Confidence in programming...

[SoundTheSurrender]

I am no way near a high level programmer or know a lot but this kind of strikes me weird...

So I took a ecommerce course where we build a ecommerce website.

I build a tshirt shirt that sells tshirts.

It was database driven, you could order a tshirt and do a transaction with a fake credit card input and everything.

A lot of the people in the course were impressed. A lot of them just programmed what the teacher did which was bare minimum. They created a site where you click to order something and that's it. No transaction or email confirmation of the order or anything. It did not emulate a real world ecommerce site at all.

Some of these people were interested in getting jobs as programmers or they were keeping it open.

I would like to get into a programming position but I don't feel no where near getting good and professional with it. Are these people just more confident then me? I guess I'm just too pessimistic.

 

[Saga]

The reality of the situation is we're currently in an era where simple programmers are a dime a dozen and people want specialists.

The unfortunate downside is you have to be able to specialize not only in the modern language, but whatever new language comes along the pipes as soon as possible to stay competitive.

But I guess that all depends on what you intend to do. The world is full of average, so stand out and you'll get somewhere.

 

[SunnyD]

As long as you know that you can solve any problem presented with the tools you have, or know how to acquire the skills you need to solve the problem, I don't see a problem. I know mostly C/C++, and it's not easy to find C/C++ positions outside the defense industry that don't also have a lot of seniority, additional skills, or some idiotic combination of other things in order to get the position. Last job I had before my current job, I programmed for the first time ever in Delphi and I'd like to say I did pretty damn good at it. The key is finding an employer that will let you explore your career and let you grow. If you're telling yourself "I can't do that" right off the bat, then yeah, I'd say it's a confidence issue.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
A lot of the people in the course were impressed. A lot of them just programmed what the teacher did which was bare minimum.
....
Are these people just more confident then me? I guess I'm just too pessimistic.

No, it sounds like those people are overconfident.

People who only do the bare minimum often do not have a successful career in software development. The people who tend to be able to do well are interested enough in the work to do more, learn more, and keep learning while they're working.

You sound like you belong to the second group :thumbsup:

 

[EagleKeeper]

Looking to build a better mousetrap (not just a gold plated one) will move you along.

However, brush up on your grammar. That can shoot you down before you get your foot in the door

 

[Woosta]

If you want to get good, immerse yourself fully - chances are if all you're doing is classwork you're at the tip of the iceberg. I usually hang around programming forums, I know tons of knowledgeable gurus on various IRC networks/channels and absorb knowledge daily, along with books/documentation reading, participating in code golfing, code review, etc.

 

[Markbnj]

Originally posted by: Izusaga
The reality of the situation is we're currently in an era where simple programmers are a dime a dozen and people want specialists.

The unfortunate downside is you have to be able to specialize not only in the modern language, but whatever new language comes along the pipes as soon as possible to stay competitive.

But I guess that all depends on what you intend to do. The world is full of average, so stand out and you'll get somewhere.

If the OP has reasonable expectations for a first job then there are usually some junior level positions that are a good shot. What it boils down to is whether you interview well and can get yourself in the door. Once you're there, if you're a programmer, you'll learn what you need to.

But I agree with Izusaga completely. Even to get that junior position you need to be able to do something well that is in current demand. The days when you could get a job just knowing a language are long gone. The easiest entry point is probably web development, in terms of the number of entry-level positions. You will have to consider the market and your interests and pick one to learn. Unless you really have a ton of time on your hands it will be almost impossible to be interview-ready on two or more. So it's either ASP.NET and VB/C# on the Windows side, or something like Java/PHP/Django/Jquery on the Linux side. Search your zip code on dice.com and see what people are hiring. You will also need at least one relational database, i.e. SQL Server or MySQL. Things like XML, AJAX, and web services will be big factors in your favor.

Not that I would discourage you from pursuing something other than web development if your interests lie there. There is work in Windows Forms and WPF applications, C++, Java Swing apps, etc. From my recent experience I would say there are fewer of these but they are out there. Again you will need a database, and also file and network I/O experience.

It's tough these days. The software world is moving at light speed and the number of technologies that are worthy of attention is mind-boggling. Of course any competent programmer can pick a tool and get up to speed on it, but unfortunately when you interview the managers are likely to throw all sorts of API-specific questions at you, for their technology-of-the-moment, and if you don't know the answers you're losing points fast. Competition is pretty fierce, especially in these times.

I wanted to mention how much I agree with DaveSimmons, and double-endorse what Common Courtesy said:

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but how someone speaks and writes has a huge and immediate impact on whether I have any interest in hiring them. I encourage anyone who wants to work in our profession to maintain every single written communication, whether it is a forum post, an email, or a white paper, at a college graduate level of grammar and syntax.

 

[EvilManagedCare]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender

I would like to get into a programming position but I don't feel no where near getting good and professional with it. Are these people just more confident then me? I guess I'm just too pessimistic.

