Confirmed: Rad9700 Pro for the price of a 9500 !

[tart666]

This report from digit-life.com is discovering some interesting stuff about the Saphire Rad9500 128MB.

Here's the jist:

• - The PCB board is the same as reference Rad9700
  - The number of memory chips is the same, meaning 256-bit wide memory path (confirmed by benchmarks)
  - The chip marking are the same as Rad9700 (seen if you remove the HSF)

They seem to surmise that if the chip is marked the same as a Rad9700, it must be the same chip. Otherwise ATI would have no way of telling them apart.

What all this means is that this card may be unlocked and become the full 9700 pro via software / bridge fiddling.

Wouldn't that be an overclocker's dream

PS: here's the babelfished story.

Edit: here's a story of people that actually did it: link

 

[tuan121]

when is the 9700 and 9500pro coming out?

 

[BowlingNut]

the prototype rad9500 pro boards were built on 9700 pcbs. if you take a look at anand's article on the revised 9500pro, you will see that the 9500pro has its own pcb now, and is traced for a 128bit data path.

the rad9700pro and the rad9700 are the boards that support a 256bit bus

lastly, i do believe that the rad9500pro core is a derivative of the r300, i dont think it uses the same core


nice thought, but it wont work

edit: looking at those pictures, that is not a final version. compare the board layouts of the 9700 and 9500pro pictured. they are exactly the same, the shipping 9500 pros have their own pcb

 

[tart666]

They are comparing Saphire 9500 128MB to a reference 9700 Pro, and they look the same, no?

Also, these guys are saying the chips ARE marked the same.

Btw, that saphire 9500 128MB board is on sale at newegg for $190 right now.

 

[BowlingNut]

sapphire might use the same pcb design for their cards, but in any case, the 9500 has 128bit data bus. the switch to hynix mem means it will probably overclock well, and witht he new drivers and final hardware it is extremely attractive for <200 dollars.
oh christmas tree, oh christmas tree........

 

[tart666]

the 9500 has 128bit data bus.

Yeah, but apparently the 128MB version of 9500 has a 256-bit bus.

 

[BowlingNut]

no, all 9500s (64/128mb and 9500/9500pro) are using a 128bit data path.
anand's article on the revised 9500pro

This board also has a fully functional 128MB of memory as it is properly wired for the 128-bit memory bus of the Radeon 9500 Pro GPU.

anand's article on the technology behind the 9500pro

The Radeon 9500 Pro uses the same R300 GPU but with a one noteworthy modification:

The Radeon 9500 Pro has two 64-bit DDR memory controllers instead of the four in the Radeon 9700 Pro. This cuts the 9500 Pro's memory bandwidth to half of the 9700 Pro at identical clock speeds, and puts it in line with the GeForce4's 128-bit DDR memory subsystem.

Then there's the Radeon 9500 (non-Pro) which also has the reduction in memory bandwidth, but along with that it also loses half of its rendering pipelines. This makes the regular Radeon 9500 a significantly worse performer as it still only has one texture unit per pipeline, giving it a disadvantage when compared to the GeForce4

i trust anandtech a helluva lot more than most other sites out there, especially ones that think the number of memory chips determine the width of the data path

if you'd like, check out sharkyextreme.com or any other REPUTABLE tech sites, they all say that the 9500 has a 128bit data path.

edit: if you look at the pics in the second article, you can see that the radeon 9500pro's gpu is marked R300, though as stated above, it is a modified R300 core - minus half of the memory controllers, and on the standard 9500gpu it loses half the memory controllers and half of its rendering pipelines, though it is also marked R300.

 

[tart666]

OK, granted Anand has a better reputation. But he is looking at the new 9500 Pro that has its own PCB layout.

WHat the guys at digit-life are saying, is that the Saphire 9500 is based on the 9700Pro PCB, 9700Pro chip, and 9700Pro memory. The only way this card is different is in software.

