Compromise on Abortion

[imported_tss4]

I have a question for both sides of this issue. It seems to me that the main sticking point for Pro Life, obviously, is that they consider abortion murder. For Pro-Choicers its that its irresponsible to bring unwanted children in to the world (and they don't consider it murder at that point). How about a compromise. Abortion would be illegal except in cases of medical emergency (and possibly rape) BUT to address the concerns of pro-choice people there would be a strong education program to yound adults and teens to use birth control including the free distribution of BC pills and condoms. If you can get most people using BC pills AND condoms, you would reduce the amount of unwanted children to virtually zero and since abortion would only be used in cases to save the mother, abortion would be effectively zero. For this to work conservatives would have to actively push birth control or we'd be stuck with many unwanted pregnancies. (They can still say that the only way for NO pregnancies is abstinance, but they'd still have to promote birth control). Seems like a compromise that could work. what do you say?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

This would not be such a divisive issue if the sides would agree to a compromise like this. What you've proposed would be unacceptable to both sides.

For starters, you've oversimplified, and misstated, the position of pro-choice people - it's not that they feel abortion is a needed mechanism for culling the population of unwanted children, it's that they feel women should have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies. Your "compromise" effectively gives nothing to the pro-choice side, and everything to the pro-life side.

I tend to think it's morally dishonest to be pro-life, but to allow abortion in cases of rape - if the fetus' life is as valuable as any other human's, how does it become less valuable because the pregnancy occurred during a rape. Interestingly, IIRC, a woman is proportionally MORE likely to become pregnant when raped, than through consensual sex.

 

[imported_tss4]

Well, I can see it being unnaceptable to the pro-choicers, but it doesn't seem that bad to pro-lifers.

That's too bad. If either side would learn to give an inch without fretting over losig everything, I think we could find a reasonable compromise.

 

[Darkhawk28]

A compromise could be reached if both sides wouldn't put their hands over their ears yelling "LALALALALALALALALALA"

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: tss4
Well, I can see it being unnaceptable to the pro-choicers, but it doesn't seem that bad to pro-lifers.

That's too bad. If either side would learn to give an inch without fretting over losig everything, I think we could find a reasonable compromise.

Again, though, how is it a "reasonable compromise" if only one side gives anything up?

As I said above, both sides view this as a moral/ethical issue that doesn't allow for much if any leeway.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: DonVito
<blockquote>quote:
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>tss4</b></i>
Well, I can see it being unnaceptable to the pro-choicers, but it doesn't seem that bad to pro-lifers.

That's too bad. If either side would learn to give an inch without fretting over losig everything, I think we could find a reasonable compromise.<hr></blockquote>

Again, though, how is it a "reasonable compromise" if only one side gives anything up?

As I said above, both sides view this as a moral/ethical issue that doesn't allow for much if any leeway.

To be quite honest I'm pro choice and this heavily favors pro life people. What I wanted to know was whether pro-lifers would even agree to something where pro-choice has given so much or whether their attitude was all or nothing. From a pro-choice issue, is we could use real sex education to prevent unwanted pregnancy before they start, we would curb some of the controversy. I was just wondering if pro-life people would even acknowledge that such a program would make their position more reasonable.

 

[NJDevil]

Ok, so if you teach high school kids about safe sex (which you should), and a condom breaks, tough luck?

 

[DWW]

What you fail to realize is that no matter how many solutions you kick to the left, they will say that you are still "invading" the woman's "right" to her own body, the tribe about how wrong idealism is and so forth and that it is ultimately her own decision.

But from the right, they will tell you that murder is still murder and that abortion of a rape victim is still abortion nonetheless. Is it a shame that she was raped? Certainly. But what about the baby--was it it's own fault? No.

You can't meet in the middle. It isn't possible.

Edit: bleh I never read the thread, Don Vito posted similar thought.

 

[DWW]

Originally posted by: NJDevil
Ok, so if you teach high school kids about safe sex (which you should), and a condom breaks, tough luck?

