Components for new rig ... your opinion

[betasub]

Overclocking SandyBridge 'K' is by multiplier, and does not require any changes to memory. No need to mess with timings.

Only spend extra for "overclocking memory" if you specfically have a desire to overclock the SB/P67 memory subsystem.

 

[b4u]

Which thermal paste is best to apply? Artic brand? Which of their products?

Does i5 boxed come with thermal for the stock cooler?

 

[mnewsham]

Which thermal paste is best to apply? Artic brand? Which of their products?

Does i5 boxed come with thermal for the stock cooler?

If you buy an After market HSF it should come with some TIM, intel stock cooler comes with a thermal pad not that effective tho.

 

[mfenn]

I'm more inclined for an Asus mobo. About the processor, you mean i5 2500 without a "K"? They seem to be very much locked ... I was choosing a "K" with a P67 to be rest assured I could overclock in the future ... since overclock these days seem to be like a breeze 🙂

Yes, sorry, I meant the i5 2500K.

About memory, I have one question: I believe the stock frequency of a SB is 1333. If I buy a 1600 CL7 ECO 1.35v, I'll have more room for overclock, ie, to mess with memory timings and the like. If I buy CL9 1.5v but also 1600, I have less room for messing with settings, but since it's 1600, maybe I don't need to worry about it, correct? Unless I do extreme overclock that requires more than 1600 on the memory, in which case I would have to mess with them, correct? So I could just do a good overclock on CPU side, and don't worry that much with memory since it could take the extra bandwith, correct?

This no longer applies to Sandy Bridge. Overclocking is done with the multiplier alone, no need to change the memory at all.

 

[mfenn]

Oh, about memory,

GSKILL KIT 4GB DDR3 1333MHZ NQ (CL9)
4GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-10666 1333MHz NQ Series (9-9-9-24) Dual Channel kit

GSKILL KIT 4GB DDR3 1600MHZ ECO (CL7)
4GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 ECO Series (7-8-7-24, 1.35V) Dual Channel kit

Both are selling for basically the same price, 76€ (75.40€ vs 76.10€) ... :O

Given those two choices, of course you should go with the faster, lower voltage memory since it is practically the same price.

HOWEVER, what you really need to do is beat your shopkeeper over the head for trying to rip you off on the DDR3 1333. :awe:

 

[b4u]

Given those two choices, of course you should go with the faster, lower voltage memory since it is practically the same price.

HOWEVER, what you really need to do is beat your shopkeeper over the head for trying to rip you off on the DDR3 1333. :awe:

Never mind that ... he's bigger than me ... I could try to be the first to hit, if I can take it by surprise, though ... 😀

I just saw some info about the new RipjawsX series from G.Skill. The brand states that they are best suited for SB systems ... 😛

I was hopping to see the prices I can get them, since they may be arriving at the local store.

Source: http://www.gskill.com/news.php?index=401
The new RipjawsX series consists of a complete range of memory solution, from DDR3 1,333MHz, 1,600MHz, 1,866MHz, 2,133MHz, 2,200MHz to 2,300MHz. Combined with the Intel’s highly anticipated Sandy Bridge platform, G.Skill RipjawsX series memory kits deliver more bandwidth and performance than ever. The following screen shows ultimate 25K MB/s bandwidth at extreme memory speed of 2300MHz CL7.

The brand states that the kits are tested in a SB environment, which is cool, if they really do enough tests to qualify them (we can assume so), and they also state that they deliver more bandwidth?!?!?! They must be saying that they can be overclocked even further, and so achive more bandwidth, correct?

Seems like a bunch of marketing ... but the fact that they test them in SB environment looks good.

Anyway, I've also checked the Asus P8P67 Pro official memory QVL, and I was really surprised to officially finding the 2 kit's I was looking at:

G.SKILL F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL 4GB(2 x 2GB)
SS
Voltage: 1.6
for 52€
They don't say which timmings, and say 1.6v ... but officially this kit is 9-9-9-24-2N and 1.5v so Asus used 1.6v during test? Or should be a typo? dunno

G.SKILL
F3-12800CL7D-4GBECO(XMP) 4GB(2 x 2GB)
DS
Timming: 7-8-7-24
for 76€
Officially a 1.35v, Asus stated nothing about the voltage used ... :S


What does SS/DS mean? Single slot/Dual slot? They both should be 2 slot DDR3 kits ...

Looking into the possibility of going 8Gb, I was tempting for:

GSKILL KIT 8GB DDR3 1600MHZ RIPJAW (CL9)
F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
MEMORY SPEED 1600MHz (DDR3-1600)
CAS LATENCY CL9
MEMORY TIMINGS 9-9-9-24-2N
VOLTAGE 1.5V
for 110€

or wait a couple of days to see what price (should be similar) for the:

G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB)
240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
F3-12800CL9D-8GBXL
CL9, 9-9-9-24, 1.5v
for ???€ (I assume it should cost say 120€, no more than that)


Reason for thinking 8Gb:

My current PC has 1Gb, by the time it was more than enough, the price for 2Gb was a bit more than double, and I could easily switch latter. Well, latter has come and gone, and I didn't update ... and 2Gb really makes a diference.

