[Computerbase] GTX960 & R9 380: 2GB vs. 4GB -- Conclusion: Get a 4GB card

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Zodiark1593

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,230
4
81
Well, anybody with one on those awful 2gb 960s can send it to me. I will gladly take it off their hands.

The 960 really isn't a bad card. As Anand would say, it was/is simply overpriced for a supposed high end gpu. A shame they didn't use the GM206 chip more in laptops though. It would be an awesome mid end laptop gpu.
 
Aug 11, 2008
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The 960 really isn't a bad card. As Anand would say, it was/is simply overpriced for a supposed high end gpu. A shame they didn't use the GM206 chip more in laptops though. It would be an awesome mid end laptop gpu.

Well, the point I was trying to make, is that a lot of people would be happy with 40 to 60 FPS without obsessing over frame times, or a bit of stutter or whatever. I mean, is a game really unplayable if the frametime is 30 instead of 20, or there are occasional spikes? In fact, I would like to see blind visual tests to see how many people could distinguish between a game being played on say 2gb 960 vs 4gb.

I will not argue that 4gb is probably a smoother experience, but it is a matter of degree. I mean everyone is entitled to set their own standards, but the venom directed towards the 2gb cards just seems a bit over the top.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,101
5,640
126
Well, the point I was trying to make, is that a lot of people would be happy with 40 to 60 FPS without obsessing over frame times, or a bit of stutter or whatever. I mean, is a game really unplayable if the frametime is 30 instead of 20, or there are occasional spikes? In fact, I would like to see blind visual tests to see how many people could distinguish between a game being played on say 2gb 960 vs 4gb.

I will not argue that 4gb is probably a smoother experience, but it is a matter of degree. I mean everyone is entitled to set their own standards, but the venom directed towards the 2gb cards just seems a bit over the top.

Much of it is simply the Price difference makes it a very poor choice to go with 2gb.
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,349
1,172
136
Well, the point I was trying to make, is that a lot of people would be happy with 40 to 60 FPS without obsessing over frame times, or a bit of stutter or whatever. I mean, is a game really unplayable if the frametime is 30 instead of 20, or there are occasional spikes? In fact, I would like to see blind visual tests to see how many people could distinguish between a game being played on say 2gb 960 vs 4gb.

I will not argue that 4gb is probably a smoother experience, but it is a matter of degree. I mean everyone is entitled to set their own standards, but the venom directed towards the 2gb cards just seems a bit over the top.


If you want to pay me $170 shipped, sure. The only reason I own one is, yet again like the 970, Nvidia offering a free game and a small manufacturer rebate. The gigabyte I bought 3 months ago is still near $190 for 2gb version.


Reminds me that the 7870 I bought for $150 in Dec. 2013 was a damn lucky deal. With all the nonsense Nvidia has done this past year, I think what grinds me gears the most is how long it took them to release the 960 and its price point. Then to bring out the 4gb models a couple of months later, its just a slap in the face. $200 for a card that they market to the moba crowd.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
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Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
1,485
137
106
I don't even know what to say. I'll start with the following:

1) Learn how to read frame time charts
2) Learn how to read the entire review

Your entire a weak attempt to undermine the actual data because the review completely contradicts your post.
Look again at those graphs (for cherry picked games).

Besides that, if yo want to paint a certain image, you can do that by choosing the situations that you know it would validate your desired result. When you want to show that you need more VRAM, you test with Shadow of Mordor (with optional ultra HD textures pack) and with AC: Unity. And use settings with which even the 4GB cards can not sustain 60fps.
 

Leyawiin

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2008
3,204
52
91
The FPS is lower in those games than I would want. If I were using a card in that category and at that resolution I'd probably lower the quality settings downward anyway (to keep closer to my monitor's 60 Hz refresh rate). That said the price differential isn't that much between the 2GB and 4GB cards. If it were my main PC and I was planning on a couple year's use I'd pop for a 4GB. They're only like $20-$30 apart now. That's like skipping a couple of cheap pizzas over two years use.
 