Btw, what do you guys think about 9700 TX from dell? It has 128MB of RAM, costs $180 less and the VPU runs at 270MHz. Could this be the 256-bit 9500 ? The price is certainly right for a 9500 128MB.

 

[BowlingNut]

Originally posted by: tart666
OK, granted Anand has a better reputation. But he is looking at the new 9500 Pro that has its own PCB layout. WHat the guys at digit-life are saying, is that the Saphire 9500 is based on the 9700Pro PCB, 9700Pro chip, and 9700Pro memory. The only way this card is different is in software. Btw, what do you guys think about 9700 TX from dell? It has 128MB of RAM, costs $180 less and the VPU runs at 270MHz. Could this be the 256-bit 9500 ? The price is certainly right for a 9500 128MB.

let me try one more time:
THERE IS NO 256BIT RADEON 9500

ATI manu's the chips. they send the chips and reference specifications to sapphire. the chips that sapphire receives are only capable of using 128bit data paths. there are two 64bit memory handlers on the chip, 2x64bit=128bit. sapphire does not fab their own 9500 chips. i will personally garuntee right now that the guys at digit-life are wrong. that's all there is to it.
lastly, all R300 chips are based on the same chip, but there are three chips that are marked identically, the 9500gpu, the 9500pro gpu, and the 9700/9700pro gpu. there is not a 256bit radeon 9500, regardless of memory size, number of chips used, placement on the pcb, manufacturer, speed of the memory chips, or manufacturer of the memoy chips.

i really hate to be an ass about this, but i'm trying to save you from being very dissappointed.

finally, if you dont believe me, look at newegg's listed specs on the sapphire 9500
or you can look at the specs listed by sapphire themselves: sapphire's 9500


the only other card than the 9700pro which is 256bit is a standard 9700, which i haven't found for sale yet. unlike the 9500pro, the 9700 has all four memory handlers (4x64bit=256bit), and the only way it differs from the 9700pro is a reduction in clock speed.


let me reiterate, sapphire technology would be unable to make a 256bit radeon 9500 pro is they wanted to. to make such a thing they would use a 9700 chip, then UNDERCLOCK it by almost half. that makes very little business sense, the profit margin on that product is extremely low when compared to building to ATI's specifications and then selling.

in conlusion here is the quick guide to ATI's new cards

9000 (rv250 - 64 or 128bit interface, not sure)- budget oem
9000pro (rv250 64/128) - budget gamer
9500 (r300(modified) - 128bit) - cheap-ass oem
9500pro (r300(modified) - 128bit) - modest gamer
9700 (r300(full) - 256bit) - gamer
9700pro (r300(full) - 256bit) - hardcore gamer

after this if you still dont believe me i cant help you. but if you buy a sapphire 128mb 9500, and come to find out that it really is 128bit like i've been trying to show you.... its your own money you wasted.

 

[tart666]

let me try one more time:
THERE IS NO 256BIT RADEON 9500

So what is this 9700TX with 128MB of 256-bit RAM that Dell sells for $180 less than regular 9700Pro?

Edit:Also, the 128MB 9500 has 8 hynix chips on it. 8x32 bit = 256bit RAM path. Just check out the fill-rate tests here. The 128MB 9500 clearly has an advantage, all due to 256-bit RAM path

Apparently, ATI needs to revise its specs. Otherwise Dell will continue to confuse us by calling 128MB 9500 a 9700 TX (Texas special edition?)

 

[broadwayblue]

yeah, i'm wondering if the 9700 tx (i just ordered from dell) is the same as the 9700. i can't really find any info on this card.

 

[tart666]

Hey, cool. Let us know what the hell it is, everyone is wondering!!

 

[tart666]

the chips that sapphire receives are only capable of using 128bit data paths.

Well , there's two possibilites.

One, the die size is actually different, fewer pipes on the chip, 128-bit ram

Two, everything is in software, locked a la Athlon MP.