Since 4Gb vs 8Gb is basically double the price, so mathematically it's not a steal, if I go 8Gb I would probably take some benefict under Adobe Lightroom, amateuring Photoshop, and Primiere Pro ... and in the future, well I don't see the need for more than 8Gb on i5 2500K system, without having to think about CPu update as well ...

A 1Gb vs 2Gb system, it's 1Gb more, and can be easily saturated ... as we all seen in the past. Now 4Gb vs 8Gb it's a full 4Gb extra ... it WILL saturate, but maybe by that time the CPU/GPU and even SB as a hole will be more saturated, and the system will struggle to run the software that would clearly benefit from more than 8Gb.


So what about this testament? Opinions? 😀

Yes, sorry, I meant the i5 2500K.



This no longer applies to Sandy Bridge. Overclocking is done with the multiplier alone, no need to change the memory at all.

Uhm ... can you give a little more detail about this? I'm from the time where an overclocker would bump FSB, CPU, RAM, and pray for the best ...

 

[mfenn]

Never mind that ... he's bigger than me ... I could try to be the first to hit, if I can take it by surprise, though ... 😀

Make sure that you approach him from his blind side! 😀

I just saw some info about the new RipjawsX series from G.Skill. The brand states that they are best suited for SB systems ... 😛

Seems like a bunch of marketing ... but the fact that they test them in SB environment looks good.

It's just marketing BS, don't worry about it, the older model will work fine.

Anyway, I've also checked the Asus P8P67 Pro official memory QVL, and I was really surprised to officially finding the 2 kit's I was looking at:

G.SKILL F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL 4GB(2 x 2GB)
SS
Voltage: 1.6
for 52€
They don't say which timmings, and say 1.6v ... but officially this kit is 9-9-9-24-2N and 1.5v so Asus used 1.6v during test? Or should be a typo? dunno

G.SKILL
F3-12800CL7D-4GBECO(XMP) 4GB(2 x 2GB)
DS
Timming: 7-8-7-24
for 76€
Officially a 1.35v, Asus stated nothing about the voltage used ... :S

Could be a typo. Luckily the memory controller is on the CPU, so the motherboard actually plays very little role in compatibility.

What does SS/DS mean? Single slot/Dual slot? They both should be 2 slot DDR3 kits ...

Single-sided versus double-sided. Basically, double-sided DIMMs have more chips and is thus harder for the memory controller to drive. They are however cheaper because the lower-density chips cost less. This really only starts to matter in server configs with 6+ DIMMs per CPU though.

Looking into the possibility of going 8Gb, I was tempting for:

Memory is so easy to upgrade, so I would say with 4GB unless you know for a fact that you will need 8GB

Uhm ... can you give a little more detail about this? I'm from the time where an overclocker would bump FSB, CPU, RAM, and pray for the best ...

Basically, on Sandy Bridge, the base clock is locked to 100MHz. You can bump it up a MHz or 2, but this will cause your PCIe devices to start to go haywire. To still allow for overclocking, Intel created the K series of CPUs with unlocked multipliers. To overclock Sandy Bridge, you really only need to worry about the multiplier and voltages. The RAM clock is completely asynchronous, so it no longer plays a role in overclocking the CPU itself.

 

[b4u]

It's just marketing BS, don't worry about it, the older model will work fine.

I believe so. Basically 1155 is just a reviewed 1156 for SB architecture.

Could be a typo. Luckily the memory controller is on the CPU, so the motherboard actually plays very little role in compatibility.

Single-sided versus double-sided. Basically, double-sided DIMMs have more chips and is thus harder for the memory controller to drive. They are however cheaper because the lower-density chips cost less. This really only starts to matter in server configs with 6+ DIMMs per CPU though.

Thanks for the explanation. It seems all kit's I'm looking into are all qualified by Asus ... it's very good, at least is gives some confort.

The new RipjawsX are new, probably have some more stuff like ... dunno what :\, maybe I'll check with G.Skill's nice support team. They are at least certified manually (eheh) by G.Skill quality team. uhm ...

Memory is so easy to upgrade, so I would say with 4GB unless you know for a fact that you will need 8GB

For games I want, they all require/want 2Gb, no one goes further than that or passes 3Gb, never mind passing the 4Gb barrier.

