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Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
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Arafat got his money by siphoning off his piece of the money from international organizations and people who came to the aid of Palestinians. It wasn't drugs. By the way, if Hezbullah is selling Israeli drugs, don't you think it would be smart not to take it? I mean, they do want to kill you and all.

LOL! Read a book. PLO made over 10 billion on drug smuggling during the civil war.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=695969&contrassID=2

Virtually all of the armed factions in the civil war - Hezbollah, Amman, Fatah, pro-Syrian PLO, etc...all trafficked drugs and arms.

Terrorists don't work for free.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
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Why is Israel allowed to have it and Hezbullah isn't? Who's going to stop them from getting it? If the answer is Israel, then go ahead and stop them. As long as American soldiers don't die, I couldn't care less.

Think about it a little bit and get back to us.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
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Think about it a little bit and get back to us.

What is there to think about? These people have been fighting each other for thousands of years. You think a couple of scuds is a 'game changer'? Same could be said of the machine gun a 150 years ago. 500 years ago it was probably the musket. 1000 years ago it was a fancy sword, etc... They won't stop and I don't care. It'll probably make a good future documentary though.
 

Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
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I thought we moved to Arafat.

You said Hezbollah never smuggled weapons, I proved they did.

PLO made over 10 billion in drug smuggling when they occupied Lebanon.

THIS ISNT A SECRET.

Go research it yourself instead of flat-out denying facts.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
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You said Hezbollah never smuggled weapons, I proved they did.

PLO made over 10 billion in drug smuggling when they occupied Lebanon.

THIS ISNT A SECRET.

Go research it yourself instead of flat-out denying facts.

LOL. I never said Hezbullah never smuggled weapons. I did not even know we were arguing about weapons smuggling (as per the OP, it doesn't bother me one bit). You must be confused. We were arguing whether Arafat delved into drugs. I asked you to prove it since you made the claim. Why should I do your dirty work and prove it?
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
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Force all the people out and tac nuke the whole area till it glows in the dark. It's like two kids fighting over a toy...at some point you have to take the toy away.
 

DanDaManJC

Senior member
Oct 31, 2004
776
0
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Unlikely. It seems this is a common fallacy among far-left trolls, but the reality is most Christians support Israel because it has more respect for Christians than any other state in the Middle East or Muslim world.

Just ask the Christian Dinkas fleeing the peace-loving Arab Islamists in Sudan and Egypt.

I don't think Stephen Harper is a fundamentalist.

The idea is barely a "far left trolling point". I know plenty of fundies and non-fundies alike who support Israel because they're God's chosen people... and that Israel becoming a nation again signals the second coming of christ.

While not directly related, remember this poll:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience...rterofrepublicansthinkobamamaybetheantichrist
~25% of repubs think obama could be the antichrist. If that many people think obama's the antichrist it certainly doesn't take any stretch of the imagination to realize that just as many, if not more, would also have some kind of religious support for Israel.

IIRC there's some bible passage in the OT about the Messiah and Israel becoming a nation again that fundies draw this idea from...
 

Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
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The idea is barely a "far left trolling point". I know plenty of fundies and non-fundies alike who support Israel because they're God's chosen people... and that Israel becoming a nation again signals the second coming of christ.

While not directly related, remember this poll:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience...rterofrepublicansthinkobamamaybetheantichrist
~25% of repubs think obama could be the antichrist. If that many people think obama's the antichrist it certainly doesn't take any stretch of the imagination to realize that just as many, if not more, would also have some kind of religious support for Israel.

IIRC there's some bible passage in the OT about the Messiah and Israel becoming a nation again that fundies draw this idea from...

Strawman.

I never said there isn't a religious-motivation for supporting Israel, but it is not nearly as offensive as those who support the Arab apartheid dictatorships in the name of social-justice.

I don't trust those sorts of polls anyways.

One can be a Christian and support Israel and not be a fanatic. Demonizing those who even remotely associate themselves with the most progressive and modern state in the ME is a witch-hunt tactics designed by the Islamic states.

Attacking anyone who dares question their anti-Jewish/Israel agenda. Their hatred of Christians is worse than anyone's.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
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When (not if) Hezbollah launches missles; Israel will retaliate with no holds barred against Hezbollah areas in Lebanon and possibly along with Syria for supplying the missles. What the damage will be to the Lebanon infrastructure will depend on how Hezbollah handles their shoot and scoot. The UN will be rolled up and out of the way.

