Additionally, as you said, the bill bans giving affordability credits to illegal aliens.

Actually, quite the opposite.

A FEDERAL judge turned over Proposition 187 in California that would have cut off services to illegal immigrants. So if a state gets federal funding, and the state HAS TO provide medical care to illegals....well you do the math...

This is why it is a bad thing to give the federal government so much power over the states via the ability to tax and spend...something the founding fathers never imagined.

Upside down and inside out, as usual. Federal law prohibits federal benefits being granted to anyone in the country illegally. Prop 187 required documentation of citizenship for a whole host of benefits including public education, but excluded emergency medical care which cannot be denied regardless of residency status.

Yes. So if they can't ask for documentation how exactly do verify citizenship?

Again, it is not that the legislation grants all of these things to illegals but the fact that it doesn't restrict them.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: Carmen813
The bill doesn't contain it because the federal government is already banned from providing health care services to illegal immigrants. Additionally, as you said, the bill bans giving affordability credits to illegal aliens.

Actually, quite the opposite.

A FEDERAL judge turned over Proposition 187 in California that would have cut off services to illegal immigrants. So if a state gets federal funding, and the state HAS TO provide medical care to illegals....well you do the math...

This is why it is a bad thing to give the federal government so much power over the states via the ability to tax and spend...something the founding fathers never imagined.

Upside down and inside out, as usual. Federal law prohibits federal benefits being granted to anyone in the country illegally. Prop 187 required documentation of citizenship for a whole host of benefits including public education, but excluded emergency medical care which cannot be denied regardless of residency status.

Yes. So if they can't ask for documentation how exactly do verify citizenship?

Again, it is not that the legislation grants all of these things to illegals but the fact that it doesn't restrict them.

Who said private or federal agencies can't ask for documentation of citizenship or lawful residence?

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: jonks
-snip-
Who said private or federal agencies can't ask for documentation of citizenship or lawful residence?

Private angencies can't, or they risk getting sued.

People here often complain about employers hiring illegals, but heck if you check you're subject to lawsuits for discrimination. They're in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

As a tax practitioner I attend IRS seminars. When they unvieled their new SS# verification site they cautioned us about using it to identify illegals or our clients may be sued.

Fern

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: jonks
-snip-
Who said private or federal agencies can't ask for documentation of citizenship or lawful residence?

Private angencies can't, or they risk getting sued.

We're not talking about hypotheticals, we're talking about what the law says. It is not illegal to ask a prospective employee if s/he is a US citizen or if they can provide proof of citizenship after being hired. You snipped out Patranus saying private companies can't verify citizenship because they "can't ask for documentation." Yes, they can.

You can be sued for anything, that's not grounds for discrimination. The law is that you cannot discriminate against non-US Citizens, not that you can't discriminate against illegal aliens.

 

[Pens1566]

Anyone arguing that a private employer can't ask for proof of citizenship is clueless.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Topic Title: Congressional Research Service Verdict On Illegals And Obamacare
Topic Summary: No Restrictions On Participation By Non-Citizens

Like almost everything else you post, your premise is yet another mean spirited pile of shit. In case you hadn't noticed, we're already paying for medical services to illegal aliens because most hospitals don't shove them into dumpsters when they show up at emergency rooms.

That IS a problem, but the problem is only going to get worse. Emergency care costs far more than basic health care so one way to reduce the load on emergency rooms and the overall costs of health care is to provide real basic health care, including prevention and immunization, to all of our citizens and legal, tax paying residents.

Refusing to treat emergency cases has another costly down side because failing to treat communicable diseases promotes spreading those illnesses among citizens and legal residents. Viruses and bacteria don't bother to check the citizenship of their victims.

Unless you have a better solution, one thing you could do to reduce global warming and toxic waste would be to STFU. :|

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Topic Title: Congressional Research Service Verdict On Illegals And Obamacare
Topic Summary: No Restrictions On Participation By Non-Citizens

Like almost everything else you post, your premise is yet another mean spirited pile of shit. In case you hadn't noticed, we're already paying for medical services to illegal aliens because most hospitals don't shove them into dumpsters when they show up at emergency rooms.