And the girl is on the pill and the guy has vasectomy done.... nope, no problems

(kidding... but being double safe isn't a bad thing )

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: tss4
I have a question for both sides of this issue. It seems to me that the main sticking point for Pro Life, obviously, is that they consider abortion murder. For Pro-Choicers its that its irresponsible to bring unwanted children in to the world (and they don't consider it murder at that point). How about a compromise. Abortion would be illegal except in cases of medical emergency (and possibly rape) BUT to address the concerns of pro-choice people there would be a strong education program to yound adults and teens to use birth control including the free distribution of BC pills and condoms. If you can get most people using BC pills AND condoms, you would reduce the amount of unwanted children to virtually zero and since abortion would only be used in cases to save the mother, abortion would be effectively zero. For this to work conservatives would have to actively push birth control or we'd be stuck with many unwanted pregnancies. (They can still say that the only way for NO pregnancies is abstinance, but they'd still have to promote birth control). Seems like a compromise that could work. what do you say?

If the main Pro-Choice point is that it's irresponsible to bring an unwanted child into the world, why don't they argue that sex is a choice? By not having sex, you can prevent the entire problem of ending a human life, which may or may not be a 'person.' They don't because this isn't convenient for them, whereas abortion is.

The problem with the compromise that you propose is that if abortion is murder, there should never be exceptions to allow it. Any doctor can declare something 'necessary for the health of the mother' simply by saying she will undergo physical trauma during the birth (as does every mother). Further, does a fetus that is the product of rape have any less of a right to live than any other?

Finally, condoms and BC pills don't solve the real problem here, and that is a lack of sexual responsibility. It is well known that condoms fail up to 10% of the time, even when properly used. Planned Parenthood has admitted that when abortion business is slow, they go to high schools and middle schools to distribute condoms. Within a couple months, business is through the roof. Birth control in general instills a false sense of security. Even something that successfully prevents pregnancy will not prevent the spread of STDs (condoms and birth control pills are NOT effective in preventing STDs - the average condom contains holes on the order of 10 micrometers in diameter, whereas the HIV virus is 1 micron in diameter).

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: tss4
Well, I can see it being unnaceptable to the pro-choicers, but it doesn't seem that bad to pro-lifers.

That's too bad. If either side would learn to give an inch without fretting over losig everything, I think we could find a reasonable compromise.

The problem is, when viewed from a pro-life perspective, there can be no compromise. Human life is not something that should be compromised just to placate people who disagree. DWW stated this very well.

 

[imported_tss4]

Welp, that was an emphatic NO from both sides. Guess 50% of the people will just have to be pissed on this issue. Allthough, CycloWizard, you claimed the Planned Parenthood admitted that they distribute condoms to get the number of abortions up. That's a pretty heavy charge. Do you have any proof of this? And yes, teens need to understand that the only 100% safe approach is no sex, but we need to address the issue of them having sex and teach them what they need to know. They will have sex. So they need to be prepared to make responsible decisions.

 

[NJDevil]

Originally posted by: tss4
Welp, that was an emphatic NO from both sides. Guess 50% of the people will just have to be pissed on this issue. Allthough, CycloWizard, you claimed the Planned Parenthood admitted that they distribute condoms to get the number of abortions up. That's a pretty heavy charge. Do you have any proof of this? And yes, teens need to understand that the only 100% safe approach is no sex, but we need to address the issue of them having sex and teach them what they need to know. They will have sex. So they need to be prepared to make responsible decisions.

No no no, haven't you learned that no safe sex education leads to less sex?

Can't believe people actually believe that is the case.
:roll:

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: tss4
Welp, that was an emphatic NO from both sides. Guess 50% of the people will just have to be pissed on this issue. Allthough, CycloWizard, you claimed the Planned Parenthood admitted that they distribute condoms to get the number of abortions up. That's a pretty heavy charge. Do you have any proof of this? And yes, teens need to understand that the only 100% safe approach is no sex, but we need to address the issue of them having sex and teach them what they need to know. They will have sex. So they need to be prepared to make responsible decisions.

I read it in a magazine quite a few years ago now, butI'll see if I can find it online.