Iran will be a different story - Israel has other plans for that problem as needed.
 

DanDaManJC

Senior member
Oct 31, 2004
776
0
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Strawman.

I never said there isn't a religious-motivation for supporting Israel, but it is not nearly as offensive as those who support the Arab apartheid dictatorships in the name of social-justice.

I don't trust those sorts of polls anyways.

I'd say it's a mutual strawman.

I never said you said there's no religious motivation to Israeli support. You implied it. I was just trying to back my own statement up with more than just fluffy words. Anyways, what I was replying to was...
Unlikely. It seems this is a common fallacy among far-left trolls, but the reality is most Christians support Israel because it has more respect for Christians than any other state in the Middle East or Muslim world.

So basically you said Christian support for Israel had more to do with non-fundamentalist causes. That the religious/fanatic motivation for Israeli support is drummed up by far-left trolls.

I, on the other hand, disagreed based on personal experience and a semi-correlation with that poll. I do happen to think there's a large, religiously fanatical base for Israeli support that has less to do with "far left trolls" and more to do with "looney religious christians".

I don't trust those sorts of polls anyways.

For the sake of discussion, why not? The wording of the question is "He may be the antichrist" is pretty clear. And I'd assume that the polling company took the effort to make sure its population sample was statistically relevant for the rest of the population.
 

Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
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I'd say it's a mutual strawman.

I never said you said there's no religious motivation to Israeli support. You implied it. I was just trying to back my own statement up with more than just fluffy words. Anyways, what I was replying to was...

I didn't imply anything - I said most Christians support Israel because it has more respect for Christianity (among other religions) than its neighbors or enemies.

More than 75% of America's population self-identities as Christian. I'm assuming plenty of those are democrats, no?


So basically you said Christian support for Israel had more to do with non-fundamentalist causes. That the religious/fanatic motivation for Israeli support is drummed up by far-left trolls.

Yes. Far-lefts have a tough time defending Israel's enemies, or explaining their support for say, the Palestinians, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc - without mentioning Israel.

Demonizing and vilifying Israel as well as its supportors (those fundi Christinians11!!!) is just another Arabist tactic at discrediting an opponent.
I, on the other hand, disagreed based on personal experience and a semi-correlation with that poll. I do happen to think there's a large, religiously fanatical base for Israeli support that has less to do with "far left trolls" and more to do with "looney religious christians".

That's nice. Have you met all 300 million Americans? Have you discussed and debated Israel/Palestine with the 220 million American Christians?

I'm sure there is a large religiously-fanatical base for Israeli support. I don't dispute that. But the left seems to use that base, which is a vocal minority ultimately, as a strawman to debate Israel.

After all, matching up bible-thumpin God-worshipers against academic intellectual progressives is an easy win, no?



For the sake of discussion, why not? The wording of the question is "He may be the antichrist" is pretty clear. And I'd assume that the polling company took the effort to make sure its population sample was statistically relevant for the rest of the population.

I have a feeling that poll already had a pre-determined agenda based on the rather unusual questions.

I remember reading polls where it said something like 50% of libs saw Bush 2 as Hitler reincarnate.

It's all bullshit.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
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Yes. Far-lefts have a tough time defending Israel's enemies, or explaining their support for say, the Palestinians, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc - without mentioning Israel.

Demonizing and vilifying Israel as well as its supportors (those fundi Christinians11!!!) is just another Arabist tactic at discrediting an opponent.


That's nice. Have you met all 300 million Americans? Have you discussed and debated Israel/Palestine with the 220 million American Christians?

I'm sure there is a large religiously-fanatical base for Israeli support. I don't dispute that. But the left seems to use that base, which is a vocal minority ultimately, as a strawman to debate Israel.

After all, matching up bible-thumpin God-worshipers against academic intellectual progressives is an easy win, no?





I have a feeling that poll already had a pre-determined agenda based on the rather unusual questions.

I remember reading polls where it said something like 50% of libs saw Bush 2 as Hitler reincarnate.

It's all bullshit.
No it isn't. A large segment of the Right are Fundie Christians and their "main" support for Israel is based on the fact that the Bible says they are God's Chosen people.

