Confused about 7970 World of Warcraft performance

[tweakboy]

I play BF3 @ 1080p 8xAA 16xAF high detail vsync on, game settings to Ultra but few features off like blur which I hate,,

I get 60fps capped no matter what action is happening on the train or out of it....

 

[tweakboy]

No need for a new video card until games drop below 60fps avg, gl

 

[animekenji]

I'm aware of AMD's past implementations of tessellation going all the way back to Truform, but the only one that matters is the one implemented in DirectX11 and AMD has only had support for that since the 5870.



I can and do play many different games in DirectX11 on my 4870x2. I never claimed it is able to use all of the DirectX11 features. It runs in DirectX11 using the DirectX10.1 feature level, just as the 9800GT can run in DirectX11 using the DirectX10.0 feature level. Again, this is possible because DirectX11 is a strict super-set of DirectX 10.1 (which itself is a strict super-set of DirectX10) and so compatibility is as simple as shedding the small subset of features that are not supported. Feel free to read more about it if you are still confused:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff476872%28v=vs.85).aspx

If it's not using all DX11 features, then it is not DX11. What don't you understand about that? The chart you linked to proves my point perfectly. If your video card doesn't support DX11, then the game is downgrading to whatever DX version your card supports, so a DX11 card will run in DX11, a DX 10.1 card will run in DX 10.1 and a DX10 card will run in DX10. DX10 and 10.1 cards will NOT run in DX11. This isn't even a feature of DX11, games have have been auto-detecting hardware in software and running at an appropriate detail level for years, no..decades.

 

[GotNoRice]

What are your current results? I personally don't know how to interpret their results either since my card scores higher than all the cards then benched in situations I assumed are much more intense (minus that ice wall in ICC.)

Hard to say really since it varies so much depending on what I am doing. In most open areas (most of the time on the wind rider) I get 150+ FPS. In raids it seems to depend more on the level of spell activity more than the number of people present. On trash and most boss fights I can maintain 60 FPS pretty easily but some of the fights in Dragon Soul, like Ultraxion for example, have everyone stacked up right on top of each other. It's also mostly a tank and spank fight so everyone is giving it everything they have, casting spells as fast as they can, and at the same time the healers are all casting their AoE heals on top of each other. It's a pretty intense fight so i'm usually paying more attention to the fight than the FPS counter but I know I'm dipping below 60 for sure during the more intense moments of the fight.

I also run 12x AA (4x edge-detect) and that brings down the FPS a bit but at 1080P on a 27" I prefer higher levels of AA. In fact, I wouldn't mind cranking up the AA even more if I got more GPU power.

 

[GotNoRice]

If it's not using all DX11 features, then it is not DX11. What don't you understand about that? The chart you linked to proves my point perfectly. If your video card doesn't support DX11, then the game is downgrading to whatever DX version your card supports, so a DX11 card will run in DX11, a DX 10.1 card will run in DX 10.1 and a DX10 card will run in DX10. DX10 and 10.1 cards will NOT run in DX11. This isn't even a feature of DX11, games have have been auto-detecting hardware in software and running at an appropriate detail level for years, no..decades.

What you said would only be true if all of the improvements in DirectX11 were directly connected to having DirectX11 hardware when in fact they are not. There are numerous architectural and efficiency improvements in the DirectX11 API itself that apply regardless of which downlevel hardware path is being used. Being able to run on downlevel hardware is indeed a feature of DirectX11. Note that I never said it was introduced in DirectX11

Everything I have said has been 100% spot on accurate. I never once claimed my hardware could ever do anything beyond it's abilities. There is more to DirectX11 than the hardware itself. Your arguments have nothing to do with the topic of this thread and are borderline trolling, and you seem to be disagreeing more with your own misinterpretation of my posts than anything.

No need for a new video card until games drop below 60fps avg, gl

I'd like to upgrade my existing cards before summer if for no other reason than the heat they put out. I'm not dissatisfied with their performance, but i'm not planning to throw my old cards out when I upgrade either. My 2nd rig is currenly running 2x 4850 and i'd like to retire those and move my 2x 4870x2 over to that box.