[edit]If anyone is surprised by my claim, you might want to read more about Planned Parenthood. Its founder was Margaret Sanger, who established the organization partly to eradiacte the 'negro race.' Here's a small sampling of quotes from her.

"The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."

"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population?"

"Eugenic sterilization is an urgent need ... We must prevent multiplication of this bad stock."

"Eugenics is ? the most adequate and thorough avenue to the solution of racial, political and social problems.

"Birth control itself, often denounced as a violation of natural law, is nothing more or less than the facilitation of the process of weeding out the unfit, of preventing the birth of defectives or of those who will become defectives."

"The unbalance between the birth rate of the 'unfit' and the 'fit,' [is] the greatest present menace to civilization? the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective."

"The campaign for birth control is not merely of eugenic value, but is practically identical with the final aims of eugenics."

"Our failure to segregate morons who are increasing and multiplying? a dead weight of human waste? an ever-increasing, unceasingly spawning class of human beings who never should have been born at all."

"The undeniably feeble-minded should, indeed, not only be discouraged but prevented from propagating their kind."

"The procreation of [the diseased, the feeble-minded and paupers] should be stopped."

"The marriage bed is the most degenerative influence in the social order..."

"[Our objective is] unlimited sexual gratification without the burden of unwanted children..."

"[Mandatory] sterilization for [the insane and feeble-minded] is the answer."

"Give dysgenic groups [people with 'bad genes'] in our population their choice of segregation or [compulsory] sterilization."

Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, proposed the American Baby Code that states, "No woman shall have the legal right to bear a child? without a permit for parenthood".

[/quote]

 

[datalink7]

I am pro-life, but I have always said that abortion should be alright in the case that the mothers life is in danger. Sure, you are still killing the baby but at that point it is one life or the other, and the life that has been around longer takes precedence in my mind.

 

[0roo0roo]

thats not a compromise, thats the prolife-lite position.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: NJDevil
Ok, so if you teach high school kids about safe sex (which you should), and a condom breaks, tough luck?

With products like regular birth control pills for the girl as well as morning after pills, I fail to see a reason beyond lazyness that could lead to pregnancy. I would be willing to bet that girls who were simply very unlucky when using adequate birth control measures are a very small percentage of abortion customers. Given the huge success rate of most single solution products, not to mention using more than one method, I don't see how all these girls are becoming pregnant if they didn't intend to be. It just doesn't make sense.

Of course what WOULD make sense is people who just figured they would luck out and not have a problem. That seems far more likely, and in that case I have a hard time feeling sympathetic. Actions have consequences, avoiding them is a big problem in our society.

Edit: And to ward off any rabbid attack pro-choicers calling me "anti-choice", I think I should say I am pro-choice...I just don't agree with that "choice" most people make, and I'll tell ya why given the opportunity.

 

[CycloWizard]

The morning after pill is an abortifacient drug - it pervents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus, rather than actually preventing fertilization.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

well tss, sounds preferable to me.

but those that demand that we protect a woman?s right to suck the brains out of her child *because the head has yet to escape her* will never be willing to accept that infanticide is a bad thing.

why don't they argue that sex is a choice? By not having sex, you can prevent the entire problem of ending a human life,

because the basic ideological difference that makes liberals pro-abortion is that they demand that we do our best to remove all personal responsibility from society, even if the consequence of that personal responsibility would be that of being forced not to ?choose? between killing your child or letting her live.

do you know how many couples have to go out of the US to adopt? the demand for children is very high, and the life of a child in given up for adoption is infinitely better than that of a child murdered by a 'doctor'.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The morning after pill is an abortifacient drug - it pervents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus, rather than actually preventing fertilization.

