Computer Sciences or Information Systems?

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: Ameesh
IS is for CS flunkies and anyone who tells you otherwise is a flunkie themselves

Spoken like a true software engineer. Get your head out from behind that screen once in a while, k ?

i don't believe you have an accurate conception of what a successful computer science graduate is like. have you ever met people that work at microsoft? amazon? google? they're quite articulate and sociable. i'm sorry, but it's just rediculous to think that a CS major is going to be passed over for an IS because CS majors aren't perceived to have business sense. that's what interviews are for.

and for the guy saying that CS majors don't get the big picture - your school must have had a crappy CS program, because what you described (routers and java) is not what we learn at all. if anything, CS prepares you better for "the big picture".

 

[agnitrate]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: Ameesh
IS is for CS flunkies and anyone who tells you otherwise is a flunkie themselves

Spoken like a true software engineer. Get your head out from behind that screen once in a while, k ?

i don't believe you have an accurate conception of what a successful computer science graduate is like. have you ever met people that work at microsoft? amazon? google? they're quite articulate and sociable. i'm sorry, but it's just rediculous to think that a CS major is going to be passed over for an IS because CS majors aren't perceived to have business sense. that's what interviews are for.

and for the guy saying that CS majors don't get the big picture - your school must have had a crappy CS program, because what you described (routers and java) is not what we learn at all. if anything, CS prepares you better for "the big picture".

That's what I've been lead to believe as well. Our lecturers described how people studying the knowledge of today will be scrambling to catch up as technology ramps in the next few years. CS gives more of a base upon which it takes only a little bit of extrapolation to incorporate new technologies. In my latest CS class (Data Structures and Algorithms), almost none of the algorithms were given in 'code' form. It is entirely theoretical and after you understand how it works in theory, you apply it in code form. My take on the people studying CIS and other variations is that they're just learning the code portion and not why/how it works, why it's better (big O) than other algorithms. I think it better prepares you for an abstract way of thinking about computers and the actual science part of it, not it's physical implementation. Just my two cents.

-silver

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: Gibson486
I dont get why people say MIS is for CS flunkies. It is not true at all. A CS major can do the programming aspect of IS (they usually do something along the lines of VB w/.NET), but i doubt a CS major could the business aspect of the job, which requires more than the understanding of an algorithm. LIke wyvrn said, CS majors will fail to see teh big picture of at all.....

Again,
CS != programming.
For you IS guys, that means NOT EQUAL.

CS majors learn more than just how to program. They learn more than just "understanding of an algorithm".
Yes, programming is generally the primary focus. But we also learn systems analysis, database design, networking, etc.
Basically, we learn how to look at a problem or a need, and how to design an information system (database, networks, applications, etc.) to best solve the problem. In my job as a software engineer/programmer/analyst, one of my main responsibilities is to work with the client (department managers in my case) to make sure I have a very good understanding of what they want and what they need (often not the same thing). This means I need to have a very good understanding of what their department does and how they do it to be able to design a system that will properly meet their needs and improve their process. Often, I am involved in discussions about the "business aspect of the job" because in many cases, my project has the potential to make positive changes to the way they do their job and bring them functionality they never had before.

So I think we see more of the big picture than you might think. Besides, knowing the technical details gives you a much better understanding of what will and what won't work when you are designing a system.
Now it may be true that an MIS with a substantial amount of graduate work in business will be better qualified to manage and participate in business decisions.
But in most cases, those with bachelor's degrees in IS fields have simply substituted a few undergrad accounting or business principles courses for the more technical CS classes. And that really doesn't make you any more qualified to do the "business side" of a job.

I certainly wouldn't want someone with an Information Systems degree to be designing my Information System.

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: Ameesh
IS is for CS flunkies and anyone who tells you otherwise is a flunkie themselves

Spoken like a true software engineer. Get your head out from behind that screen once in a while, k ?

i don't believe you have an accurate conception of what a successful computer science graduate is like. have you ever met people that work at microsoft? amazon? google? they're quite articulate and sociable. i'm sorry, but it's just rediculous to think that a CS major is going to be passed over for an IS because CS majors aren't perceived to have business sense. that's what interviews are for.

and for the guy saying that CS majors don't get the big picture - your school must have had a crappy CS program, because what you described (routers and java) is not what we learn at all. if anything, CS prepares you better for "the big picture".

this lowly CS grad has dealt with both technical and business aspects of the job in fact a few months ago i dealt with the clients of an 8 figure contract. i probably have more exposure to the business side of projects then most of the IS majors out there. IS majors are hacks who are either lazy and dont want to work hard or they cant handle the difficulty of a rigorous CS program. the simple matter of it is, is when i am meeting with clients or designing/implementing systems to solve a problem the IS major will be installing software on someones desktop and or trying to fix a printer or some other task like that. now don't get me wrong i have no problem with that kind of work, someones got to do it and it is essential in keeping a business running smoothly but to claim that they have any sort of skills above a CS major (from a good program) is a joke and self-delusional.