BTW I'm no Arabist, I think most of the Arab nations are assbackward shitholes run by lunatics. It's unfortunate that the Jews and the UN decided that creating a homeland for them in the middle of these lunatics was a wise idea. My main problem with the Israelis is that some of their actions such as settling occupied territories just exacerbates the situation.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
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BTW I'm no Arabist, I think most of the Arab nations are assbackward shitholes run by lunatics. It's unfortunate that the Jews and the UN decided that creating a homeland for them in the middle of these lunatics was a wise idea. My main problem with the Israelis is that some of their actions such as settling occupied territories just exacerbates the situation.

I'm with you on this. If I was a Jew in Germany back in 1945 and had to immigrate somewhere, I doubt I'd pick the ME over US.

Having the occasional chat with elderly Jews, I understood that post Holocaust, where they were betrayed by their own nations, they trusted no country to protect them. This is what led many of them - middle-upper class, educated, white collar workers or traders - to come and settle in the middle of fucking nowhere, with hundreds of thousands of hostiles around, instead of just immigrating to US or Britain like others did.
Very little of them were really religious in any way, and I doubt many supported the Zionist movement before the WWII.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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There is something to be said with SamurAchzur post WW2 point of, "I'm with you on this. If I was a Jew in Germany back in 1945 and had to immigrate somewhere, I doubt I'd pick the ME over US.

Having the occasional chat with elderly Jews, I understood that post Holocaust, where they were betrayed by their own nations, they trusted no country to protect them. This is what led many of them - middle-upper class, educated, white collar workers or traders - to come and settle in the middle of fucking nowhere, with hundreds of thousands of hostiles around, instead of just immigrating to US or Britain like others did.
Very little of them were really religious in any way, and I doubt many supported the Zionist movement before the WWII. "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But some of the flaws in the logic are that few of those post WW2 homeless Jewish refugees could pick and choose where to immigrate to. Both the US and England set up
quota systems, and could cherry pick and choose only the best and brightest few to take in before the quota was exceeded. With the rest of the world by in large behaving the same.

An other myth to point out is that the land of Israel formerly called the British Palestinian mandate was hardly the middle of no where, and had been the spiritual homeland for Jews throughout their long post second diaspora history. And about a century before Hitler, a mainly Russian Jews back to Israel movement had already started and was already creating tensions and violence between native Palestinians and Arabs, and Russian Jewish immigrants. But to characterize that already well established back to Israel movement as having a history of only violence and newly inflamed ethnic hatreds would also be wrong. Because many parts of the former British mandate had experienced a cultural rebirth benefiting all as Jews, Arabs, and Palestinians found tolerance and co-operation worked better.

Another point to make is the Judaism is a remarkably resilient religion that has maintained its cultural identity for basically thousands of years. Almost without exception, the religion of a conquered people can't be maintained for even a few centuries before being totally forgotten by its original adherents. I do not make that statement lightly or claim its a totally good or a totally bad thing, I just point out it has its up sides and problematical down sides. But post WW2, it made Israel the logical place
to put all those homeless Jewish refugees. And IMHO, I still support the UN decision to create the State of Israel.

The problems came thereafter, bad behavior initially on the Arab side, caused bad Behavior on the Israeli side, and now we have an apartheid Jewish State as a small Island surrounded by people who hate Israel. And we can also say that the UN solved the Jewish refugee problem only to create another Palestinian refugee problem of equal size.

It did not have to end up like this, the UN creation of Israel could have turned out to be a win win win for everyone if Israel, the Arabs, and Palestinians had learned to co-operate. But now that lofty co-operation goal is further off than ever, and much of the blame must transfer to Israel for being unwilling to share anything and to take as much as possible. And long after the surrounding Arab States are wiling to recognize Israel's right to exist, Israel keeps building its military hegemony, keeps taking more land it does not own, and keeps building up the hatreds of it neighbors. As the initial virtue of having a strong and unassailable military has now turned into an Israeli net liability to both Israel and any hope for a just peace in the mid-east.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
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What Arab states have recognized Israel's right to exist?

Egypt and Jordan only
Syria - no and they are still in a declared state of war.
Lebanon - questionable and they are controlled by Syria/Hezbollah that wants Israel gone.

That takes care of the direct neighbors.

