Conflicts with audio processor drivers in Windows98se

[imported_Kiwi]

I've been wanting to play Decent: Freespace for the last several years, but haven't taken time to assemble a period-matched Windows98 system until now.

I have an Asus P5A mainboard, running an AMD K6-2 processor at 400 MHz, with 384 MBs of PC-100 RAM, a 40 GB Hdd jumpered to only show up at 32 GBs, and a GF2 GTS video card with 32 MBs of RAM on it. I have already tried a Turtle Beach Santa Crus, two different Creative Live! cards, a Creative Sound Blaster PCI 128, and some Creative something "24 Bit", and none of those (all PCI) have ever made a single peep of sound.

I also have Win2000 installed, because I prefer using if across my LAN. In every case but one, I was able to get the cards installed in Windows 2000, and they did work, in it. In about half of the cases, Windows98 and the driver install software would have ACTED as if the drivers were really being installed, and sometimes showed up as being loaded, but nothing ever came out of the speakers.

In several cases, the Creative drivers denied the existence of any creative hardware. I attribute that to Creative's own callousness about getting rid of old drivers for certain of their older model cards. With most of the creative cards, I had more than one driver sersion to try, and tried everything I could find. That included an aftermarket unofficial driver from eastern Europe.

Digging deeper in the junk drawers and boxes, I found ISA cards and matching CDs that sort of worked. The results varied from "very fuzzy sounding" to "terribly scratchy, like a worn out old 78 rpm record". The best of those was an old AWE64 card.

Is there some built-in conflict in Win9X that the period drivers took account of, and the later ones now ignore? (I am sure I ran at least one of the SB Live! cards in a system with w98 still in use, and I am CERTAIN that I did so with the SB PCI 128 card, and I thought I still had the correct Live! CD on hand as well.)

 

[Nothinman]

Didn't they release the source code for that awhile back?

 

[imported_Kiwi]

Didn't *WHICH* "they" release WHAT source code, and to whom? If you mean Descent: Freespace, I doubt whether it has a bearing one way or the other on Windows98 apparently rejecting sound cards that back in its day were able to work, at least to some extent.

I've owned the appropriate Freespace CDs for years, and haven't misplaced them; AFAIK, no rewritten OS code has been appended to the original Win95/Win98/WinNT OS options (if I'd ever owned NT4, I might have tried that instead, but I have never done so, however, I did keep my copies of Win 98se).

Following several more rounds of slugging at Windows98's objections, I finally overcame the resistance, getting the Santa Cruz sound card running the way it is supposed to!

Thank you anyway.

 

[Nothinman]

My point was that since the source was released it was updated to run on newer systems so you don't have to f' with the crap that is Win98...

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
My point was that since the source was released it was updated to run on newer systems so you don't have to f' with the crap that is Win98...

Yeah, they did. He could use a newer build of the engine (DX8, yay) along with FSPort.

 

[imported_Kiwi]

The PCs I used Win98se with during 1998-2004 or so were able to deal with the SB PCI 128 card back then, and a couple of others, such as an Aureal and a Diamond, both PCI. The back-dated machine I've assembled now is actually a better one than what I had before about 2001 or so. The results of the FS2 (not FS1) source code release have been makeovers of FS2 into a Battlestar Galactica game, and a forthcoming Starlancer game.

As per the edit to my prior comment, after a helluva struggle, Windows98 finally acknowledged the last card I'd tried, Turtle Beach's Santa Cruz.

I'll have to look up "FSport", though. I haven't come across whatever that is. (OK, this is an edit, 15 minutes later. Given the existence of FRED in the first place, and the source code for FS2, I'd already figured that at some point in time, modding was a popular activity, but through the two weeks of time that passed since I decided to assemble an old PC, and did a fair number of Google searches regarding the game, however, I never saw this Hard-Light site mentioned, and was assuming that the modding interest had faded away and the sites had been taken down.)

 

[imported_Kiwi]

For any bystanders who noticed this thread, I did have some prior hints that the ALi chipset that Asus used in their P5A may have had some special problems. I fought several rounds a few years ago with a system that had Biostar's motherboard using the same chipset, and had to give up then.

One of the features that the Biostar board didn't work well with was USB. The Asus board had seemed to handle one USB device, my Logitech Wingman Joystick, with aplomb, so I felt like it was a better part than Biostar's. The stand I have the oldies running on predated mouse-use, and a standard keyboard uses almost all of its keyboard space.

I tested both oldie PCs with an IRock slim model keyboard that is only 16" in length, leaving room for a Marble Mouse trackball. The PC with a Soyo MB that has Via's MVP3 chipset was happy to see two USB devices at the same time. The Asus based PC, however, crashed when presented with the keyboard, and lost all of its USB functionality in both Win98se, and Win2K.

Seems to me if both OSes do that, then it must be flaky hardware (Asus & ALi).

Thanks.