 

[atom]

When you get out into the real world, you'll realize that a lot of what you learn in school means nothing. Your IS or CS degree doesn't really prepare you for the real world as well as you think it does. So what would I rather have on my resume? CS.

If I graduate with a CS degree and can program integral parts of an information system, why can't I design it as well? It's something every CS major learns, and I doubt that IS majors have any advantage in that case.

 

[DougK62]

A CS degree is faaaaaaar better than an IS degree.

There is no comparison.

 

[ultimatebob]

I'd say to get an IS major, because having a CS major seems to limit your career choices.

CS majors usually end up being programmers, which isn't a very safe career to be entering right now. Most big companies are outsourcing their programming to India and China right now, so you might find yourself having problems finding a job when you graduate.

IS majors, on the other hand, seem to learn a greater variety of skills. They often qualify for other jobs such as a database administrator, systems administrator, or systems analyst, which pay more and offer job security than programming jobs.

Also, with your pre-existing management degree, you have a good chance of becoming a project manager or getting a consulting job with an IS major. Big businesses like people who understand the business models and corporate politics as well as just the code.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: Gibson486
I dont get why people say MIS is for CS flunkies. It is not true at all. A CS major can do the programming aspect of IS (they usually do something along the lines of VB w/.NET), but i doubt a CS major could the business aspect of the job, which requires more than the understanding of an algorithm. LIke wyvrn said, CS majors will fail to see teh big picture of at all.....

could you provide us with an example where a CS major can't do what an MIS can?

How much background do you have with MRP/ERP?

I find CS students paint themselves into a corner by mainly focusing on programming, mathematics, and software engineering. I hate to break it to you, but the IT world is not like that. I was a CS major and then I realized that it was a silly choice. Wanted to experience business, design, management, operations, etc. IS gives students something that all businesses need and these skills can be put in any department. With CS you will always been in IT.

 

[notfred]

Originally posted by: DaZ

Originally posted by: igowerf

Originally posted by: AbsolutDealage
CS is the more useful degree (IMO), and in my experience companies will (almost) always accept a CS degree as proof of general computer knowledge (read: you can get basically any lower level IS job with a CS degree).

I've found that a lot of CS students don't know how to do much except programming.

Yup I know lots that dont know anything about routing, or video cards.. or L2 cache performance...

Almost no one knows about video cards and L2 cache performance except for the people that build them.

Geeky video game fanatics love to talk about them, but don't really know anything about them. It's funny when people think they have some superior computer knowledge because they know that an ATI XYZ card is faster in Game X than an Nvidia Geforce 10 card is, as if it really helps them get work done everyday.

 

[vi edit]

It's pretty much a moot point because a future employer is going to reprogram you to fit their needs anyway.

Take the path that interests you and concetrate on getting real world experience through an internship or part time/full time work.

It's your group skills, trouble shooting skills, ability to interact with co-workers and customers, and actual on the job coding/networking/help desk staffing that's going to get you a job over someone else. Not a difference in degrees.

 

[wyvrn]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: Gibson486
I dont get why people say MIS is for CS flunkies. It is not true at all. A CS major can do the programming aspect of IS (they usually do something along the lines of VB w/.NET), but i doubt a CS major could the business aspect of the job, which requires more than the understanding of an algorithm. LIke wyvrn said, CS majors will fail to see teh big picture of at all.....

could you provide us with an example where a CS major can't do what an MIS can?

Most studies I have seen show just that. CS guys do not neccessarily make good system designers. They can code and fix, but matching a system to business needs, WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY and technology in general, is generally not their strong point. This is not my opinion. This is the result of millions of dollars of research into systems analysis and design. You have to have people that know what the heck the business process is, then decide what systems we need to automate, and then automate them. I just got out of my Information Systems Management class, where the instructor stated (who has a PhD) that in his 20 years in business, most companies buy a bunch of computers before knowing what they are going to do with them. You have to understand what you need done before you build it. CS guys build it, Analysists figure out WHAT needs to be built in the first place. They are two different things. [taunt]You can argue with me all you want, but all you need to do is sit in on my classes with people smarter than you and it will become all clear [/taunt]

And no Jzero, not everyone starts off at the helpdesk and then codes and then becomes an analyst. I have 3 good friends hired RIGHT OUT OF COLLEGE who became system analysts at large Fortune 500 companies (KPMG, Dynegy, et al) Why? Because their 4 years of training was in how to analyze a business, develop a system, and then recommend a solution. They were already a step ahead of you, the CS god, who never got the business process training.

