Composite decking

[Greenman]

I'm not a fan of sistered deck framing, one more place for water to collect and rot to start. When it's necessary, cover the top with a membrane to prevent water from getting into the joint.

Screws are fine to sister the two boards together, but use enough of them. GRK screws are structural and PT rated, I don't know if spax are.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Finally stripped the majority of the deck boards. So far only a couple of small soft spots and quick checks appear pretty level. I haven’t gotten to the ledger board yet.
Two questions,
First: one joist is cracked and split I am sort of concerned about this because it is in the middle crack is about two feet long, can I add a four foot sister board to brace it?
Second: would it be a good idea to add some sister boards to where out door to the house is? This is our primary entrance, basically would it be a good idea instead of 16” on center which is the max trex can do reduce it to 13” on center by the heavily used portion by the door?

I have 8’ of 2x10 and some 2x4 left over from last year all ground rated stuff. I’m not against getting robbed for another 8’ 2x10.

Edit: would it be cool to attach them with good quality construction screws (grk or spax) instead of a bolt? No permit required so I am not concerned with inspection.

I am all about replacing bad joist if you have the option to remove them. I replaced all but 2 on the floating dock. There we're a few bad spots on one of them that I kept....I used a chisel to clean out the rot and filled it with filler and construction adhesive.

It's really a matter of knowing you're starting with good wood. Sistering boards is what you do when you don't have the option to remove the top decking....now is the time to spend a little more money and effort to do it right while you're messing with it. It'll probably be fine if you do sister a board, but rot does tend to grow once it starts. The wood holds moisture, it will continue to spread.... Even into good boards. Just my opinion.

If you think the boards near your door are weak, you could add more support, but structurally, the live load capability of those boards on 16-in centers is going to be adequate for anybody standing there as long as they aren't spanning more than what the joists are specified for. I use 2x8s normally, but don't span them more than 8 feet without a post. There are dimensional charts to determine weight and span lengths for lumber you can reference.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I am all about replacing bad joist if you have the option to remove them. I replaced all but 2 on the floating dock. There we're a few bad spots on one of them that I kept....I used a chisel to clean out the rot and filled it with filler and construction adhesive.

It's really a matter of knowing you're starting with good wood. Sistering boards is what you do when you don't have the option to remove the top decking....now is the time to spend a little more money and effort to do it right while you're messing with it. It'll probably be fine if you do sister a board, but rot does tend to grow once it starts. The wood holds moisture, it will continue to spread.... Even into good boards. Just my opinion.

If you think the boards near your door are weak, you could add more support, but structurally, the live load capability of those boards on 16-in centers is going to be adequate for anybody standing there as long as they aren't spanning more than what the joists are specified for. I use 2x8s normally, but don't span them more than 8 feet without a post. There are dimensional charts to determine weight and span lengths for lumber you can reference.

Not weak, I frequently have cases of analysis paralysis.

 

[Greenman]

I am all about replacing bad joist if you have the option to remove them. I replaced all but 2 on the floating dock. There we're a few bad spots on one of them that I kept....I used a chisel to clean out the rot and filled it with filler and construction adhesive.

It's really a matter of knowing you're starting with good wood. Sistering boards is what you do when you don't have the option to remove the top decking....now is the time to spend a little more money and effort to do it right while you're messing with it. It'll probably be fine if you do sister a board, but rot does tend to grow once it starts. The wood holds moisture, it will continue to spread.... Even into good boards. Just my opinion.

If you think the boards near your door are weak, you could add more support, but structurally, the live load capability of those boards on 16-in centers is going to be adequate for anybody standing there as long as they aren't spanning more than what the joists are specified for. I use 2x8s normally, but don't span them more than 8 feet without a post. There are dimensional charts to determine weight and span lengths for lumber you can reference.

The equation changes a bit for me, as it's usually code and budget driven. Sometimes I have to leave behind material that I'd rather replace. I expect that to change dramatically now that material costs have reached "absurd" and are heading into "if you have to ask you can't afford it" territory.

