Confused about ICC profiles, color spaces, and printing

pennylane

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2002
6,077
1
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Hopefully this isn't too complicated, but I'm not sure how to use and apply ICC profiles for printing. I also don't quite understand the difference between an ICC profile and a color space. Are they two completely different things? Does changing the ICC profile change the color space?

I mainly use Photoshop CS4 and Bridge. I don't have Lightroom. My workflow is often RAW -> psd -> jpeg/tiff (ie, Bridge for RAW adjustments, photoshop for extra stuff). Often it's just RAW -> jpeg/tiff (ie, Photoshop is just used to convert to jpeg/tiff).

In RAW, the color space I use is ProPhotoRGB. I typically maintain that through PSD, and then convert to sRGB with the jpeg if I'm just uploading the pictures online.

But, I don't know what to do about printing. I don't have a printer, but ICC profiles for Costco and other stores that do prints are available online. If I were to have my pictures printed (via uploading them). should I try to use these ICC profiles, or should I just send the pictures in sRGB?

Finally, I'm not quite sure where to go to embed Costco's printer's ICC profile automatically. Is there a way to do that from Bridge or Photoshop during the jpeg conversion? From Bridge, I normally just go to Tools -> Image Processor, to convert to jpeg.

Thanks.
 

PurdueRy

Lifer
Nov 12, 2004
13,837
4
0
Originally posted by: pennylane
Hopefully this isn't too complicated, but I'm not sure how to use and apply ICC profiles for printing. I also don't quite understand the difference between an ICC profile and a color space. Are they two completely different things? Does changing the ICC profile change the color space?

I mainly use Photoshop CS4 and Bridge. I don't have Lightroom. My workflow is often RAW -> psd -> jpeg/tiff (ie, Bridge for RAW adjustments, photoshop for extra stuff). Often it's just RAW -> jpeg/tiff (ie, Photoshop is just used to convert to jpeg/tiff).

In RAW, the color space I use is ProPhotoRGB. I typically maintain that through PSD, and then convert to sRGB with the jpeg if I'm just uploading the pictures online.

But, I don't know what to do about printing. I don't have a printer, but ICC profiles for Costco and other stores that do prints are available online. If I were to have my pictures printed (via uploading them). should I try to use these ICC profiles, or should I just send the pictures in sRGB?

Finally, I'm not quite sure where to go to embed Costco's printer's ICC profile automatically. Is there a way to do that from Bridge or Photoshop during the jpeg conversion? From Bridge, I normally just go to Tools -> Image Processor, to convert to jpeg.

Thanks.

Monitor icc profiles tell your computer what gamut your monitor covers. It can then adapt between that gamut and the one stored in the image.

I wouldn't start in prophotoRGB unless you intend that to be your output. When adjusting the image in CS4 RAW you want to see the histogram according to the color space you are in. Otherwise you could be clipping colors you could otherwise save.

The .icc profiles from printers should only be used for proofing your image in photoshop. They will give you an "idea" what the image may look like when its printed. I say "idea" because I find that it's not all that accurate typically. Perhaps that's because my monitor is adjusted beyond the print standard of 80 nits. If you were to send these images with their profile attached it would be discarded by them and assumed to be sRGB. This would lead to color shift and all sorts of craziness. Don't do it. Send them the images in sRGB unless they specifically say they can handle adobeRGB or prophoto. As of this point I know of no online commercial printers that accept anything over sRGB.

If you want to proof your image you'll have to use photoshop or similar to do that. I can't look at the options currently but in a drop down menu on the right side you will see a reference to "proofing". In this you can tell it your printer profile and it will adjust the colors accordingly.

You should have your monitor profile loaded into windows color calibration in the control panel(optional install in XP) and have it selected as the default for your monitor. Then color aware programs(firefox 3, windows image "preview", photoshop, etc.) will use this profile automatically to adjust the colors of the image based on the embedded profile.

EDIT: I should also mention that if you are printing from photoshop you should let photoshop do the color management from your image color space to your printer. To do this you will have to disable all color mangement in your printer drivers and tell photoshop in the print dialog to color manage and which profile to use. Note that you are not saving the image in the printers .icc profile.
 

Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
15,381
6
91
Nice explanation PurdueRy. I never quite understood icc profiles either. This makes things much more clear. Ideally you'd have a custom monitor icc profile created by a calibration tool right? Then have windows color management set to that eh?
 

PurdueRy

Lifer
Nov 12, 2004
13,837
4
0
Originally posted by: Gooberlx2
Nice explanation PurdueRy. I never quite understood icc profiles either. This makes things much more clear. Ideally you'd have a custom monitor icc profile created by a calibration tool right? Then have windows color management set to that eh?

Yeah, ideally you'd measure your monitor with a calibration device. I've used a Spyder 2 and Custom Calibrated i1 display2 before. The Spyder 2 is incapable of measuring wide gamut monitors with accuracy so I got the much more expensive x-rite device.

Typical calibration software does two things. It creates an .icc profile which describes the color gamut of the monitor and it alters either the LCD's internal Look up table(only in high end monitors) or it alters the graphics card look up table to the gamma you select. They are entirely separate.

When you load the profile into windows, all it does is let other programs know where it is. No version of Windows is color managed. In fact, the only default windows app I know of that is is the "Preview" image viewer that at least exists in vista and windows 7. Photoshop then, for instance, will know what your display profile is and alter the colors automatically. No settings need to be changed in photoshop.