Admittedly I have no business experience, but how do you deisgn a system without coding? Or are you just talking about the task of hooking computers together?

Here is the problem. You have no idea what an analyst does. IT people hook computers together. Analysts try to figure out why the hell IT people NEED to hook computers together. What use is technology without a purpose?

I'm confused again. What kind of classes do IS/MIS people take? Do they just design physical system layouts and what not? I always thought it's just some basic programming classes and the rest is just a standard business degree to go along with it.

-silver

I have taken all sorts of classes. I started out with general business, two semesters of accounting, finance, economics, and marketing. Then I took Intro to Information Technology (studied decision support systems, general concepts). Then I took database management (wrote SQL code and used MS Access to design a database for a Dr's office from the ground up.) I have taken Java I and now am taking C++ II. I took Business Data Communications, which taught all the networking/OSI/client server type of stuff. I am taking systems analysis and design, where we use a CASE tool to design a information system (everything) for a local business, from the ground up. Next semester I will take Systems Development project, where we build a prototype system. (At this point, the analyst would pass off the code work to the code guys. ) Then we also take stuff like statistics, calc I and II, linear algebra, and organization management (applied business statistics using control charts, etc... ). I have about 5 more classes to take where I can choose more programming, more design, or stuff like international business. So as you can see, it is a mix of understanding businesses and the technology behind them.

this lowly CS grad has dealt with both technical and business aspects of the job in fact a few months ago i dealt with the clients of an 8 figure contract. i probably have more exposure to the business side of projects then most of the IS majors out there. IS majors are hacks who are either lazy and dont want to work hard or they cant handle the difficulty of a rigorous CS program. the simple matter of it is, is when i am meeting with clients or designing/implementing systems to solve a problem the IS major will be installing software on someones desktop and or trying to fix a printer or some other task like that. now don't get me wrong i have no problem with that kind of work, someones got to do it and it is essential in keeping a business running smoothly but to claim that they have any sort of skills above a CS major (from a good program) is a joke and self-delusional.

I don't know any MIS grads who work in IT. Most of them become analysts, developing mutli-million dollar computer systems and networks. I worked in IT without a degree for awhile. But I wouldn't spend $80k on a degree just to setup a basic lan or troubleshoot Lotus Notes. High schoolers can do that and did where I worked. Your notion of IS/MIS grads is completely uneducated.

Sorry for the ultra-long post. Off to class!

 

[Winchester]

Information Systems, a business degree will go a lot further than a CS.

 

[CanOWorms]

EE > CS > IS

I just like to say this to annoy CS people and laugh at how they try to say it isn't (similar to how IS people try to deny that CS > IS )

 

[WobbleWobble]

Originally posted by: JetBlack69
Programming = CS
Working in a business to update their computer software = IS

It sounds like you should do IS.

I would choose IS. Computers (business-wise) aren't tools themselves, but only useful when they help the business improve in something. It's something that CS people generally don't learn.

CS people can make their own programming languages and OSes, but big whoop. What can it for me?

My 2 cents.

 

[Danman]

Originally posted by: Ameesh
IS is for CS flunkies and anyone who tells you otherwise is a flunkie themselves

I cannot believe you said that. That is so not true, I chose IST (Information Systems Tech.) because I want to get in the business/IT field, not some programmer. Thanks for the kind words.

 

[vi edit]

To fan the flames -

IS/IT has to fix CS's fsckups

 

[Danman]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
To fan the flames -

IS/IT has to fix CS's fsckups

Hhahaha.

But seriously guys, my Dad has his Masters in Electrical Engineering. Guess what he's been doing? He's a Sun Microsystems Reseller.

He told me don't really worry that piece of paper, just get into the field you like to do and experience is what really counts.

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
To fan the flames -

IS/IT has to fix CS's fsckups

lol very true. :beer: our support guys are awsome and we would be up a creek without a paddle without them

 

[Gibson486]

Do half of you even know what classes MIS students take? True MIS is only a fraction of the programming skill that CS majors have, but it's because MIS majors really dont need the other stuff. In school, the programming that a MIS majors takes (atleast at NU) is Basic with applications in .NET. Doesn't seem like much, but it is all they have to know. If they need, they can become familiar with syntax differences that other languages have. They do not need to know binary trees or any of that stuff because their job has no use for it. Their job is to get companies prepared for what technology hold tomorrow. They don't make the programs that the companies use, they just become familiar with it so they can impliment it.