 

[Scarpozzi]

The equation changes a bit for me, as it's usually code and budget driven. Sometimes I have to leave behind material that I'd rather replace. I expect that to change dramatically now that material costs have reached "absurd" and are heading into "if you have to ask you can't afford it" territory.

My recent issue was that when I removed my decking boards, the rot and cracks on the top of the joists were bad enough that I didn't expect the boards to last another 8 years (their age). I was concerned that even putting th composite boards down would result in loose fasteners or voids under the boards within a few years. It was only about $400 in lumber to do those extra repairs.

I have another dock and many more boards and decks that I'm going to leave out there....I pick and choose my battles too. I'm probably going to hold off on the building projects I want to do until Fall or later to see if prices get better.

 

[Greenman]

My recent issue was that when I removed my decking boards, the rot and cracks on the top of the joists were bad enough that I didn't expect the boards to last another 8 years (their age). I was concerned that even putting th composite boards down would result in loose fasteners or voids under the boards within a few years. It was only about $400 in lumber to do those extra repairs.

I have another dock and many more boards and decks that I'm going to leave out there....I pick and choose my battles too. I'm probably going to hold off on the building projects I want to do until Fall or later to see if prices get better.

Industry scuttlebutt is that it's going to be next year before we see any relief in material prices.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Industry scuttlebutt is that it's going to be next year before we see any relief in material prices.

They said that last year... I'm not surprised if it takes longer. Luckily, I'm in no rush on the total house renovation I'm going to eventually do on one of my cabins. It makes a decent enough storage unit for now anyways.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Aww Fuuuuucccc......

Broken joist hangers. Two of the three bad ones broke while I was prying and stepping.
Fortunately the others aren’t that corroded.
How does one remove the nails from these things to replace it?

The lumber is in okay shape, this board is the one with the long crack that I was thinking of sister boarding.
Would adding two or three more joists make sense? Adds about $100 to the job which I can take.



This one failed shorty after the picture

 

[Scarpozzi]

How does one remove the nails from these things to replace it?

I prefer a Stanley Wonderbar for stuff like that. It's thinner than a prybar so you can sometimes get it in there to pop those out. It can be a pain to remove them, but working the wonder bar under can sometimes get you leverage...then you hammer the hanger back flush to expose the heads of the nails to pull out.

While you're at Lowes or HD getting that wonder bar, buy some more Simpson's Joist hangers/Brackets and 1" galvanized joist hanger nails. Make sure you have the right nails unless you can afford to have them shoot out the other side (which sometimes is a good thing).

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I prefer a Stanley Wonderbar for stuff like that. It's thinner than a prybar so you can sometimes get it in there to pop those out. It can be a pain to remove them, but working the wonder bar under can sometimes get you leverage...then you hammer the hanger back flush to expose the heads of the nails to pull out.

While you're at Lowes or HD getting that wonder bar, buy some more Simpson's Joist hangers/Brackets and 1" galvanized joist hanger nails. Make sure you have the right nails unless you can afford to have them shoot out the other side (which sometimes is a good thing).

yeah I am a big believer in Simpson Strong stuff after last years stair rebuild.
I have someone stopping by with a nail pry bar thing.
If Lowe’s has them I’ll likely do the strong tie nut things, I remember they could be substituted for nails. Not sure if it is okay by code but I am not selling anytime soon and I do not need a permit for this job.
Sort of sucks and really weird the joist hangers near the door our main entrance are completely compromised and the others look a little corroded but just a bit.


Pulling these out is going to suck....

 

[Scarpozzi]

yeah I am a big believer in Simpson Strong stuff after last years stair rebuild.
I have someone stopping by with a nail pry bar thing.
If Lowe’s has them I’ll likely do the strong tie nut things, I remember they could be substituted for nails. Not sure if it is okay by code but I am not selling anytime soon and I do not need a permit for this job.
Sort of sucks and really weird the joist hangers near the door our main entrance are completely compromised and the others look a little corroded but just a bit.