 

[SonicIce]

Well... The SB PCI 128 is a strange card sometimes. You need WDM drivers for it to work in newer games or something. And sometimes older drivers for older games or DOS games. I tried like 4 differant driver versions and no one is perfect they each have thier own little quirks. its ok if you get it set up right though. And it has a nice midi sound especially if you install the 8MB waveset.

Heres a pic of mine:
http://jord.nm.ru/creative2.jpg

 

[imported_Kiwi]

The prospect of using "period" hardware with the matching OS seemed reasonable when it rose, and I've never tried too hard to sell the older gear as it was set aside after upgrades, so I had almost enough for two PCs when I'd started. The Sound Blaster Live! cards wouldn't work for me in either one of the two. I put the SB PCI 128 (picked up from eBay for maybe $5, plus another $2.50 to $3 shipping cost) in the system with the Soyo MB, and had some problems at first, but the seller had a driver he attached to an eMail that is working fine.

But the Via chipsets from that time period seem, in retrospect, to be less difficult to deal with, and the Soyo has the MVP3 chipset (which is what I'd had in a PC I'd used back then). I can't recall immediately which specific Aladdin chipset that Asus used in the P5A, but it had loads of conflicts with the nVIDIA VGAs of its day, such as the ubiquitous TNT2 (and when I started with the oldies hardware, that is exactly what I had in the ALi Aladdin-based PC!)

I had the Turtle Beach sound card, but in my mind, it was "too new", and I hadn't looked for Win98 drivers, but someone on eBay advertised his as having such drivers available, so I located some to download (not having any idea where my own Turtle Beach CD had gotten off to). Getting it working at all was a hassle and a half!

But it's doing fine, now. I'm on the verge of breaking up the Asus oldie PC entirely, and declaring the Soyo a conclusive winner. In the years before Win98, when Windows was still 3.0 and 3.1, or WfWG 3.11, I'd had Soyo hardware that ran well. It's too bad they were bought out by PC Chips (or whatever low end outfit it was that absorbed them).

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: Kiwi
I've been wanting to play Decent: Freespace for the last several years, but haven't taken time to assemble a period-matched Windows98 system until now. I have an Asus P5A mainboard, running an AMD K6-2 processor at 400 MHz, with 384 MBs of PC-100 RAM, a 40 GB Hdd jumpered to only show up at 32 GBs, and a GF2 GTS video card with 32 MBs of RAM on it.

Wow, that's a little too "period", Aladdin V was a buggy chipset known to exhibit many of the same problems with SoundBlaster cards that were attributed to VIA chipsets. You don't need to go that old for complete support with 98SE/DOS games. It would be better to use something from circa 2000 ~ 2002; Socket 478, Socket A (Intel 845/865, VIA KT266/333 with VT8235 SB, SIS 741, et. al.).

 

[imported_Kiwi]

I thought about that, but I'd skipped from a P2/400 to an Athlon 1.3 in a Gigabyte ZXE (KT133A), and from there to an nVIDIA NF2 Asus A7N8X. Part of the charm was keeping the twin (the second started after familiar problems started up with the first one) pair from costing much of anything. Both my Intel 440 board, and the ZXE MB having failed to survive the years until now, what I had on hand was from upgrading friends'/relatives' PCs somewhat more recently.

I ran several 'net searches, and read the reviews, and the Asus P5A had almost all good reviews. I only found out about the TNT2s versus the ALi Aladdin after I had problems using my own TNT2 card, and I still have that GF2 GTS (still nVIDIA) in there today, and another GF2, an MX 400, in the second oldies build, with the Soyo SY5-EMA+. Because I think the GTS is better than the MX, if I do abandon the Aladdin build, I'll probably put that GTS in the second of the two Win98 machines.

For easy connectivity across my LAN, each oldie dual boots to Win2000, even if they don't run it very quickly with their K6-2s' relatively slow core speeds. None of the audio or video drivers have revealed conflicts while these systems are running that OS, although the first one, with the Asus board, has had difficulty remembering that it has drivers for its NIC, in both Win98se and in W2K, but I've also seen that symptom in newer boards, like a Gigabyte with AMD's 750 chipset.

Personally, I have more PCs than I can justify owning, because I enjoy getting them going, and so I always have something for a loaner while I have an even older and worse off PC at my place to work on it. I bought that PCI 128, and since I'd had good service from one AWE64 back in the target time frame (mine has very fuzzy, scratchy sound now), I bought another AWE64. It was only slightly better than my own had been! But those drivers installed without even a hiccough!

Lastly, one of the only 1998 to 2000 period flying games that I'd tried more recently hadn't been that clearly (to me) as old as it was. I installed the Lucas Arts SW: Starfighter game on a comparatively slow AMD system, if it was any faster than an XP 2100, I would've had second thoughts, but the tutorial segment was uncontrollable. The PC I used was apparently so much faster than needed, that the game engine was in hyperdrive at minimum throttle.