I'm really thinking about Adobe products and the like ... Premiere Pro requires minimum 2Gb, recommends 4Gb or more ... even if I don't pull it to extreme, since I'm no professional video editor, I believe I'll possible win for having that extra room for improvement, as I can have some other background software running, or have sufficient room for Premiere to breathe at will. My current system takes about 5-6 hours to encode a DVD video, this new system I hope it will take less than an hour, having 8Gb may (I hope and believe) help reduce the time.

Photoshop required 1Gb ram, next version may go 2Gb, I can assume that, and Lightroom 3 asks for 2Gb. I know from a person that uses Lightroom, that he has 4Gb ram and at some times it seems to be insufficient, but he is more professional than me, and works with some big raw picture formats, which requires much more processing than my jpeg pictures, even though I have them with big resolutions.

In the future, having a 4Gb 2x2Gb kit would be easy to upgrade, just add another kit into the case, but I don't know if it can become be more likelly to have some compatibility/stability issues, and I probably would not be able to find the same model around.

Also from personal knowledge of me, myself and I, I would probably just stay with 4Gb until next major computer upgrade. My current system has 1Gb, and at the time, going 2Gb would cost more than twice the price, so I left it behind, with the hope that one day they would drop the price, and I could throw another pair in there. Never happened. I still have 1Gb which it insufficient, but there was a time barrier that set my mind to a state of "not worth spending money on this system".

Seeing that 8Gb costs the double of 4Gb, which as I say, it's mathematically acceptable and accurate 🙂, if I go 8Gb now, I'll be future proof without worries.

By the time I need more than 8Gb, I'll probably need a bigger system upgrade as well, something like i5 4xxxK, with 32Gb DDR5 ... 😎:thumbsup:

Basically, on Sandy Bridge, the base clock is locked to 100MHz. You can bump it up a MHz or 2, but this will cause your PCIe devices to start to go haywire. To still allow for overclocking, Intel created the K series of CPUs with unlocked multipliers. To overclock Sandy Bridge, you really only need to worry about the multiplier and voltages. The RAM clock is completely asynchronous, so it no longer plays a role in overclocking the CPU itself.

What about the MHz on the RAM? How do they enter the equation?

Assuming the minimum requirement is 1333MHz (is this correct?) how much bandwidth does it take? Even being asynchronous, it is better to have at least enough bandwidth to swallow CPU data coming to RAM, correct?

A 1600MHz will therefore assure that the memory controller in the CPU can dispatch more data, as the RAM is more capable, is this correct?

The memory on the mobo just processes at it's capabilities whatever CPU settings are defined? So I extreme overclock a CPU, than check that a 1600 kit is being the bottleneck, and then just replace for some 2400MHz with fans, turn it on and that's it? This easy on the memory side? 😎

 

[fffblackmage]

For games I want, they all require/want 2Gb, no one goes further than that or passes 3Gb, never mind passing the 4Gb barrier.

I'm really thinking about Adobe products and the like ...

If the most you're doing is gaming, then 4GB is enough.

For Adobe products, 8GB will likely be beneficial.

What about the MHz on the RAM? How do they enter the equation?
...

Not sure what you're asking, but DDR3-1333 in dual channel mode provides a lot of bandwidth. Despite the significant increase in bandwidth provided by DDR3-1600 in dual channel mode, it doesn't bring a proportional increase in overall performance.

 

[b4u]

If the most you're doing is gaming, then 4GB is enough.

For Adobe products, 8GB will likely be beneficial.

I'll be gaming, but I'll also work with photos and video. Nothing professional, but I'll organize my 30000 pictures with lightroom, apply some nice effects on the pictures I care more and those I want to put on photo paper to display physically at home. I'll use Photoshop around some times, maybe with time I'll start using it more often 🙂, and for video, I'll import my 70h home videos (home family videos, mind you 🙂), and for the most important ones, I'll just create some nice final result with Premiere Pro.

Those are all Adobe products 🙂 they are very nice ones, and it's for them that I see the possible advantage of having 8Gb now.

Not sure what you're asking, but DDR3-1333 in dual channel mode provides a lot of bandwidth. Despite the significant increase in bandwidth provided by DDR3-1600 in dual channel mode, it doesn't bring a proportional increase in overall performance.

[/quote]

How much Gb/s does 1333 have? How is it calculated? How can we calculate the bandwidth that the memory controller in the CPU has?

I'm thinking that I must match these values, ie, CPU communicate with memory with at least the same bandwidth that memory can work, for having a tuned up components, and not using the ram full potential.

Is that it?

 

[mfenn]

How much Gb/s does 1333 have? How is it calculated? How can we calculate the bandwidth that the memory controller in the CPU has?

I'm thinking that I must match these values, ie, CPU communicate with memory with at least the same bandwidth that memory can work, for having a tuned up components, and not using the ram full potential.

Is that it?

I'm really not sure what you're asking here.