We'll never know. It could be they didn't want to go the extra mile you did. Besides, simply being more confident, doesn't mean they're more competent. I can remember many times as an undergrad adopting an ALAP (As Little As Possible) attitude depending on the subject matter. That would later come to bite me in the ass. I don't do that anymore, or if I do, there is a distinct difference in the outcome (A work v C work). I would say keep working to set yourself apart. I need to make sure and take this advice too as my CS studies are about to start in 2 weeks, and I can't wait!

 

[KIAman]

It depends on what your team (if you even have one). If you're doing the requirements analysis, design, development and testing all yourself, yes the people are very overconfident for what they are proposing to get into.

If you are only the programmer, assuming you have a good analyst/designer, coding itself isn't too bad. If the analyst/designer is really good, all you are doing is practically typing for them.

Some designs I've seen are so good, the code is practically written for you.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

Thanks for the posts....

All my internships dealt with programming and web design.

My first internship was creating a global policy structure with a team. I then took that information and created a proof of concept site showing this structure. My supervisor told me to use Mediawiki and I created my own CSS and catered it to give it a unified corporate design.

He actually wanted me to code Mediawiki in a way that would have levels of access and a whole ticket system to submit new policies and policy changes. I have no experience in PHP and Mediawiki was programmed with as little security in mind.. I felt like a failure here.

My next internship was ASP.NET and C#. I programmed a Console application that reads a directory of excel files and extracts data from them in a CSV file. I also did CSS to create a style for the website. The last thing I did was setup a Roles Authentication for Admin, Users, and Executives. The internship didn't go to far because there was supposed to be a database modeling team to create the database but that never happened and it wasn't really established that they weren't doing it until a month left in the internship. I feel like I didn't accomplish anything. I again felt like I could have done more but didn't.

I'm just stuck at what to do. I have a Information Systems degree, not Computer Science so I don't have the heavy logic and math. All my related experience is with programming for the most part and now I'm realizing that it's giving off a programmers vibe to companies.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender

I would like to get into a programming position but I don't feel no where near getting good and professional with it. Are these people just more confident then me? I guess I'm just too pessimistic.

What was the class and what was the assignment trying to teach you?

Sounds like you wasted time if you got an A as did everyone else. In the real world, you need to meet the requirements and if the other people in your class met the requirements of the assignment, they did so more efficiently.

If you are bored, think of an application to write and start doing so. Just keep your grades up and get internships/co-ops. That's what the real world wants to see from a college student.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

The requirements was to make a ecommerce site that sold things modeled after what a real-world situation and I felt that I did do that and most of the class did not.

I graduated college already and I'm done. I've done 2 internships.

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
The requirements was to make a ecommerce site that sold things modeled after what a real-world situation and I felt that I did do that and most of the class did not.

I graduated college already and I'm done. I've done 2 internships.

Why not "real job" yet?

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

What?

That's where I'm stuck at. I don't know if I should try to get a professional job in programming or if I should do a administrative/help desk position. I just don't feel like I'm capable of programming in a real world situation.

 

[aceO07]

In courses beyond college (or even during) or outside of it, not everybody is going to go that extra mile. Sometimes that extra mile requires more time than they have or care to give.

Just go and get a programming position. You won't know until you try. Pick up PHP or C# or any language you want and practice with it. The experience you gain now will help you in your job later.

 

[KIAman]

I say shoot for the best you can get. If you got the capacity to learn and research, you can do anything you want. It's the "getting in" that's the hard part, not actually doing the job.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
What?

That's where I'm stuck at. I don't know if I should try to get a professional job in programming or if I should do a administrative/help desk position. I just don't feel like I'm capable of programming in a real world situation.

Let me tell you, I've seen people get hired that couldn't do what you did. People that came from one programming job, to our company, and then on to another (once we found out that they were so inept that we handed them a working project to make updates to and they mangled up the whole thing). People with Master's degrees who couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag, if the documentation was handed to them and provided samples. I keep on hearing about how these people managed to get yet another job somewhere else and it boggles my mind.

 

[scorp00]

You will be fine, go get a full time programming job you would be great at it. I always did the minimum in school and I've been very successful in the working world once I finally got that first job and some experience. Work is way easier than school was. Set up a webpage with your checkout app and some other code and put it on your resume, you should have no problem getting a job in web dev.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Izusaga
The reality of the situation is we're currently in an era where simple programmers are a dime a dozen and people want specialists.

The unfortunate downside is you have to be able to specialize not only in the modern language, but whatever new language comes along the pipes as soon as possible to stay competitive.

But I guess that all depends on what you intend to do. The world is full of average, so stand out and you'll get somewhere.

Specialization is where the money/job security is at. When you can master programming in a language or utilizing a technology that very few people have even begun to figure out, you are in high demand. It's very difficult to fire/poorly pay someone that they can't replace without a year of ramp up time.