Well I'm no biology major, I confess I don't have a clue how most of that stuff works...well, beyond condoms...those are fairly obvious

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
well tss, sounds preferable to me.

but those that demand that we protect a woman?s right to suck the brains out of her child *because the head has yet to escape her* will never be willing to accept that infanticide is a bad thing.

why don't they argue that sex is a choice? By not having sex, you can prevent the entire problem of ending a human life,

because the basic ideological difference that makes liberals pro-abortion is that they demand that we do our best to remove all personal responsibility from society, even if the consequence of that personal responsibility would be that of being forced not to ?choose? between killing your child or letting her live.

do you know how many couples have to go out of the US to adopt? the demand for children is very high, and the life of a child in given up for adoption is infinitely better than that of a child murdered by a 'doctor'.

The demand for adoption is extremely high. However, it's not convenient for someone to bear a child, nor deal with the attached stigma. It's all about convenience, which is a cop-out of the responsibility that is inherent with sexual activity.

 

[Train]

I dont understand why those teen girls that have a baby in thier basement or in a hotel room, then put the baby in a garbage bag and throw it in the nearest dumpster get made out to be such horrible people, taken away to jail, all over the news, the papers, people are all horrified that something like this happend in their town, etc. But if she killed the baby just a few days earlier, no one would have cared.

And how come when a pregnant woman gets murdered/killed, the defendant gets charged with two counts of murder/manslaughter?

 

[OffTopic1]

Originally posted by: tss4
I have a question for both sides of this issue. It seems to me that the main sticking point for Pro Life, obviously, is that they consider abortion murder. For Pro-Choicers its that its irresponsible to bring unwanted children in to the world (and they don't consider it murder at that point). How about a compromise. Abortion would be illegal except in cases of medical emergency (and possibly rape) BUT to address the concerns of pro-choice people there would be a strong education program to yound adults and teens to use birth control including the free distribution of BC pills and condoms. If you can get most people using BC pills AND condoms, you would reduce the amount of unwanted children to virtually zero and since abortion would only be used in cases to save the mother, abortion would be effectively zero. For this to work conservatives would have to actively push birth control or we'd be stuck with many unwanted pregnancies. (They can still say that the only way for NO pregnancies is abstinance, but they'd still have to promote birth control). Seems like a compromise that could work. what do you say?

It is a good start, but it going to be hard to tell everyone to take birth control (specially with the present mind set of church &amp; politic leaders).

Funny thing is that many Pro-Life people support the death sentence even those the system is flawed.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
well tss, sounds preferable to me.

but those that demand that we protect a woman?s right to suck the brains out of her child *because the head has yet to escape her* will never be willing to accept that infanticide is a bad thing.

why don't they argue that sex is a choice? By not having sex, you can prevent the entire problem of ending a human life,

because the basic ideological difference that makes liberals pro-abortion is that they demand that we do our best to remove all personal responsibility from society, even if the consequence of that personal responsibility would be that of being forced not to ?choose? between killing your child or letting her live.

do you know how many couples have to go out of the US to adopt? the demand for children is very high, and the life of a child in given up for adoption is infinitely better than that of a child murdered by a 'doctor'.

The demand for adoption is extremely high. However, it's not convenient for someone to bear a child, nor deal with the attached stigma. It's all about convenience, which is a cop-out of the responsibility that is inherent with sexual activity.

I could almost support your position but then when the act of actually teaching children responsibility crops up, the conservative line is to not teach the proper use of birth control. People have been having sex for a long time out of wed lock and having children. This isn't new. But we could teach people how to prevent it. Then we might not even have to discuss a compromise on abortion.

Interestingly enough, I know several women that have had abortions. They were all from very religous families that preached only abstinence. I'm not implying that means that this doesn't happen to more liberal families, but it does mean that teaching abstinence only isn't the answer.

 

[KarenMarie]

was gonna say... funny thing is that most pro choice people are anti-death penalty.

pro-life.. dont kill babies, but kill adults in a flawed system, with a circus atmosphere.
pro-choice... ok to kill innocent babies but not guilty adults.

I have read a lot about birth control, but nothing about abstenience. The quarter between the knees is the best form of birth control available. But seriously. I dont think that anyone in their right mind... in their right mind.... would like to see a unilateral ban on all abortions. However, using abortions as a form of birth control, and abortions up until the the day of labor with no questions asked... it is my opinion that these two issues need to be addressed.