USER8000

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2012
1,542
780
136
Look again at those graphs (for cherry picked games).

Besides that, if yo want to paint a certain image, you can do that by choosing the situations that you know it would validate your desired result. When you want to show that you need more VRAM, you test with Shadow of Mordor (with optional ultra HD textures pack) and with AC: Unity. And use settings with which even the 4GB cards can not sustain 60fps.

Anyone looking at the frametimes would see that all the 2GB cards are noticeably spikier in most of the games tested,than the 4GB cards and at least in the UK,the 4GB GTX960 cards are around the same price as the 2GB ones,so it makes little or no sense to get the 2GB version.

Games are only going to get more VRAM intensive as time progresses.
 

crisium

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2001
2,643
615
136
I'd still like to see a repeat of what Tomshardware did once with the 4870: 512MB vs 1GB vs 2GB. The 4870 was perhaps the only card available in all three memory capacities. I want to see a 7850/370 comparison of 1GB vs 2GB vs 4GB (with equalized clocks of course).
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Anyone looking at the frametimes would see that all the 2GB cards are noticeably spikier in most of the games tested,than the 4GB cards and at least in the UK,the 4GB GTX960 cards are around the same price as the 2GB ones,so it makes little or no sense to get the 2GB version.

Games are only going to get more VRAM intensive as time progresses.

They do not care. They'll label these games as cherry-picked, defend their brand, defend their purchase. I can link more and more games where 2GB of VRAM gimps modern GPUs and they'll ignore them.

Anno 2205
R9 280X 3GB = 34.4 fps
GTX770 2GB = 21.4 fps

That's why NV has 80%+ market share and why we never got a 960Ti. In the past, a card as VRAM/raw GPU horsepower gimped as the 960 would have never sold well. Compared to the good mid-range x60 cards from NV like the GTX460, 560Ti, or even the nothing special 660Ti/760, 960 is the least impressive x60 cards in the last 5 gens. Even the move from GTX460 -> 560 (a refresh!) nets a higher increase in performance than moving from Kepler 760 to Maxwell 960! Terrible.
http://www.computerbase.de/2015-03/geforce-gtx-460-560-660-760-960-vergleich/2/

The 960 really isn't a bad card. As Anand would say, it was/is simply overpriced for a supposed high end gpu.

That makes it a bad product when the competition is offering more performance, more VRAM and offers more price/performance. 960 is really a 950/950Ti and NV never gave us the real 960 (aka 960Ti).

960 beat 760 by only 11-14% despite coming out more than 1.5 years later.

Looking at today's U.S. market:

960 2GB = VRAM gimped, overpriced, already outdated for next gen games due to 2GB of VRAM and weak memory bandwidth
960 4GB = overpriced, loses to R9 380 and 380X.

Essentially with the 960 you either have to buy into the outdated 2GB VRAM card at $165 OR you have to spend $200 and get a card that gets annihilated by a 380X.

R9 380X 4GB = cheapest is $209.99

Even the basic R9 380 smashes 960 in games.

perfrel_1920_1080.png


The main reason NV sold so many 960 cards are: consumer ignorance, brand bias, myths about how AMD ALL cards run hot and loud ensured that people didn't want to buy R9 280/280X/290 despite each of those offering superior price/performance to 960 2-4GB in the US for almost the entire 2015. NV also executed better with OEMs/wholesalers with lots and lots of pre-builts and Intel CPU combos that included the 960 -- essentially in some instances the consumer was never even given the choice between a 960 and 280/280X/290/380. That means in many instances, NV got an automatic sale not because 960 was better or even good but because it was the only choice.

If you bought a 960 2GB for $165-170 close to Q1 2015, it's somewhat understable (although compared to how R9 280X and a barrage of $250 R9 290s, still terrible value), but at today's U.S. prices, the entire 960 line-up is overpriced in reference to the 950, 380, 380X and the 970.