 

[cchen]

You all really don't seem to have a sense of the real world. Oakenfold has not really stated what his career goals are and what field he's interested in going into. In any case, it really doesn't matter if he goes into CS or IS. If he wants to be an analyst, after he gets an interview its all him. His degree really doesn't mean a thing. Since you said you didn't like finance I'm assuming you don't want to do anything related to it. Here's a short breakdown -

consulting - degree doesn't matter
IT development/programming - either won't matter

Any CS major can do just as well in business as any other major. Hell, music majors can get jobs as investment bankers and consultants, so its really what kind of skills you can bring to the table.

and btw, CS is more difficult than IS. no doubt

 

[funks]

Here's my take on it.. Being both CS and IS..

I personally believe IS due to the business classes provides one with the tools needed to run a business later. Basically, without business skills (or knowledge of how business works), you will always be working for somebody else. Moreover, it's hard to design business systems and business process without the knowledge of how said business processes are supposed to work.

CS on the other hand is great but you must realize that without proper business knowledge, you will always be working for somebody else. Technology / R&D is just a secondary function of the business, not primary.

If you still don't understand what I stated above.. Good luck

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

IS majors, on the other hand, seem to learn a greater variety of skills. They often qualify for other jobs such as a database administrator, systems administrator, or systems analyst, which pay more and offer job security than programming jobs.

Just take a look at job postings for dba's and systems analysts.
I think you will find most of them looking for a CS major.

For the third time:
CS != PROGRAMMER

 

[gopunk]

I don't know any MIS grads who work in IT. Most of them become analysts, developing mutli-million dollar computer systems and networks. I worked in IT without a degree for awhile. But I wouldn't spend $80k on a degree just to setup a basic lan or troubleshoot Lotus Notes. High schoolers can do that and did where I worked. Your notion of IS/MIS grads is completely uneducated.

Sorry for the ultra-long post. Off to class!

most of the MIS grads i know are unemployed.

 

[wyvrn]

Originally posted by: gopunk

I don't know any MIS grads who work in IT. Most of them become analysts, developing mutli-million dollar computer systems and networks. I worked in IT without a degree for awhile. But I wouldn't spend $80k on a degree just to setup a basic lan or troubleshoot Lotus Notes. High schoolers can do that and did where I worked. Your notion of IS/MIS grads is completely uneducated.

Sorry for the ultra-long post. Off to class!

most of the MIS grads i know are unemployed.

Most of the CS grads I know are unemployed or working helpdesk (a job I held with a high school education). So what? The tech bubble affected everyone. Businesses will hire what they need when they need it, so some MIS and CS grads will need to retrain in another field that is in demand. This does not mean either is obsolete, it was just a market correction.

Here's my take on it.. Being both CS and IS..

I personally believe IS due to the business classes provides one with the tools needed to run a business later. Basically, without business skills (or knowledge of how business works), you will always be working for somebody else. Moreover, it's hard to design business systems and business process without the knowledge of how said business processes work.

CS on the other hand is great but you must realize that without proper business knowledge, you will always be working for somebody else. Technology / R&D is just a secondary function of the business, not primary.

Agree.

consulting - degree doesn't matter
IT development/programming - either won't matter

Any CS major can do just as well in business as any other major. Hell, music majors can get jobs as investment bankers and consultants, so its really what kind of skills you can bring to the table.

and btw, CS is more difficult than IS. no doubt

More difficult from a raw work standpoint. However IS has some major challenges. I love to see CS "guys" flounder when trying to develop an information system. It's kind of funny. They are so stuck on the programming algorithms they cannot see the forest for the trees. As funks said, you have to know the business side to develop a business system. By the way, I have been a licensed broker. All that consisted of was passing 3 fairly rigorous exams. This DOES NOT a successful business person make. A degee in business is MUCH MORE in depth than the training for a basic financial planner. It encompasses all aspects of the business, and the more you know, the more likely you are to succeed.

"70 percent or more of information systems development projects have failed to meet expectations, cost more than budgeted, and are delivered much later than promised. The Gartner Group suggests that 'consistent adherence to moderately rigorous methodology guidelines can provide 70 percent of organizations with a productivity improvement of at least 30 percent'. Increasingly, organizations have no choice but to adopt and follow a standardized systems development process.... Finally, the US Government has madated that any organization seeking to develop software for the governemtn must adhere to certain quality management requirements"

-- Systems Analysis & Design Methods: Whitten, Bently, Dittman, 2004. page 84

In other words, focusing just on the technology does not work. Enter the Systems Analyst.

 

[DWW]

Originally posted by: Ameesh
IS is for CS flunkies and anyone who tells you otherwise is a flunkie themselves