Concealed carry weapon discussion

[randay]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused
You said this in response to hearing about liberal CCW laws in Utah.

I asked why you were afraid. YOU do not need to fear gun accidents or suicides.

Nice way to twist the argument, though. To be relevant to your initial claim of fearing people with guns, you must ONLY focus on violent crime.

Unless you're a suicidal idiot who plans on buying a gun and accidentally committing suicide. If that is the case, stay away from a state where you can own a gun.

I still think that is wrong, I'd rather be beaten to an inch of my life and live instead of being shot to death. I have not twisted the arguement, you are simply arguing the wrong argument. I dont care that gun laws lower crime, and I actually dont really care that there are people who are licensed to carry concealed weapons in public. I DO care about the fact that in Utah(according to that guy who i responded to when i said "note to self") you cannot kick someone off your property for carrying a gun. I dont want the tv repair guy to come into my house carrying, and me not be able to do anything about it, or any other situation like that where there would be a gun, when there is no need for it. firearm death rates are the only thing relevant to my fear of being shot.

Again, accidents and suicides are NOT relevant to your fear of being shot unless you are a accident prone suicidal idiot who intends on buying a gun.

Why you cannot see this is beyond me. These have NO bearing whatsoever on your irrational fear of being shot by a lawful CCW permit holder.

So if I get shot by accident or suicide it could not have been prevented by strict gun laws? If there are no guns, how will I get shot by accident? Also btw, I am not only afraid of being shot by accident or suicide, in fact, thats probably not of any concern, I am concerned of being shot on purpose.

What a waste of time. You're not even attempting to understand my point.

the bottom line is this: where there are guns there are shootings and deaths from shootings. If there are no guns, there are no shootings. At any rate I am glad I live in Hawaii and not Utah, or anywhere else where I have to be afraid of guns.

If you still don't understand and continue on insisting that I am afraid of "suicidal idiots with guns" then don't bother. If still you can't comprehend what Im trying to say then you never will.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused
You said this in response to hearing about liberal CCW laws in Utah.

I asked why you were afraid. YOU do not need to fear gun accidents or suicides.

Nice way to twist the argument, though. To be relevant to your initial claim of fearing people with guns, you must ONLY focus on violent crime.

Unless you're a suicidal idiot who plans on buying a gun and accidentally committing suicide. If that is the case, stay away from a state where you can own a gun.

I still think that is wrong, I'd rather be beaten to an inch of my life and live instead of being shot to death. I have not twisted the arguement, you are simply arguing the wrong argument. I dont care that gun laws lower crime, and I actually dont really care that there are people who are licensed to carry concealed weapons in public. I DO care about the fact that in Utah(according to that guy who i responded to when i said "note to self") you cannot kick someone off your property for carrying a gun. I dont want the tv repair guy to come into my house carrying, and me not be able to do anything about it, or any other situation like that where there would be a gun, when there is no need for it. firearm death rates are the only thing relevant to my fear of being shot.

Again, accidents and suicides are NOT relevant to your fear of being shot unless you are a accident prone suicidal idiot who intends on buying a gun.

Why you cannot see this is beyond me. These have NO bearing whatsoever on your irrational fear of being shot by a lawful CCW permit holder.

So if I get shot by accident or suicide it could not have been prevented by strict gun laws? If there are no guns, how will I get shot by accident? Also btw, I am not only afraid of being shot by accident or suicide, in fact, thats probably not of any concern, I am concerned of being shot on purpose.

What a waste of time. You're not even attempting to understand my point.

the bottom line is this: where there are guns there are shootings and deaths from shootings. If there are no guns, there are no shootings. At any rate I am glad I live in Hawaii and not Utah, or anywhere else where I have to be afraid of guns.

If you still don't understand and continue on insisting that I am afraid of "suicidal idiots with guns" then don't bother. If still you can't comprehend what Im trying to say then you never will.

bzzzt! WRONG! ever heard of drugs, like marijuana, cocaine, heroin, etc? they're banned but everyone seems to have easy access to them.

criminals will still get guns no matter what.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused
You said this in response to hearing about liberal CCW laws in Utah.

I asked why you were afraid. YOU do not need to fear gun accidents or suicides.

Nice way to twist the argument, though. To be relevant to your initial claim of fearing people with guns, you must ONLY focus on violent crime.

Unless you're a suicidal idiot who plans on buying a gun and accidentally committing suicide. If that is the case, stay away from a state where you can own a gun.