 

[animekenji]

What you said would only be true if all of the improvements in DirectX11 were directly connected to having DirectX11 hardware when in fact they are not. There are numerous architectural and efficiency improvements in the DirectX11 API itself that apply regardless of which downlevel hardware path is being used. Being able to run on downlevel hardware is indeed a feature of DirectX11. Note that I never said it was introduced in DirectX11

Everything I have said has been 100% spot on accurate. I never once claimed my hardware could ever do anything beyond it's abilities. There is more to DirectX11 than the hardware itself. Your arguments have nothing to do with the topic of this thread and are borderline trolling, and you seem to be disagreeing more with your own misinterpretation of my posts than anything.



I'd like to upgrade my existing cards before summer if for no other reason than the heat they put out. I'm not dissatisfied with their performance, but i'm not planning to throw my old cards out when I upgrade either. My 2nd rig is currenly running 2x 4850 and i'd like to retire those and move my 2x 4870x2 over to that box.

No, it is your misinterpretation of the chart that you linked. You said you were playing in DX11 on DX10 and 10.1 hardware. I pointed out your error. You are not getting anything close to a full DX11 experience on any hardware that is not capable of it. If your video card is only capable of using shader model 3.0, that is all you get. You will not be seeing your games running with any shader model that came later, so just admit that your DX10 card is only playing your games in DX10 and your DX10.1 card is only playing in DX10.1, already.

 

[GotNoRice]

No, it is your misinterpretation of the chart that you linked.

What the chart shows is that the game is still operating within the DirectX11 API regardless of which downlevel hardware path is used.

You said you were playing in DX11 on DX10 and 10.1 hardware. I pointed out your error.

I said that I was playing in DirectX11 using the DirectX10.1 feature level. I never claimed anything more than that.

You are not getting anything close to a full DX11 experience on any hardware that is not capable of it.

I said that I was playing in DirectX11 using the DirectX10.1 feature level. I never claimed anything more than that. But let's be realistic here, the most noticeable feature that is present in the DirectX11 feature level but not the DirectX10.1 feature level is tessellation.

Tessellation:

No Tessellation:

I'd say I'm pretty content with what I'm missing out on, although consider that this thread is about me wanting to upgrade to a newer card...

If your video card is only capable of using shader model 3.0, that is all you get. You will not be seeing your games running with any shader model that came later, so just admit that your DX10 card is only playing your games in DX10 and your DX10.1 card is only playing in DX10.1, already.

My cards are running at the appropriate feature level within the framework of the DirectX11 API. It seems like you are arguing technicalities at this point.

I feel it's important for me to restate why I brought the whole compatibility issue up in the first place. World of Warcraft only has 2 DirectX modes to choose from in-game. DirectX 9 and DirectX 11. There is no option for DirectX10. Users of DirectX10 and 10.1 hardware are able to select the DirectX11 option and the game runs normally. Any DX11 feature I might be missing is not relevant since almost all of the game code itself is still DirectX9. It has been shown that using DirectX11 in WoW gives about a 30% improvement over using DirectX9. This improvement applies even to users of DirectX10 and 10.1 hardware that have selected DirectX11 in-game.

 

[3DVagabond]

If it's not using all DX11 features, then it is not DX11. What don't you understand about that? The chart you linked to proves my point perfectly. If your video card doesn't support DX11, then the game is downgrading to whatever DX version your card supports, so a DX11 card will run in DX11, a DX 10.1 card will run in DX 10.1 and a DX10 card will run in DX10. DX10 and 10.1 cards will NOT run in DX11. This isn't even a feature of DX11, games have have been auto-detecting hardware in software and running at an appropriate detail level for years, no..decades.

It's hard sometimes to understand. His card does not support Dx11, but Dx11 supports his card and Dx10. Him saying he's running these games in Dx11 is a bit misleading. It's just that Dx11 doesn't require a separate code path to run on Dx10 hardware.