Constant analysis of horrible frame times on 2GB cards basically ensures that someone who is an NV loyalist on a budget should go $137 GTX950 or and someone who wants a good gaming card should move up to the $280 970.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Much of it is simply the Price difference makes it a very poor choice to go with 2gb.

Even the 4GB version is still a bad buy based on the analysis below.

They did, they just called it a 970. And the market treated the 970 as the 960 Ti if you look at the Steam survey despite a price increase. It has to be the most popular $300+ GPU of all time.

:D True, but look at the performance gap between a 960 and 970. When was the last time NV had such a gargantuan gap?

Look at Fermi:

GTX560 = $200
GTX560Ti = $250 (+9% faster than 560)
GTX570 = $350 (+32% faster than 560, +21% faster than 560Ti)

perfrel_1920.gif


GTX960 (based on $200 price supposedly replaces 560 series)
vs.
GTX970 ($330 MSRP -> closely resembles 570's MSRP)

970 is now 73% faster than the 960.
perfrel_1920_1080.png


During Fermi generation, a $350 GTX570 had 32% advantage against a $200 560. During Maxwell generation, that turned into a 73% advantage for the $330 970 against the $200 960. WOW!

Furthermore, 570 had 1.28GB of VRAM at the $350 price vs. 1GB for the $200 560. In contrast, NV launched 960 2GB at $200 and 970 had 3.5GB of VRAM. Yet again, more proof that NV overpriced the gimped the 960 relative to what x60 cards used to be!

As a point of reference, 570 beats GTX460 768MB by 71%. That's how badly NV gimped the 960 this gen.

How much more proof do people need that 960 is the worst x60 series card in at least the last 5 generations? NV gimped it and it should be called 950. But because of NV marketing and brand, they sold well. This is awful because it sets a precedent for NV that they don't even have to try. :thumbsdown:

I will not argue that 4gb is probably a smoother experience, but it is a matter of degree. I mean everyone is entitled to set their own standards, but the venom directed towards the 2gb cards just seems a bit over the top.

If you need a budget upgrade from your card, EVGA B-stock had GTX670 2-4GB cards for $29.99 and $39.99. I PMed a couple guys on our forum about those deals but since I didn't know you were looking for a budget upgrade, I missed you :(.

Right now someone looking to maximize budget price/performance is better off looking for an after-market HD7970. You'd get 3GB of VRAM and more performance than the 960 for probably $100-110 max.
 
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Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
1,485
137
106
Anyone looking at the frametimes would see that all the 2GB cards are noticeably spikier in most of the games tested,than the 4GB cards and at least in the UK,the 4GB GTX960 cards are around the same price as the 2GB ones,so it makes little or no sense to get the 2GB version.

Games are only going to get more VRAM intensive as time progresses.
"Noyiceably spikier", like this?
hgzHOA7.png


Of course if the prices are close there is no point in buying the 2GB version instead of the 4GB version of the graphics card. But sometimes (like for instance when the 4GB version were launched or even now on some markets, other than US), the price difference is/was relatively big.
 

UaVaj

Golden Member
Nov 16, 2012
1,546
0
76
do not kid yourself. those frame rate are hardly enjoyable.

reduce game setting for enjoyable frame rate and the "single" 2gb card will be fine.
 

96Firebird

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 2010
5,711
316
126
Of course if the prices are close there is no point in buying the 2GB version instead of the 4GB version of the graphics card. But sometimes (like for instance when the 4GB version were launched or even now on some markets, other than US), the price difference is/was relatively big.

This...

do not kid yourself. those frame rate are hardly enjoyable.

reduce game setting for enjoyable frame rate and the "single" 2gb card will be fine.

And this.

The fear mongering here is a bit ridiculous. D:
 

xorbe

Senior member
Sep 7, 2011
368
0
76
do not kid yourself. those frame rate are hardly enjoyable.

reduce game setting for enjoyable frame rate and the "single" 2gb card will be fine.