I still think that is wrong, I'd rather be beaten to an inch of my life and live instead of being shot to death. I have not twisted the arguement, you are simply arguing the wrong argument. I dont care that gun laws lower crime, and I actually dont really care that there are people who are licensed to carry concealed weapons in public. I DO care about the fact that in Utah(according to that guy who i responded to when i said "note to self") you cannot kick someone off your property for carrying a gun. I dont want the tv repair guy to come into my house carrying, and me not be able to do anything about it, or any other situation like that where there would be a gun, when there is no need for it. firearm death rates are the only thing relevant to my fear of being shot.

Again, accidents and suicides are NOT relevant to your fear of being shot unless you are a accident prone suicidal idiot who intends on buying a gun.

Why you cannot see this is beyond me. These have NO bearing whatsoever on your irrational fear of being shot by a lawful CCW permit holder.

So if I get shot by accident or suicide it could not have been prevented by strict gun laws? If there are no guns, how will I get shot by accident? Also btw, I am not only afraid of being shot by accident or suicide, in fact, thats probably not of any concern, I am concerned of being shot on purpose.

What a waste of time. You're not even attempting to understand my point.

the bottom line is this: where there are guns there are shootings and deaths from shootings. If there are no guns, there are no shootings. At any rate I am glad I live in Hawaii and not Utah, or anywhere else where I have to be afraid of guns.

If you still don't understand and continue on insisting that I am afraid of "suicidal idiots with guns" then don't bother. If still you can't comprehend what Im trying to say then you never will.

Again, you are being irrational. You claim your fear is of being shot by someone else on purpose. Then why include suicides and accidents in the stats you use in an attempt to justify your fear?

Randay, give it up. Your fear is irrational. Violent crime stats clearly show you are, on average, less likely to be shot in a CCW state than you are in a state or locality that forbids CCW. Criminals will get guns, whether you ban them or not. Crime statistics prove this. Keeping law abiding citizens from owning or carrying guns only serves to put them in more danger, and make it easier for criminals to victimize.

And finally, there is NO proof that stricter gun laws prevent suicides. They only serve to make people choose another means of killing themselves.

I'm very sorry you cannot look at this issue rationally and objectively. You have an extremely irrational fear of guns.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused
You said this in response to hearing about liberal CCW laws in Utah.

I asked why you were afraid. YOU do not need to fear gun accidents or suicides.

Nice way to twist the argument, though. To be relevant to your initial claim of fearing people with guns, you must ONLY focus on violent crime.

Unless you're a suicidal idiot who plans on buying a gun and accidentally committing suicide. If that is the case, stay away from a state where you can own a gun.

I still think that is wrong, I'd rather be beaten to an inch of my life and live instead of being shot to death. I have not twisted the arguement, you are simply arguing the wrong argument. I dont care that gun laws lower crime, and I actually dont really care that there are people who are licensed to carry concealed weapons in public. I DO care about the fact that in Utah(according to that guy who i responded to when i said "note to self") you cannot kick someone off your property for carrying a gun. I dont want the tv repair guy to come into my house carrying, and me not be able to do anything about it, or any other situation like that where there would be a gun, when there is no need for it. firearm death rates are the only thing relevant to my fear of being shot.

Man, your argument is all over the place.

You just said in a previous post, "Of course there will be less crime because everyone is afraid of being SHOT and DYING because anyone could have a gun hidden in thier coat.". Then you state that you don't like guns because the suicide rate adds to gun death totals.

So you're admitting that there's going to be less crime, but you're still afraid that a TV repairman is going to come into your house with a gun? What's he going to do, kill himself in your house?

It's pretty clear that you have an irrational fear of guns.

qft

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: Amused

Randay, give it up. Your fear is irrational. You have an extremely irrational fear of guns.

Exactly. He still hasn't replied to my last post, because there is no clever answer.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Amused
Again, you are being irrational. You claim your fear is of being shot by someone else on purpose. Then why include suicides and accidents in the stats you use in an attempt to justify your fear?

I am not trying to justify my fear, you are calling me irrational and claiming this is all about my fear so that you can justify your inability to address my points.

Randay, give it up. Your fear is irrational.

see above

Violent crime stats clearly show you are, on average, less likely to be shot in a CCW state than you are in a state or locality that forbids CCW.

Violent crimes do not always end in shootings, violent crimes do not even always involve weapons.

Criminals will get guns, whether you ban them or not. Crime statistics prove this. Keeping law abiding citizens from owning or carrying guns only serves to put them in more danger, and make it easier for criminals to victimize.

guns are rare in Hawaii. shootings are even rarer. the violent crime statistics for Hawaii do not reflect this(because they include more then just crimes with guns involved), but I have lived here for 25 years and I can tell you for a fact.

And finally, there is NO proof that stricter gun laws prevent suicides.

thats not the issue here.

They only serve to make people choose another means of killing themselves.

also not relevant.

I'm very sorry you cannot look at this issue rationally and objectively. You have an extremely irrational fear of guns.