 

[animekenji]

It's hard sometimes to understand. His card does not support Dx11, but Dx11 supports his card and Dx10. Him saying he's running these games in Dx11 is a bit misleading. It's just that Dx11 doesn't require a separate code path to run on Dx10 hardware.

And that's precisely the point I tried to make but apparently failed to do, though I don't understand how. It's a simple enough concept to understand. Hardware is only capable of running the standards that it supports. It is not capable of doing anything else. DX11 downgrading the gameplay experience to accommodate older hardware is not the same thing as running the game on a DX11 card. The hardware is still only capable of supporting the standards that it was made to support. DX11 cannot magically transform a DX9 card into a DX11 one, which is the impression that was given by the original post.

 

[GotNoRice]

And that's precisely the point I tried to make but apparently failed to do, though I don't understand how. It's a simple enough concept to understand. Hardware is only capable of running the standards that it supports. It is not capable of doing anything else. DX11 downgrading the gameplay experience to accommodate older hardware is not the same thing as running the game on a DX11 card. The hardware is still only capable of supporting the standards that it was made to support. DX11 cannot magically transform a DX9 card into a DX11 one, which is the impression that was given by the original post.

Nowhere in this thread did anyone ever make the claims you are arguing against.

 

[RussianSensation]

I personally think a lot of the hd7970 reviews showed that there are obvious driver issues with DX9 games that will most likely be fixed in future updates. The drivers for these cards are still very new, and this is a completely different architecture than what AMD has been using. I expect to see some pretty impressive performance increases from driver updates for GCN hardware.

AMD's inferior performance in Blizzard games has been documented for years. AMD was never able to beat Blizzard with HD3800, 4800, 5800 or 6900 series vs. their competitors. Not only that, but 2x GTX570s in SLI would cream an HD7970 in 2 games the OP asked about - WOW and BF3 (which OP asked about). And that performance is available right now. Even if drivers improve performance in WOW and BF3, AMD's lead in those 2 games is far too small to overcome the GPU power of adding a 2nd GTX570.

Russian, please buy some 580s to end the misery

I am sorry but that's uncalled for.

I love how suddenly I am biased because I pretty much disagreed with the entire forum on the fact that HD7970 isn't that great. Wow. Amazing. Now I am an NV fanboy.....Notice the card in my sig? Ya, I love it; and it's made by AMD. Just because I am not satisfied with a card that's $550 and is only 40% faster than mine and is only 25% faster than GTX580 14 months later, doesn't make me an NV fanboy. If GTX680 was only 40% faster than GTX580, I would have also been unimpressed. If you've followed my threads since 2003, I have severely criticized NV's 5800 and 5900 series, and recommended ATI's 9700, 9800, X800, X1800, X1900, HD5xxx and HD6xxx series on many occassions.

I just present information and let the reader decide. If you have information that shows that a single HD7970 will outperform 2x GTX570s in SLI in WOW and BF3, please share it in this thread. If the OP wants to spend $1100, of course HD7970s are faster.

I can and do play many different games in DirectX11 on my 4870x2. I never claimed it is able to use all of the DirectX11 features. It runs in DirectX11 using the DirectX10.1 feature level,

I know what you meant to say in your post and you clarified it above. A card that cannot run DX11 code automatically defaults to the next level that the game engine uses. If the game supports DX10 or DX10.1, then your card will run the game in DX10/10.1 mode. If the game only supports DX9 or DX11 (like WOW or Dirt 2 and 3), then your HD4870 series will automatically default to DX9 code path, not a DX11 codepath. But you already know that.

What you are missing is that DX11 code in WOW allows for DX11 videocards to perform certain operations quicker than they can do in DX9 mode. This is why in WOW, there is a very large performance increase from running a DX11 videocard in DX11 instead of a DX9 mode. For example, you could run an HD7970 in DX9 but it would be faster in DX11 mode.

In your case, your card cannot take advantage of this increased speed level since it cannot execute DX11 code (only subset of DX11, which doesn't share those speed increases). Which is why you should upgrade to a DX11 capable videocard and run WOW in native DX11 mode.