Every time that is pointed that out, the hate train arrives. Apparently everyone wants to run with the ultra "benchmark" settings, even though they own a humble gfx card.

My 960 is not nearly as powerful as my Titan X, but with the correct settings, the 960 is just fine. *shrug*

edit: But yeah I agree that the 960 is a lousy perf/$ deal, and grab the 4GB model if you can swing because why not, cheap vram insurance. 960 sells because it's less than $200, and the 970 isn't.
 
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UaVaj

Golden Member
Nov 16, 2012
1,546
0
76
Every time that is pointed that out, the hate train arrives. Apparently everyone wants to run with the ultra "benchmark" settings, even though they own a humble gfx card.

My 960 is not nearly as powerful as my Titan X, but with the correct settings, the 960 is just fine. *shrug*

heck I am running 290x x4 and can barely saturate 4gb when enjoyable frame rate is taken into consideration. and a single 960/380 want 4gb.

perhaps some of them are more concerns about benchmarking then actual game play. more power to them.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
"Noyiceably spikier", like this?
hgzHOA7.png


Of course if the prices are close there is no point in buying the 2GB version instead of the 4GB version of the graphics card. But sometimes (like for instance when the 4GB version were launched or even now on some markets, other than US), the price difference is/was relatively big.

Yup, way to ignore all the other games in the review, along with Far Cry 4, Wolfenstein NWO, Mortal Kombat X, Black Ops 3, Batman AK, Dead Rising 3, Skyrim modded, GTA IV modded, all upcoming 2016 games that will smoke 2GB cards.

Besides the argument of 2GB vs. 4GB costing more isn't logical for brand agnostic consumers due to the existence of R9 280/R9 280X nearly the entire time GTX960 2GB was on the market.

I get it though that some people on here only buy NV cards...so I guess to them no AMD alternatives existed even when said alternatives were faster and had 3GB of VRAM.

My other prediction was that 950/960/285 owners would be upgrading yet again to get a card 70-90% faster -- but wait for it that's exactly what 970/390 are. That means even before we talk about 2GB vs. 4GB of VRAM, the 950/960/285 are going to be hit with a double whammy of VRAM gimping + higher total cost of ownership and worse performance than an R9 290/970/390 for the last 12-15 months and the next period of owning the overpriced low end 2GB cards.

heck I am running 290x x4 and can barely saturate 4gb when enjoyable frame rate is taken into consideration. and a single 960/380 want 4gb.

perhaps some of them are more concerns about benchmarking then actual game play. more power to them.

As I already pointed out in this post, your comparison isn't valid. VRAM requirements do not operate in steps of 2GB -> 4GB -> 6GB, etc.

If a game exceeds 2GB by even 300MB, it's stuttering. You might not saturate 4GB on 290Xs in some games but some games clearly saturate 3.5GB at playable fps.

My 960 is not nearly as powerful as my Titan X, but with the correct settings, the 960 is just fine. *shrug*

With the same settings, 380 4GB and 960 4GB perform just fine. So the problem is 380/960 2GB cards.

If this thread was ONLY about 380 2GB vs. 4GB, no one would say anything and just accept the truth. Since some of the people in this thread either own an NV 2GB card or specifically own 960 2GB, they are defending their card/purchase. That's all there is. Objective gamers called out 2GB as failures and advized people to stay clear of them way back when R9 285 2GB came out. Some people on this forum just do not recall that at all (i.e., how many of us flat out recommended buying 280/280X and skipping 285 because of its 2GB of VRAM).

But now that the issue his hit an NV card, it's defense mode in effect.

The fear mongering here is a bit ridiculous. D:

Right now as it stands at current US prices, 2GB cards from AMD or NV that are priced at $160-200 cannot be recommended. It's not fear mongering, it's facts. There is a difference. I sure do not remember you making any fuss about some of us steering gamers far from HD4870 512MB, X1950XT 256MB, R9 285 2GB, HD6950 1GB when cards with 50-100% the VRAM were better buys for keeping beyond the first 9 months. But since day 1 I do remember how you never pointed out any of the flaws of the 960.