Im very sorry you cannot understand my view on this issue rationally and objectively. You have a problem with people who have differing opinions than you do.

Please answer this question: If I have no gun, can I shoot you?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused
Again, you are being irrational. You claim your fear is of being shot by someone else on purpose. Then why include suicides and accidents in the stats you use in an attempt to justify your fear?

I am not trying to justify my fear, you are calling me irrational and claiming this is all about my fear so that you can justify your inability to address my points.

Randay, give it up. Your fear is irrational.

see above

Violent crime stats clearly show you are, on average, less likely to be shot in a CCW state than you are in a state or locality that forbids CCW.

Violent crimes do not always end in shootings, violent crimes do not even always involve weapons.

Criminals will get guns, whether you ban them or not. Crime statistics prove this. Keeping law abiding citizens from owning or carrying guns only serves to put them in more danger, and make it easier for criminals to victimize.

guns are rare in Hawaii. shootings are even rarer. the violent crime statistics for Hawaii do not reflect this(because they include more then just crimes with guns involved), but I have lived here for 25 years and I can tell you for a fact.

And finally, there is NO proof that stricter gun laws prevent suicides.

thats not the issue here.

They only serve to make people choose another means of killing themselves.

also not relevant.

I'm very sorry you cannot look at this issue rationally and objectively. You have an extremely irrational fear of guns.

Im very sorry you cannot understand my view on this issue rationally and objectively. You have a problem with people who have differing opinions than you do.

Please answer this question: If I have no gun, can I shoot you?

No, the real question is: If you had a gun, would you shoot me? If not, why not? And you'll have the answer you need.

And the next question is this: Why do you fear law abiding cirizens with guns, rather than criminals with guns? Why do you assume law abiding citizens become crimnals simply because they own a gun?

Guns are banned in DC and Chicago... yet gun crimes are through the roof. So stop thinking your Hawaii claims mean anything. The state of Hawaii has no ban on handguns.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: randay

Please answer this question: If I have no gun, can I shoot you?

Yes, bow and arrow, sling shot, crossbow.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Amused

Please answer this question: If I have no gun, can I shoot you?

No

I rest my case.

, the real question is: If you had a gun, would you shoot me? If not, why not? And you'll have the answer you need.

Thats a question you will have you ask yourself if that situation ever arises. Are you willing to bet your life on a guess of another persons character? I am not.

And the next question is this: Why do you fear law abiding cirizens with guns, rather than criminals with guns?

I fear no man.

Why do you assume law abiding citizens become crimnals simply because they own a gun?

I have not and do not assume that.

Guns are banned in DC and Chicago... yet gun crimes are through the roof. So stop thinking your Hawaii claims mean anything. The state of Hawaii has no ban on handguns.

You're right, Hawaii means nothing? My claims mean nothing? The facts mean nothing? Where are you getting these "gun crimes" statistics? Whatever happened to your "Violent Crimes" stats? Illinois is number #31 on the list of firearm deaths per capita. I see now, arguing this is pointless. The only facts that matter to you are the facts that you want to matter. And I have nothing to convince me of said facts other than your word. I asked nicely for some links to these so called statistics you keep spewing, and have none.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused

Please answer this question: If I have no gun, can I shoot you?

No

I rest my case.

, the real question is: If you had a gun, would you shoot me? If not, why not? And you'll have the answer you need.

Thats a question you will have you ask yourself if that situation ever arises. Are you willing to bet your life on a guess of another persons character? I am not.

And the next question is this: Why do you fear law abiding cirizens with guns, rather than criminals with guns?

I fear no man.

Why do you assume law abiding citizens become crimnals simply because they own a gun?

I have not and do not assume that.

Guns are banned in DC and Chicago... yet gun crimes are through the roof. So stop thinking your Hawaii claims mean anything. The state of Hawaii has no ban on handguns.

You're right, Hawaii means nothing? My claims mean nothing? The facts mean nothing? Where are you getting these "gun crimes" statistics? Whatever happened to your "Violent Crimes" stats? Illinois is number #31 on the list of firearm deaths per capita. I see now, arguing this is pointless. The only facts that matter to you are the facts that you want to matter. And I have nothing to convince me of said facts other than your word. I asked nicely for some links to these so called statistics you keep spewing, and have none.

Again, gun death stats that include suicide and accidents are meaningless when talking about YOUR fear of being shot to death. My god, why can you not see that?

As for links. Good gawd. Type in "violent crime by state" in google. How hard is that?

BTW, Illinois bans all CCW and is very restrictive when it comes to firearms. Chicago has almost always made the top 5 when it comes to the cities with the most murders... and Chicago has a total ban on handguns.