 

[GotNoRice]

I know what you meant to say in your post and you clarified it above. A card that cannot run DX11 code automatically defaults to the next level that the game engine uses. If the game supports DX10 or DX10.1, then your card will run the game in DX10/10.1 mode. If the game only supports DX9 or DX11 (like WOW or Dirt 2 and 3), then your HD4870 series will automatically default to DX9 code path, not a DX11 codepath. But you already know that.

DirectX10.1 hardware will use the 10.1 feature level when DirectX11 is selected in-game, it does not default to DirectX 9.

What you are missing is that DX11 code in WOW allows for DX11 videocards to perform certain operations quicker than they can do in DX9 mode. This is why in WOW, there is a very large performance increase from running a DX11 videocard in DX11 instead of a DX9 mode. For example, you could run an HD7970 in DX9 but it would be faster in DX11 mode.

As said above, DirectX10 and DirectX10.1 hardware is not forced to default to DirectX9 in WoW, it is able to use the DirectX11 path, via the use of the DX10 and DX10.1 downlevel hardware paths. It is able to benefit from the performance improvements over DirectX9.

In your case, your card cannot take advantage of this increased speed level since it cannot execute DX11 code (only subset of DX11, which doesn't share those speed increases). Which is why you should upgrade to a DX11 capable videocard and run WOW in native DX11 mode.

DirectX10 and 10.1 hardware does indeed show a performance improvement when selecting DirectX11 in-game vs DirectX9.

Here are a few blizzard support employees talking about it a bit:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2369677494#5

Running a DX10 card in DX11 mode will still improve the efficiency of the rendering engine, yes. The game will fall back to using Shader Model 4, which is still an improvement over 3.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1934615619

If you enable DirectX 11 support the game will uses the optimized memory allocation present in 10/10.1 which should in most cases offer a performance improvement.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2657486150#3

In addition, you can go ahead and enable DirectX 11. This will allow the game to utilize DX10's Shader Model 4, which may increase your framerates even further.

More:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3196390984
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1827307093#3

 

[TidusZ]

I'm sure someone has mentioned this, but WoW is all about processor speed. The fastest 2 cores you can throw at it the better its going to run. Video card really doesn't matter.

 

[GotNoRice]

I'm sure someone has mentioned this, but WoW is all about processor speed. The fastest 2 cores you can throw at it the better its going to run. Video card really doesn't matter.

I agree 100%, but my 2500K @ 5GHz should hold me over until Ivy Bridge is released.

 

[Puppies04]

I'm sure someone has mentioned this, but WoW is all about processor speed. The fastest 2 cores you can throw at it the better its going to run. Video card really doesn't matter.

CPU speed doesn't mean jack if you have high ping or ping spikes on your internet connection. I think people overlook this a lot with WOW. Throw all the hardware you want at the problem but if your internet isn't absolutly rapid the game is going to look jerky and I suppose it would be very easy to start blaming your GPU at that point. This jerkyness is going to be limited to other players and random movement npc's though not environments so times when you have lots of players stacked together on the screen at once are going to accentuate the issue.

 

[upsdriver]

CPU speed doesn't mean jack if you have high ping or ping spikes on your internet connection. I think people overlook this a lot with WOW. Throw all the hardware you want at the problem but if your internet isn't absolutly rapid the game is going to look jerky and I suppose it would be very easy to start blaming your GPU at that point. This jerkyness is going to be limited to other players and random movement npc's though not environments so times when you have lots of players stacked together on the screen at once are going to accentuate the issue.

Having a high ping has nothing to do with FPS, which is the point of this thread. Yes, if you have a bad connection, you may see other players "teleport" around on your screen, though your screen will still be rendered at the same FPS.

 

[peonyu]

I would buy a new card for the simple fact you have a 2500k@5ghz. Massive bottleneck right there and its your video card. I doubt WoW will improve much with a new card unless you really crank up the rez and AA - it is a cpu bound game in most areas of gameplay. But for other games it will be night and day. I would look into one of the new 7xxx radeon cards, they are faster than Gtx 580s afterall.