Pulling these out is going to suck....

Maybe the ones closest to the house don't dry out as much due to less sun exposure?

Yeah...I didn't like removing the ones I've removed...especailly if someone drove a nail in every slot. If you want to do it the contractor way, you can get a 6" reciprocating saw blade (hack saw or demo) and just saw all the nails off....drive whatever's left in. I recommend Milwaukee if you don't have a reciprocating saw. I think mine was $99 at Home Depot after my $69 Ryobi one died after one day on the job....(but boy did I use that thing hard) I convinced the manager to give me a refund for the dead tool instead of sending it off for repairs.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Maybe the ones closest to the house don't dry out as much due to less sun exposure?

Yeah...I didn't like removing the ones I've removed...especailly if someone drove a nail in every slot. If you want to do it the contractor way, you can get a 6" reciprocating saw blade (hack saw or demo) and just saw all the nails off....drive whatever's left in. I recommend Milwaukee if you don't have a reciprocating saw. I think mine was $99 at Home Depot after my $69 Ryobi one died after one day on the job....(but boy did I use that thing hard) I convinced the manager to give me a refund for the dead tool instead of sending it off for repairs.

update appears the failed ones were Simpson strong tie, looks awfully similar to this
**I assume the cheap version was used**

Simpson Strong-Tie LUS ZMAX Galvanized Face-Mount Joist Hanger for 2x10 Nominal Lumber LUS210Z - The Home Depot

Joist hangers are designed to provide support underneath the joist, rafter or beam to provide a strong a connection. Simpson Strong-Tie offers a diverse line of hangers to handle almost any application

www.homedepot.com

I need to replace four or five of these should I go with this gold coated stuff instead?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/USP-2-in-x-10-in-18-Gauge-Gold-Coat-Face-Mount-Joist-Hanger/3374704

Irritating Lowe’s doesn’t list the g value corrosion resistance thing.

 

[bbhaag]

Aww Fuuuuucccc......

Broken joist hangers. Two of the three bad ones broke while I was prying and stepping.
Fortunately the others aren’t that corroded.
How does one remove the nails from these things to replace it?

The lumber is in okay shape, this board is the one with the long crack that I was thinking of sister boarding.
Would adding two or three more joists make sense? Adds about $100 to the job which I can take.

View attachment 44687

This one failed shorty after the picture
View attachment 44688

View attachment 44689

Damn man just one problem after another on this project huh? I don't know a thing about building a deck but just trying to throw some support your way.

Instead of sistering the boards why not just replace them along with replacing the failing hangers?

 

[Scarpozzi]

update appears the failed ones were Simpson strong tie, looks awfully similar to this
**I assume the cheap version was used**

Simpson Strong-Tie LUS ZMAX Galvanized Face-Mount Joist Hanger for 2x10 Nominal Lumber LUS210Z - The Home Depot

Joist hangers are designed to provide support underneath the joist, rafter or beam to provide a strong a connection. Simpson Strong-Tie offers a diverse line of hangers to handle almost any application

www.homedepot.com

I need to replace four or five of these should I go with this gold coated stuff instead?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/USP-2-in-x-10-in-18-Gauge-Gold-Coat-Face-Mount-Joist-Hanger/3374704

Irritating Lowe’s doesn’t list the g value corrosion resistance thing.

I don't know... Metal takes longer than wood to deteriorate typically. I would probably put the regular ones in unless the deck was really high up and supporting lots of weight/people. Otherwise live load shouldn't dictate more than the regular ones.

I agree with bbhaag. Inspect the wood and determine if it shows signs of rot while you're messing with it. Consider the reciprocating saw I mentioned if you have a lot of hangers to remove.