Now we have the big player living in the next block:

Iraq was still in hostilities until Saddam was kicked out
Iran - need we say more
Pakistan - ditto
Saudi - their actions speak louder than their words
Libya - is learning to make nice talk - carrot/vs stick situation

and you still use the words "just peace" which is Arabic for take from Israel everything that the Palestinians want.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
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What Arab states have recognized Israel's right to exist?

Egypt and Jordan only
Syria - no and they are still in a declared state of war.
Lebanon - questionable and they are controlled by Syria/Hezbollah that wants Israel gone.

That takes care of the direct neighbors.

Now we have the big player living in the next block:

Iraq was still in hostilities until Saddam was kicked out
Iran - need we say more
Pakistan - ditto
Saudi - their actions speak louder than their words
Libya - is learning to make nice talk - carrot/vs stick situation

and you still use the words "just peace" which is Arabic for take from Israel everything that the Palestinians want.

Even Egypt only took the route of peace in exchange for American money and weapons, and for getting back Sinai, failing an offensive few years earlier. I'd hardly call the relations of Egypt and Israel "peace", compared to that Russia and US are like US and Canada.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Even Egypt only took the route of peace in exchange for American money and weapons, and for getting back Sinai, failing an offensive few years earlier. I'd hardly call the relations of Egypt and Israel "peace", compared to that Russia and US are like US and Canada.

I agree that Egypt may have a nervous peace but they are not officially openly hostile and seem willing to co-exist (even if bribed).

But my intention was to demonstrate that the Arabs nations are still mainly aligned against Israel and points out a fallacy in LL statement to the contrary.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Some of the Common Courtesy statement fallacy may lie in, "Iran - need we say more"

Much ado has ben made of the Achmadinejhad statement of wiping Israel off the map, but in reality, what is being referred to is to erase from the map, the illegal gains Israel made in the 1967&73 wars. The original goals of the Oslo accords and given that, its very probable that Iran would recognize the Israeli right to exist within its original 1948 borders. Nor does that motor mouth Achmadinehjad speak for Iran, and if Cheney had not kicked Iranian moderates in the teeth thereby discrediting them in 2002, the moderates in Iran might have won the election that put Achmadinejhad in power in the first place.

The other thing more to be said about Iran is that they, never expelled their Jews their Jews like the other surrounding Arab nations did, after Israel expelled their Palestinians.
And while Iranian Jews are still free to immigrate to Israel, that net inflow outflow is zero, as many Iranian Jews who choose to immigrate to Israel, later opt to return to Iran.

But the real problem is freely acknowledged by Common Courtesy and Samur, when the Israeli policy is to repress and retard the aspirations of surrounding nations, on the principle that nothing that is good for them, is good for Israel. Where does that Israeli right to bomb Iraq and Syria come from? Or that openly stated goal of bombing Iran because it might be developing a peace time nuclear program that could later lead to nuclear weapons if Israel maintains its hostility.

And maybe the world could understand the rape of Lebanon, if Israel had used it to selectively eliminate the threat in just South Lebanon, because the range of Hezbollah missiles was just 60 miles. But when Israel bombed everyone, including Lebanese Christians,many of whom were over 200 miles away, it transformed Hezbollah Lebanese popularity from 25&#37; to 75%.

But now the nutty Netanyuhu government is embarked on a course to keep ramping up Arab hatreds and not give up any of the illegal gains of the 1967&73 wars.

And I have to ask who will win in the end, certainly terrorists are the big short terms winners, but its hard to believe Israel can win in the long term when Arab nations outnumber Israeli 275 to 5 and have the oil money to buy arms.

And when the Obama administration begins to doubt the value of previous Israeli blank check support, we can also ask another question if Israel can outlast Obama. Will future US policy makers follow the Obama lead or will they flip back to US blank check support of Israel that has not lead anywhere in terms of a mid-east peace since 1967? As for the rest of US allies and the bulk of the rest of the world, The USA is now the most ardent Israeli supporter, and without the USA, Israel would be under far far more international pressure to come to the negotiating table and start making some real concessions. And concession that address the right to return issues Israel hopes to escape but never will.
 

Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
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No it isn't. A large segment of the Right are Fundie Christians and their "main" support for Israel is based on the fact that the Bible says they are God's Chosen people.

Wow, persuasive. again, I'm not disputing a large segment of the right are "fundie Christians" but they are nothing compared to the fundi leftists who apologize for Iran, Syria, homicidal Palestinians.