Finally, all violent crimes, not just murder, come into play in this debate. Why? Because the fact is that CCW laws reduce all violent crime as criminals fear armed civilians. Funny, so do you. I wonder why?

 

[Number1]

The web site below seams to prove that more gun equal more violence.


From The Case For Gun Control

Arming For Self Protection Does not Work

The easiest response to suggestions that Canadian civilians need guns to protect themselves is to look south to the US to see where arming for self protection leads. While rates of violence in the US are comparable to countries such as Canada, Australia and Great Britain, rates of lethal violence are much higher. For example, murders without guns in the US are about 40% higher (1.4 times the rate) than in Canada while murders WITH handguns are 1500% higher (15 times the rate).

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Number1
The web site below seam to prove that more gun equal more violence.


From The Case For Gun Control

Arming For Self Protection Does not Work

The easiest response to suggestions that Canadian civilians need guns to protect themselves is to look south to the US to see where arming for self protection leads. While rates of violence in the US are comparable to countries such as Canada, Australia and Great Britain, rates of lethal violence are much higher. For example, murders without guns in the US are about 40% higher (1.4 times the rate) than in Canada while murders WITH handguns are 1500% higher (15 times the rate).

Actually, the fact that our murder rate without guns is higher DISPROVES this hairbrained activist nonsense. The US has a violence problem, not a gun problem. It's cultural, not hardware.

And consulting an activist website for "facts" is not valid.

 

[randay]

I value human life above property.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: randay
I value human life above property.

I value my life/property above the lives of those who try to take either by force.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: randay
I value human life above property.

I value my life/property above the lives of those who try to take either by force.

So if an unarmed man grabbed your purse and ran away, you'd shoot him dead ?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: randay
I value human life above property.

I value my life/property above the lives of those who try to take either by force.

So if an unarmed man grabbed your purse and ran away, you'd shoot him dead ?

My first concern would be WTF I'm doing with a purse since I'm a guy.

No, most likely not. Everything I carry is easily replaceable and I'm not concerned for my saftey. It isn't an absolute, that's why we have brains to judge each situation.

Someone breaking into my home, holding up my business, brandishing a weapon against me, etc is certainly fair game IMO.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: randay
I value human life above property.

I value my life/property above the lives of those who try to take either by force.

So if an unarmed man grabbed your purse and ran away, you'd shoot him dead ?

My first concern would be WTF I'm doing with a purse since I'm a guy.

No, most likely not. Everything I carry is easily replaceable and I'm not concerned for my saftey. It isn't an absolute, that's why we have brains to judge each situation.

Someone breaking into my home, holding up my business, brandishing a weapon against me, etc is certainly fair game IMO.

well, I'm glad I cleared that up.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: randay
I value human life above property.

I value my life/property above the lives of those who try to take either by force.

So if an unarmed man grabbed your purse and ran away, you'd shoot him dead ?

Am I protected under State laws if I do?
If so, yeah probably.

The worth of a man isnt in whether he has life or not but rather what he does with it. "Life" is not innocent and precious. Your actions determine the worth of your life.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: K1052

My first concern would be WTF I'm doing with a purse since I'm a guy.

Shens!

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: randay
I value human life above property.

I value my rights above human life.

If no one did, you would have no rights.

I'm just willing to defend my own rights and the rights of other innocents rather than expect others to do it for us.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: K1052

My first concern would be WTF I'm doing with a purse since I'm a guy.

Shens!

Would you like to see my weapon big boy?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: K1052

My first concern would be WTF I'm doing with a purse since I'm a guy.

Shens!

Would you like to see my weapon big boy?

The batteries died, remember?

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: randay
I value human life above property.

I value my life/property above the lives of those who try to take either by force.

So if an unarmed man grabbed your purse and ran away, you'd shoot him dead ?

Am I protected under State laws if I do?
If so, yeah probably.

The worth of a man isnt in whether he has life or not but rather what he does with it. "Life" is not innocent and precious. Your actions determine the worth of your life.

What if you didn't shoot him, and later on he pulled a young boy out of a pond and saved his life then that boy became a doctor who discovered a cure for testicular cancer that saved your life twenty years from now ?

Is killing people over a purse really a sound policy ?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: K1052

My first concern would be WTF I'm doing with a purse since I'm a guy.

Shens!

Would you like to see my weapon big boy?

The batteries died, remember?

Well you wore them out, had I known I'd meet you I would have bought the 220v corded model instead.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: K1052

My first concern would be WTF I'm doing with a purse since I'm a guy.

Shens!

Would you like to see my weapon big boy?

The batteries died, remember?

Well you wore them out, had I known I'd meet you I would have bought the 220v corded model instead.

With the jackhammer motion??? 😀