 

[Greenman]

update appears the failed ones were Simpson strong tie, looks awfully similar to this
**I assume the cheap version was used**

Simpson Strong-Tie LUS ZMAX Galvanized Face-Mount Joist Hanger for 2x10 Nominal Lumber LUS210Z - The Home Depot

Joist hangers are designed to provide support underneath the joist, rafter or beam to provide a strong a connection. Simpson Strong-Tie offers a diverse line of hangers to handle almost any application

www.homedepot.com

I need to replace four or five of these should I go with this gold coated stuff instead?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/USP-2-in-x-10-in-18-Gauge-Gold-Coat-Face-Mount-Joist-Hanger/3374704

Irritating Lowe’s doesn’t list the g value corrosion resistance thing.

Almost certainly the hangers used on your deck were standard Simpson joist hangers. Replace all of them with Simpson Z Max hangers. The Strong drive screws are fine for anchoring the hangers.
This is the nail bar you want.

Amazon.com: Estwing Nail Puller - 12" Double-Ended Pry Bar with Straight & Wedge Claw End - DEP12: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Estwing Nail Puller - 12" Double-Ended Pry Bar with Straight & Wedge Claw End - DEP12: Home Improvement

www.amazon.com

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Update:
Pulling those nails was a major pain in the ass
No rot on ledger, some rot under my vinyl siding seems like it is some sort of filler board, pulled out easily.
There is a large gap to water proof, I am going to do it with a layer of deck/joist tape and a funky cut aluminum flashing I found at Home Depot.
Sort of concerned about this odd gap but it feels fine in there.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Update:
Yesterday I had a strong guess. My deck was 8’ x 10’ ish. I suspect the previous owner added six more feet to it for what I assume was a grill. Brazilian guy and I know grills are important. Part of the wood is a lot lighter color, has a concrete footing not on the side any longer but not in the middle, weird off set placement to add and most importantly on joist is painted white which is odd. I bet that is where the original deck ended and this explains why some hangers were in far worse shape than the others.
Brother in law stopped by and he is excellent at this stuff. We got the old joist hangers off, replaced with zmax Simpson (not all but the two that failed and two others that were in bad shape).
Expanded deck also explains why so many joists have nails hammered into them.
Regardless the wood was good so I rolled with it.
Added water proof tape, got about 2 inches of flashing under the vinyl siding and sealed that with more taping, I have two layers of water resistance now.
First two trex boards are in but we screwed up a measure and they are bowed. Going to remove them tomorrow and straighten them.
I’ll get a picture of my ridiculous over build on my flashing.
Getting the siding off enough to allow 2 inches of flashing to get under it was a major pain but it is done and I like how it came out.



Left over cut from my excessive flashing

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I have most of a gallon of copper green wood preserve left, should I treat the ledger board or is that completely unnecessary?

 

[Scarpozzi]

I have most of a gallon of copper green wood preserve left, should I treat the ledger board or is that completely unnecessary?

I always hear about ledgers rotting a lot if they don't ever dry out. I would worry most about it if there are lots of wet leaves or moss around. If you have good gutters, full sun, and siding is flashed properly, you may not need to worry.... it's a judgement call.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I always hear about ledgers rotting a lot if they don't ever dry out. I would worry most about it if there are lots of wet leaves or moss around. If you have good gutters, full sun, and siding is flashed properly, you may not need to worry.... it's a judgement call.

Maybe I’ll skip it, the copper green I put around the posts and older joist still hasn’t dried. I want to tape these areas off.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Maybe I’ll skip it, the copper green I put around the posts and older joist still hasn’t dried. I want to tape these areas off.

Flashing and any kind of membrane is the way to go if you're able to direct the water away.I've got a bunch of that kind of work to do as soon as my concrete guys are gone. I've got to flash and caulk above the concrete and under the siding to keep the rain from getting stuck between the concrete, flashing, and rim joist. that's where you can get into some real trouble since water likes to wick into dry wood that may not be treated and big drops on concrete like to splash up. I'm looking forward to being done with the project. (should just be an hour of work or less for the 15 linear feet).

 

[Greenman]

I have most of a gallon of copper green wood preserve left, should I treat the ledger board or is that completely unnecessary?