That IS a problem, but the problem is only going to get worse. Emergency care costs far more than basic health care so one way to reduce the load on emergency rooms and the overall costs of health care is to provide real basic health care, including prevention and immunization, to all of our citizens and legal, tax paying residents.

Refusing to treat emergency cases has another costly down side because failing to treat communicable diseases promotes spreading those illnesses among citizens and legal residents. Viruses and bacteria don't bother to check the citizenship of their victims.

Unless you have a better solution, one thing you could do to reduce global warming and toxic waste would be to STFU. :|

Maybe if our government could just do their job for once and remove illegals, we wouldn't argue the point over covering them with medical benefits.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: jonks
-snip-
Who said private or federal agencies can't ask for documentation of citizenship or lawful residence?

Private angencies can't, or they risk getting sued.

We're not talking about hypotheticals, we're talking about what the law says. It is not illegal to ask a prospective employee if s/he is a US citizen or if they can provide proof of citizenship after being hired. You snipped out Patranus saying private companies can't verify citizenship because they "can't ask for documentation." Yes, they can.

You can be sued for anything, that's not grounds for discrimination. The law is that you cannot discriminate against non-US Citizens, not that you can't discriminate against illegal aliens.

No they can't, other than ONE item listed on Form I-9

Se below.

You go beyond that, you're asking for trouble.

Originally posted by: Pens1566
Anyone arguing that a private employer can't ask for proof of citizenship is clueless.

If they show you a SS card (or school ID etc), you're done asking unles you wanna subject yourself to a lawsuit. And there are plenty of advocacy groups that will be happy to fund the illegals suit against you.

See here

And even better, look at section, paragrapg 2

Employers are extremely limited in verifying citizenship.

Fern

 

[spidey07]

Fern,

Employers have to verify people for witholding purposes with two forms of ID including state issued picture and/or passport and/or SS. You know what a FORM W-9 is.

-edit-
or is it an I-9? I forget. Plus now employers can use the E-verify system to check employment eligibility.

How about we just use the same rules for health insurance and the same E-verify system? One or two lines in the bill = done and this is no longer an issue. That's the bill is so confusing on it with no clear answer should show it's motives, to provide health insurance for illegal aliens.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: brandonbull

Maybe if our government could just do their job for once and remove illegals, we wouldn't argue the point over covering them with medical benefits.

Maybe, but they are here, and they are human beings. Maybe people should start dealing with that reality and stop pissing and moaning about conditions that don't exist, now, and won't exist anytime soon.

Would the OP would prefer something like Hitler's solution for dealing with Jews, Gypsies and gays? :shocked:

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: jonks
-snip-
Who said private or federal agencies can't ask for documentation of citizenship or lawful residence?

Private angencies can't, or they risk getting sued.

We're not talking about hypotheticals, we're talking about what the law says. It is not illegal to ask a prospective employee if s/he is a US citizen or if they can provide proof of citizenship after being hired. You snipped out Patranus saying private companies can't verify citizenship because they "can't ask for documentation." Yes, they can.

You can be sued for anything, that's not grounds for discrimination. The law is that you cannot discriminate against non-US Citizens, not that you can't discriminate against illegal aliens.

No they can't, other than ONE item listed on Form I-9

Se below.

You go beyond that, you're asking for trouble.

Originally posted by: Pens1566
Anyone arguing that a private employer can't ask for proof of citizenship is clueless.

If they show you a SS card (or school ID etc), you're done asking unles you wanna subject yourself to a lawsuit. And there are plenty of advocacy groups that will be happy to fund the illegals suit against you.

See here

And even better, look at section, paragrapg 2

Employers are extremely limited in verifying citizenship.