Fundi Christians aren't blowing up their children or calling for the destruction of the Muslim world.

BTW I'm no Arabist, I think most of the Arab nations are assbackward shitholes run by lunatics. It's unfortunate that the Jews and the UN decided that creating a homeland for them in the middle of these lunatics was a wise idea. My main problem with the Israelis is that some of their actions such as settling occupied territories just exacerbates the situation.
The settlement issue is an entirely different discussion. The reality is the Palestinians wouldn't even negotiate until Israel started re-building cities/villages that were destroyed or run over by the Arab forces in 1948.

From my experience talking with Israeli Jews, most reject the concept of "occupation" because it normally refers to conquest and occupation of a sovereign country which is not the case here. The "West Bank" was never sovereign.


Article 49 of the G.C was written after the Nazis forcibly transported millions of people (Jews, Poles, etc..) for the purpose of exterminating them, slave labor, etc. Article 49 revolved around preventing another sovereign Nazi-like state from eliminating their territory of Jews and making it "judenrein."


HILARIOUSLY, the Palestinians and Arabist cite Article 49 to enforce the racist exclusion that Article 49 was designed to prevent.

The Palestinians demand a right for any Palestinian Arab to live in a Jewish state, but want to exclude Jews from the right to live in a new Palestine state. They want a Palestine that is "judenrein."

The UN and their corrupt international courts have dubiously legitimized these Nazi Arabist claims.


http://www.davidknoll.com.au/files/JCOM/The Review - Courting Trouble.htm

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=79269562

Ahhh, not surprising - the godfather of the Palestinian "question" al-Husayni was best friends with Hitler.

hitler_mufti.jpg
 

OBLAMA2009

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2008
6,574
3
0
Lets see if I can quite get my arms around this, a Hezbollah that has not really fired a single missile at Israel since 2005 has now augmented its stockpiles.

Why is it that I trust a Hezbollah that has minor WMD and does not use it against its neighbors more than an Israeli bat shit crazy government that has much much better WMD and uses it on its neighbors while engaging in international war crimes?

yes the world should be more concerned about the countries that actually spend billions developing and using wmd's and go around starting wars, killing and maiming innocent people in the process--countries like the u.s.
 

DanDaManJC

Senior member
Oct 31, 2004
776
0
76
I didn't imply anything - I said most Christians support Israel because it has more respect for Christianity (among other religions) than its neighbors or enemies.

I was referring to your misinterpretation of what I said.


Yes. Far-lefts have a tough time defending Israel's enemies, or explaining their support for say, the Palestinians, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc - without mentioning Israel.

Demonizing and vilifying Israel as well as its supportors (those fundi Christinians11!!!) is just another Arabist tactic at discrediting an opponent.
Ok. I get it.

That's nice. Have you met all 300 million Americans? Have you discussed and debated Israel/Palestine with the 220 million American Christians?

Of course not. That's why I went through the trouble of referring to that poll in the first place. What I was saying was that I thought I could make a substantive argument, drawing a correlation between those who actually believe in the end times and fanatic-religious support for Israel. Will I do that for you? I'll be frank, no, it's too much trouble. So say I did make that argument, then basically 25% of fundies would support israel for fundi-reasons. Though still a minority, that's pretty damn significant.

I'm sure there is a large religiously-fanatical base for Israeli support. I don't dispute that. But the left seems to use that base, which is a vocal minority ultimately, as a strawman to debate Israel.

After all, matching up bible-thumpin God-worshipers against academic intellectual progressives is an easy win, no?

Well no doubt the fundies provide plenty of cannon fodder -- I definitely won't argue there. But obviously we disagree on the how big this minority is.


I have a feeling that poll already had a pre-determined agenda based on the rather unusual questions.

I remember reading polls where it said something like 50% of libs saw Bush 2 as Hitler reincarnate.

It's all bullshit.
yeah could be. the only real way to go fwd from here would be with moar pols!
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
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Ahhh, not surprising - the godfather of the Palestinian "question" al-Husayni was best friends with Hitler.

hitler_mufti.jpg



OMG, TERRORISTS, AND NAZI COLLABORATORS??!?!?!?! You must be creaming your pants at the opportunity to be outraged about this, IHV!
 
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