The point is, it may be possible to unlock the 9500 boards (at least the ones based on 9700 Pro PCB), just like AXP can be unlocked and become an AMP.

 

[pillage2001]

9700TX is 180 less than 9700 Pro?? That's a hot price yo.

 

[pillage2001]

I can't seem to find the 9700tx in dell's site. Can anybody link it??

 

[tart666]

linked right here

Edit: you can get it on 4550 or 8250 systems. Just go through the configurator

 

[BowlingNut]

the 9700tx from dell is the standard 9700, its a clocked down version of the 9700pro - uses a full R300 core, not a modified r300 core like in the 9500

finally, let me explain how the 9500 gets its core:
the chip starts off as a wafer, and is processed to become a chip. the best chips become the 9700 pro chips, the next are the 9700 standard chips, those chips that wont yield high enough clocks to be a 9700 becomes 9500 chips by disabling two of the memory controllers. it is a completely irreversible process because once the chips are placed in the pcb, you would have to break the pcb to get the chip out to modify it and there is no way to access the editable sections of the chip without removing it. on a graphics card there are no ways to modify to bridging of the chip via any component on the pcb.

finally, there is no way an r300 core with only 2 64 bit memory handlers can handle a 256bit data path. the 32bit chips mean that the chip support 32bit registers and CAN function on a 32bit data path. 32bit chips can also operate on a 16bit data path, as in the 9500.

i'm sorry, but "unlocking" a 9500pro just wont work. i wish it could work, then i'd have a brand new video card in time for xmas, but it just wont.

 

[tart666]

Now all that would make sense if the 9500 chips and 9700 chips were marked different.

After all, that's what happens at sort, right? You burn some bridges with a laser, and mark the top of the chip.

But these 9500 chips ARE marked the same as 9700's. That's not how sorting process works, I tell you.

 

[pillage2001]

Originally posted by: tart666
linked right here

Edit: you can get it on 4550 or 8250 systems. Just go through the configurator

Oh crap. I thought we could buy it separately.

 

[Bovinicus]

The 9700 and 9500 PRO cores ARE different. There is no "unlocking" that can be done. You may unlock it, but it won't work because it will require a chip that uses a 256-bit data path.

 

[BowlingNut]

Originally posted by: tart666
Now all that would make sense if the 9500 chips and 9700 chips were marked different. After all, that's what happens at sort, right? You burn some bridges with a laser, and mark the top of the chip. But these 9500 chips ARE marked the same as 9700's. That's not how sorting process works, I tell you.

they are in fact marked the same, if you dont believe me go look at anand's article (linked above) and look at the pictures of the the 9500pro gpu. it has in big (well, relatively) letters: R300, same as a 9700 gpu - but it is definently NOT THE SAME

 

[BowlingNut]

Originally posted by: Bovinicus
The 9700 and 9500 PRO cores ARE different. There is no "unlocking" that can be done. You may unlock it, but it won't work because it will require a chip that uses a 256-bit data path.

thank you, i knew someone else would help me try to explain this

 

[Walleye]

So, by this, you all mean that you could moderately overclock the 9700 tx, and it would run as essentially a 9700 pro? Only reason i want to know is because i will be ordering a new PC from Dell within the month, and i want to know how good this graphics card is. From what i hear, it is the 2nd fastest card on the market. Is this true?

 

[Spicedaddy]

Originally posted by: Walleye
So, by this, you all mean that you could moderately overclock the 9700 tx, and it would run as essentially a 9700 pro? Only reason i want to know is because i will be ordering a new PC from Dell within the month, and i want to know how good this graphics card is. From what i hear, it is the 2nd fastest card on the market. Is this true?

Yes, it would the second fastest after the 9700 Pro.


You'd have to overclock the core from 275 to 325 MHz, and the memory from 540 to 620 MHz.

 

[pillage2001]

The only problem is, where to get it without buying a whole Dell?