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
I don't know if I should try to get a professional job in programming...

I have such a job, and I'm still in school for another semester. I recommend it highly. How are you going to gain experience without gaining experience? A help desk job won't build your resume. Get out there!

 

[imported_Dhaval00]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
However, brush up on your grammar. That can shoot you down before you get your foot in the door

If he can talk C# and XML, who cares! </sarcasm>
^Edited^

I seriously think you've the making of a great programmer. Just get out there and do it. You should be a skeptic, but not when it comes to learning. Sure, your code might be n00bish, but the internships you've had far outweigh the cons. Overall, I am sure, you can surpass all of us here [only if you would try]. Don't get an IT desk job and waste your talent .

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

Yeah. I really want to but I have some fears.

Since it's programming and my programming knowledge is bare minimum. If they're gonna throw all these technical words at me and I can't answer them then I won't get far. I didn't get a degree in Computer Science. I got more of a business orientated degree and dove into programming more than other students. I know I can learn it but I guess but it's almost like they want me to have a foundation.

I couldn't pass a Assembly course which ruined my ego with programming. I also dropped a advanced level C++ course. The class was over my head to be honest. It'd had been a semester and a summers worth of not using C++ and I got dropped in the course. It was affecting my performance in other classes so I dropped it as well.

This is why I'm skeptical if I can handle programming. They're gonna probably ask why I dropped these courses if they want to see my transcripts.

 

[imported_Dhaval00]

I was hardly good at C++ and still am a n00b when it comes to lower-level languages. But that is why you've teams. What others can't provide, you do, and vice versa. Assembly language is hardly important unless you're programming processors or pursuing a career in VLSI design. The whole reason why you have C#and Java is because [amongst many other things] they are easier to understand and decipher. I have a senior developer on my team who mastered in Forestry!

I ensured to sell myself as a newbie C#/ASP.NET developer, not as a C++ guru, or even as a SQL guru for that matter. Sooner I evolved into a SSIS developer and was bragging about the in's and out's of SQL Server. I am sure I am not the only one... everyone started at the bottom of the food chain, and most here have stories of their own. I have been in the 'real world' for around two years now, but have pretty much mastered .NET and related technologies (at least I think I have). But I will never stop/quit learning.

Most pragmatic interviewers will read your resume and then ask questions about the things they see on your resume. So if you don't put Assembly on your resume, don't expect to be asked anything about the MOV statement. That is another thing I learned - the interview process. Initially you might do a shitty job, but sooner or later you'll realize the norms and may be able to excel by your tenth interview. As with all things, it's an invaluable learning experience. Sell your exuberance and ebullience, not your skepticism. You should show your zest for learning and be ready to tread unknown waters.

And yea, you won't land a job for sure if you keep exhibiting the same amount of skepticism that you have in this thread.

 

[Kyteland]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
Yeah. I really want to but I have some fears.

Since it's programming and my programming knowledge is bare minimum. If they're gonna throw all these technical words at me and I can't answer them then I won't get far. I didn't get a degree in Computer Science. I got more of a business orientated degree and dove into programming more than other students. I know I can learn it but I guess but it's almost like they want me to have a foundation.

I couldn't pass a Assembly course which ruined my ego with programming. I also dropped a advanced level C++ course. The class was over my head to be honest. It'd had been a semester and a summers worth of not using C++ and I got dropped in the course. It was affecting my performance in other classes so I dropped it as well.

This is why I'm skeptical if I can handle programming. They're gonna probably ask why I dropped these courses if they want to see my transcripts.

There's nothing wrong with getting in over your head on something. You need to evaluate why there was a problem and decide if it is worth your time and energy to rectify the problem. Did you not have enough time to devote to the class? Retake it during a lighter semester. Were you missing some fundamental skills needed to perform well? Study up on those topics before retrying and the class will go more smoothly. Was the class too boring or uninteresting? Try taking it with a different professor.

 

[darkmandaddy]

I feel like I'm getting a 3rd rated education here, not here but at my community college, the teachers practically give me the answer whenever I need help, in C++ all we do is follow the examples in the book, then at the end there's a project thing, so that's the assignment for that chapter. In vb.net it seems easier, but harder to understand it all, follow the book, then use the same code, but mod it a little. Maybe I'm learning this way quicker, not sure. I'm not sure the real world is going to be like this, and kinda loss confidence. What you explained to me in your internships, is something I haven't grasp yet, and it feels like you're out there more than I'am. My job is kinda a help desk, I have a list of things I know but no year experience on it. Don't feel unconfident, if you want the books I used to learn C++, its http://www.amazon.com/Introduc...&qid=1231254785&sr=8-1
This is my c++ II book.
http://www.amazon.com/Object-O...qid=1231254891&sr=1-26
I lost all my work, and I'm thinking about going back to do every assignment in the book for practice. If you need the files, let me know.