HERESY.

Fortunately, the second coming is upon us. But this time the son of god appears in his true form, that of a 380x. ():)

Yup, I like to point out the hypocrisy of certain team members who ignore awful price/performance and VRAM limits but only when it comes to their brand. I can see how some of them are stuck between a rock and a hard place between $160-180 GTX960 2GB is VRAM gimped -- cannot be objectively recommended -- and $210 R9 380X smashes 960 4GB in price/performance. I guess that means NV has a gigantic gap of no card worth buying between $150->$280 space. It's no wonder this thread created so much controversy among the loyalists of a certain team. Notice how no one is denying how 380 4GB is a better buy against R9 380 2GB from the objective members of this forum. Just saying. :sneaky:
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
It's a crying shame that AMD did not release a 4GB full Tonga 285X when they released the 285.

If you had bought this fictitious 285X back then, you'd still have a nice card today.
 

Zodiark1593

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,230
4
81
Given vram requirements, I'd also suggest that the 128 bit bus (well, the entire memory subsystem really) hamstrings this card severely.

This would explain
A) the sometimes massive 50-70% gulf between the 960 and 970 despite being no more than %33 apart in shader power in favor of the 970, often closer. The 970 has 2x the memory bandwidth.
B) The small 5%-15% performance bump going from a 950 to a 960 despite there being +25% more shader power in the latter, but same memory bandwidth.
C) Sizeable performance increases in RAM overclocking of the 960 (at least in my experience).

If one were to look at compute power alone, the 960 is reasonably capable, at ~3 TFLOPS easily stomping the PS4/Xbox into the ground. The problem is the core is being quite starved by a grossly underspec memory subsystem, therefore wasting otherwise good compute in gaming loads. It seems like newer games are really favoring a strong memory subsystem to handle the additional data.

It takes both compute and a robust memory subsystem to feed it to have a good card. With this in mind, I too recommend staying away from the 960 if running modern games in Ultra settings is important.
 
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escrow4

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2013
3,339
122
106
4GB GPUs for what single player games. In 2015:

GTA V - Bleh single player campaign, can't believe I waited that long for meh

Witcher III - OK, preferred II

Fallout 4 - OK again, creaky old engine holding it back

Mad Max - Shadow of Mordor re-skinned

Dying Light - Wasn't that heavy

Just Cause 3/Phantom Pain - didn't bother

Where are all the games that have quality single player games that are fresh AND utilize shiny new GPUs?
 

Zodiark1593

Platinum Member
Oct 21, 2012
2,230
4
81
4GB GPUs for what single player games. In 2015:

GTA V - Bleh single player campaign, can't believe I waited that long for meh

Witcher III - OK, preferred II

Fallout 4 - OK again, creaky old engine holding it back

Mad Max - Shadow of Mordor re-skinned

Dying Light - Wasn't that heavy

Just Cause 3/Phantom Pain - didn't bother

Where are all the games that have quality single player games that are fresh AND utilize shiny new GPUs?
Probably non-existent. :p

I don't have any games newer than 2013 myself, so meh. Catching up on most of the stuff I missed as I came from a dreadfully weak Radeon 5470 GPU. Think a 960 is weak? Try a 5470 for a bit. I eagerly await your tears of blood.
 

Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
1,485
137
106
Besides the argument of 2GB vs. 4GB costing more isn't logical for brand agnostic consumers due to the existence of R9 280/R9 280X nearly the entire time GTX960 2GB was on the market.
At launch, 4GB versions of GTX 960 and R9 380 were even 20%-25% more expensive than the 2GB versions, at least here.

If something isn't logical is to ignore the price of a product. Someone who looks into GTX 960 or R9 380 does that because he/she can not afford more expensive cards, like GTX 970 or R9 390. If you look just at price/performance, then GTX 970 and R9 390 are much better deals than GTX 960/R9 380. You have to understand budget limits.
 
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