Fern

No Fern, per I-9 employees have to produce one item from List A, OR, one item from List B AND one item from List C. A SS Card is on list C so the employee must also produce an item from List B. Further, if they are facially suspect or "don't reasonably appear to be genuine" (i.e. the picture doesn't resemble the employee) an employer may demand further evidence establishing identity.
http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/m-274.pdf

Now if an employer has a documented history of ONLY requesting this info of foreign looking people, they are being discriminatory and deserve to get sued.

If an employer has a white man and a black woman up for a job and hires the man, they "open themselves up for law suits" but that's the cost of doing business. To say that the employer "can't" hire the man because they are asking for trouble in that situation is weak.

 

[Underclocked]

I doubt anyone here is completely heartless. I would be willing to agree to any viable heatlth plan our elected representatives can agree to, so long as they themselves agree to have that coverage only. And let's end their cushy retirement schemes as well, make them pay into social security with the rest of us. Why NOT?

And let's talk about cost. Adding another trillion dollars to the already astounding debt load this country is carrying isn't something that should be ignored. Paying a little more in taxes isn't going to get us out of debt. Paying a LOT more in taxes isn't going to get us out of debt. Hyperinflation might... of course all you have worked for or might have been fortunate enough to save in your lifetimes will be quietly made worthless in that process. I see little to no concern shown for the elderly who always suffer the most when such occurs.

Soylent Green is people!!

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: jonks
-snip-
No Fern, per I-9 employees have to produce one item from List A, OR, one item from List B AND one item from List C.

Yeah, you're right.

Howver, it still limts what an employer can ask for.

And really, coming up with a (fake) SS card plus a clinic or doctor record or a DL or school ID or voters registration card isn't too difficult. Not around here (the East coast) anyway. And part of the point is, an employer cannot refuse to accept those and instead require something more substantial.

So, I was wrong when I said they can't ask, but they sure are limited and a suspicion (such as not speaking English) doesnt allow them to go further.

Fern

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: eskimospy
So wait, now we're supposed to be mad that illegal immigrants (who use health services at drastically lower levels than us citizens) will be paying full price for the premiums to participate in the federal public plan? Can anyone possibly point to a downside to this? They tend to be healthier than average, which means they are less likely to get their premium's worth in services per year, they don't get any federal subsidies so it's no money out of your pocket, and if they do get injured we're not all paying for them in the emergency room because they don't have insurance as the 'public option' will not have its year to year operations funded by the federal government. I can't think of a single downside.

Thanks for highlighting what an excellent idea this is Barry!

If they are illegal, then the Feds have no knowledge of them and therefore can not "bill them".

So, how are the full price premiums to be paid?

The illegals have been conditioned to go to the ER for service; what will change that pattern/attitude. The ER is not going to kick them out if it is serious; but who is going to pay for the costs. Being illegal, there is no way to verify or track them once they leave the center.

If the person isn't being billed or paying premiums, how is he a customer of the public insurance plan? If you are mad about illegal immigrants getting free health care that's fine, but this bill doesn't have anything to do with that. It will be the same way it has always been.

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: brandonbull

Maybe if our government could just do their job for once and remove illegals, we wouldn't argue the point over covering them with medical benefits.

Maybe, but they are here, and they are human beings. Maybe people should start dealing with that reality and stop pissing and moaning about conditions that don't exist, now, and won't exist anytime soon.

Would the OP would prefer something like Hitler's solution for dealing with Jews, Gypsies and gays? :shocked:

No one said they were not human beings. As human beings, we establish certain industrilized societies and there are a finite amount of resources to support said societies. Immigration has to be regulated to ensure that society can handle the extra humans and still maintain an acceptable standard of living. Plenty examples in human history where uncontrolled immigration has destroyed societies.

If their country sucks so much, why don't they take a stand and force change? Doesn't Mexico have the 2nd richest person?

So now you are trying to compare the sending of people home to the forceful removal of legal citizens and their subsequent torture/execution?

Having my arm stretch to the sun isn't much of a reach as compared to your post.