Typically the .icc files most manufacturers provide with their monitors are decently accurate. They'll allow you to tame the wide gamut displays accuracy on sRGB material. So many people don't even bother to install these files along with their display driver. It's a real shame because, depending on the monitor, it can make a huge difference. It's one of the reasons I avoid IE at all costs. Firefox can be color managed.
 

pennylane

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2002
6,077
1
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Hmm, I'm even more confused, but for now I want to focus on monitor calibration.

I used the X-Rite monitor calibration also. It seems like the .icc profile loads fine since I see the colors of my desktop visibly change when Windows loads. However, I have never installed this optional windows color calibration in XP. Do I still need to do that?

 

PurdueRy

Lifer
Nov 12, 2004
13,837
4
0
Originally posted by: pennylane
Hmm, I'm even more confused, but for now I want to focus on monitor calibration.

I used the X-Rite monitor calibration also. It seems like the .icc profile loads fine since I see the colors of my desktop visibly change when Windows loads. However, I have never installed this optional windows color calibration in XP. Do I still need to do that?

The color changing on your desktop is due to the gamma change I mentioned. It has nothing to do with the .icc profile as Windows does not implement any color management on itself.

As mentioned, the .icc profile is a separate file that describes the gamut of your monitor. Your X-rite software(I don't use their software) should have created an .icc file for you somewhere. You need to take this and install the windows color management applet. Load it as the default for your monitor. Then go to the advanced tab and change the "windows color system defaults" "device profile" to your monitor profile. Then change "viewing conditions profile" to "WCS profile for ICC viewing conditions".

This will allow .icc aware applications to be able to use your .icc profile. If you use firefox 3.5(I highly recommend it) then type "about:config" into the url bar. In the search bar at the top type "gfx". This will bring up the color management settings. Point it to your display profile. Mine is the following, for example:

D:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color\P221W 92100555NA.icc

Change color management mode to a value of "1". Rendering intent should be "0".

Note: you may have to restart both firefox and windows after this for both programs to start using the monitor profile.

You should then be able to open any image in internet explorer and compare the same image in Firefox. If your monitor profile significantly differs from sRGB you should notice color differences between the two programs.

EDIT: I also want to say that if anything I say is unclear or you don't understand the reason for it let me know and I'll try to expand. ICC profiles are not a huge topic on the internet even though, in my opinion, they should be.
 

pennylane

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2002
6,077
1
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I installed the color profile manager. I think without the color management applet, the X-Rite software automatically "forces" the latest color profile (*.icc file) it makes onto Windows because the color change on my desktop I was referring was more than just a gamma change. When I loaded the color profile made after calibration through the Windows color management applet, the colors didn't change from when I didn't have the color management applet.

However, I think the color management applet lets me load color profiles for different monitors independently, which I couldn't do before. I'll have to re-calibrate my secondary monitor (cheap TN panel) again, but hopefully I can get the two monitors to be very close.

Thanks PurdueRy.

You should then be able to open any image in internet explorer and compare the same image in Firefox. If your monitor profile significantly differs from sRGB you should notice color differences between the two programs.

I'm not sure I quite understand this. Should I load an sRGB picture into firefox and IE and compare? Firefox would be able to see the icc profile I have loaded and adjust for it (I've adjusted the about:config setting), while IE can't?
 

PurdueRy

Lifer
Nov 12, 2004
13,837
4
0
Originally posted by: pennylane
I installed the color profile manager. I think without the color management applet, the X-Rite software automatically "forces" the latest color profile (*.icc file) it makes onto Windows because the color change on my desktop I was referring was more than just a gamma change. When I loaded the color profile made after calibration through the Windows color management applet, the colors didn't change from when I didn't have the color management applet.

However, I think the color management applet lets me load color profiles for different monitors independently, which I couldn't do before. I'll have to re-calibrate my secondary monitor (cheap TN panel) again, but hopefully I can get the two monitors to be very close.

Thanks PurdueRy.

You should then be able to open any image in internet explorer and compare the same image in Firefox. If your monitor profile significantly differs from sRGB you should notice color differences between the two programs.

I'm not sure I quite understand this. Should I load an sRGB picture into firefox and IE and compare? Firefox would be able to see the icc profile I have loaded and adjust for it (I've adjusted the about:config setting), while IE can't?

Regarding your first topic, no X-rite does not "force" the color profile in because windows is itself not color managed. There is no way to force color management of desktop backgrounds, icons, etc. The color change you are seeing, I guarantee, is a gamma change to your graphics card LUT. This CAN change the color because there are three gamma curves, red, green, and blue. Just like in photoshop, I can lower the gamma curve of green and get a purplish color cast. This is the color change you are seeing. You saw no difference after loading the color management applet because, even with the applet, Windows is not color managed. It simply helps choose the profile and mode of color management other applications should use. You should see a change in the image preview option in Windows though(right click on image and click 'preview'). When windows has a color profile available it will apply it here. You should be able to see a difference between an image loaded here and one loaded in Paint, for instance. The difference will depend on how far your display deviates from sRGB.

As for your second question, you can load any image and compare. It doesn't have to be tagged with sRGB to work as windows will assume sRGB where no tag is present. The difference may be more obvious with an image saved in adobe RGB format though.

Your understanding is correct, Firefox will know the profile and take that into account while IE will assume your monitor is sRGB. Make sure you set the color management mode to 1 instead of 2(default for firefox 3.5) or 0(default for 3.0 and earlier). This will make ALL images color managed.