Ledgers generally rot from the back side due to moisture trapped between the ledger and the house. New decks always have a space between the ledger and the house. There are several products on the market that create that space while maintaining structural integrity. The one I most often use is called "off the wall". Yes, that's a real product.

Anything you can do to shed water away from that seam is worth doing. A Z flashing is the most common.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Ledgers generally rot from the back side due to moisture trapped between the ledger and the house. New decks always have a space between the ledger and the house. There are several products on the market that create that space while maintaining structural integrity. The one I most often use is called "off the wall". Yes, that's a real product.

Anything you can do to shed water away from that seam is worth doing. A Z flashing is the most common.

Cool & thanks. I didn’t treat the ledger board(s) they were in good shape. Not dried out and not wet or soft.
My flashing was in two parts. The assumed newer part was done very well but it was the flashing was the thin rolled aluminum kind and it was ripped in a few small parts. It had some “be dry”(?) brand tape on it. The tape was stuck on well and went under the siding. Older part was just aluminum flashing that decayed.
We removed the old flashing, applied some butrly (rubber tape stuff) and some tyvek tape. Went under the siding as much as possible then added an L shaped heavy gauge aluminum flashing. Goes up about two inches under the siding and out over the ledger maybe 1/4 inch. I tapped it with a hammer to add low points for drainage away from the joists.
I think I am well sealed on this end.

I am still waiting for the copper green to dry around the posts. Stuff seems great but the smell and long dry time is inconvenient.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

All but done, I need to get my 16’ damaged board replace so what is show are just place holders.
I have two 8’ three sides finished trex boards to end the run so you won’t see the groove.
Now I have a decision to make, my measure was off by an inch, wish I was smart enough to space the other boards a bit wider but I wasn’t.
How should I end this?
I am thinking a 1x1 pvc trim board like this:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/EverTrue-5-8-in-x-8-ft-PVC-Stop-Actual-0-625-in-x-8-ft/1000443661?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-mlw-_-google-_-lia-_-122-_-exteriortrim-_-1000443661-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2NyFBhDoARIsAMtHtZ4hPdVeMHYexOOMMfCugd7ayuHhIvNsw0gGdwMz8Htg2ZK5fEk2VrwaAsdKEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

This board is about the right height and will be “mostly” level it is not an area where anybody would be standing.

Put it right in the frame at the end


Or should I put the pvc trim piece between the last two boards so I end with trex finished edge? This would put the pvc trim board under the railing and again nobody would step there.

Mostly finished picture:



Top of the railing replacement will be a fall or next spring project.
In the meanwhile I’ll clean & paint what wood is left.

Edit: Project completed. Going to share some stuff I learned.

**Trex is durable but flexible**
1st deck joists need to be super level. Mine are mostly level and some waves can be perceived
2nd since trex is flexible there is a small amount of “bounce” in some spots. Barely perceivable. I am 16” on center. If building a new deck 12” on center is probably a better idea
3rd joist tape is super simple to cut and use, if you are going to water proof or preserve I recommend doing that weeks in advance. Butranyl tape does not like oil
4th trex foggy wharf is hotter than wood but not much. I have had some 90 degree sunny days and I could walk on it barefoot however I would not want to stay in one spot barefoot.
Our dog has no noticeable problem with the extra heat and his feet.
5th I had some static the first few days but it disappeared. Hasn’t come back. Been mostly complete for about 30 days
6th I started at the house because I thought that would be easier, it is not. Start at the end opposite of the house and rip the last board if needed.
7th if using hidden fasteners it is super easy but not faster. Leave the fasteners a little loose measure to make sure everything is straight, lay another board, mostly tighten, then repeat. Easier to fix mistakes this way. I’d tighten up the boards when complete. Laying three or four boards then going back to tighten seemed to work best.
8th the Diablo trex circular saw blade probably isn’t needed. I bought one and ended up returned it. The first rough cut came out perfect with my no name lightly used saw blade. The diablo blade was really expensive for one job.
No name blade cut just as well on the last cut. I do recommend ensuring whatever blade is used is sharp.