DDR3 1333 runs at 667MHz with up to two transfers per clock cycle (that's how they get 1333MHz "effective"). Each channel (Sandy Bridge is dual channel) can send 64 bits (8 bytes) in each transfer. Therefore, multiplication tells us that dual-channel DDR3 1333 has a maximum theoretical bandwidth of 21.3GB/s.

If you're asking whether or not the raw memory bandwidth becomes a bottleneck to performance, the answer is "no" unless you are running some sort of highly transactional database or certain scientific applications.

 

[b4u]

I'm really not sure what you're asking here.

DDR3 1333 runs at 667MHz with up to two transfers per clock cycle (that's how they get 1333MHz "effective"). Each channel (Sandy Bridge is dual channel) can send 64 bits (8 bytes) in each transfer. Therefore, multiplication tells us that dual-channel DDR3 1333 has a maximum theoretical bandwidth of 21.3GB/s.

If you're asking whether or not the raw memory bandwidth becomes a bottleneck to performance, the answer is "no" unless you are running some sort of highly transactional database or certain scientific applications.

Yes, exactly what I was asking, only I didn't put the right words, in the right order 🙂

So DDR3 1600 will have a theoretical bandwidth of 25.6GB/s. Nice.

Now the other part ... the CPU communicates through the memory controller, now on CPU itself. That's the reason why you state that it will not saturate the memory bandwidth? If at some point the CPU has lot's of data to throw at RAM, it will just wait for memory to dispatch data sequentially, and if by any chance there was a possibility for a user to spot many situations like this, he could just switch DDR3 to a higher frequency module, say 2400MHz, and no need to mess with any setting more, right?

Thanks for the explanations 🙂

 

[mfenn]

Yes, exactly what I was asking, only I didn't put the right words, in the right order 🙂

So DDR3 1600 will have a theoretical bandwidth of 25.6GB/s. Nice.

Now the other part ... the CPU communicates through the memory controller, now on CPU itself. That's the reason why you state that it will not saturate the memory bandwidth? If at some point the CPU has lot's of data to throw at RAM, it will just wait for memory to dispatch data sequentially, and if by any chance there was a possibility for a user to spot many situations like this, he could just switch DDR3 to a higher frequency module, say 2400MHz, and no need to mess with any setting more, right?

Thanks for the explanations 🙂

You're welcome! 🙂

You are correct in that higher speed memory will increase memory bandwidth and thus performance. However, it is actually quite rare that a program will saturate the memory bus for any appreciable amount of time. I listed a few types of programs that can do so in my previous post.

 

[b4u]

Thanks for info.

I'm getting worried about Asus P8P67 line of boards, as they seem to have same issues with booting and ram.

Some sites appear to taken the product out, maybe for some Asus replacement or re-checking ... dunno.

Probably this is a too new of a product, which seems to get too much bugs at start. I wonder if this has just something to do with bios, and an update will fix this.

Also found some issues regarding disk detection under marvell controller, which also worries me.

The mobo seems quite good, it's sad they seem to have those issues. Does Asus have a good history of solving this kind of situations?

Some references to problems:

Marvell disk detection: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1577732

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=18226016

http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx...d=1&model=P8P67+DELUXE&page=1&SLanguage=en-us

http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx...d_id=1&model=P8P67+PRO&page=1&SLanguage=en-us

 

[b4u]

I've also found that my current DVD writer, a Plextor drive bought in 2005 has an IDE PATA connector ... 🙁

So another thing to buy, and this is a good drive I like. Looking into prices, I found another Plextor drive for 52€ and an Asus one for 23€ ... are there many differences between brands nowadays? I'm using Plextor for the last 15 years for recorders, they always looked better on specs and on overall product quality, although at a price premium ...

Also those new drives are not very different in speeds from my current model, which becomes sad to have to spend that extra cash for a sata model. 🙁 And my current model has 8Mb cache, but those new models have 1.5Mb ... ?!?!?! strange ...

The products I look into are:

Asus DRW-24B3ST for 23€
http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=74RWtmN064ehEDB5

Plextor PX-L890SA for 52€
http://www.plextor-digital.com/index.php/en/Internal-DVD+/-RW/px-l890sa.html

My current model:
Plextor PX-716A
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=11953

 

[mfenn]

I think you're suffering from a case of analysis paralysis my friend! I don't think spending 2 months on a simple computer purchase is quite healthy. 🙂

I wouldn't worry about buying the Asus board, though feel free to get an equivalent MSI or Gigabyte.

For the burner, just get whatever ASUS, Samsung, or LG is cheapest. They're all pretty much the same and there is certainly no need to pay a ton of money for one.

 

[b4u]

I think you're suffering from a case of analysis paralysis my friend! I don't think spending 2 months on a simple computer purchase is quite healthy. 🙂

I wouldn't worry about buying the Asus board, though feel free to get an equivalent MSI or Gigabyte.

For the burner, just get whatever ASUS, Samsung, or LG is cheapest. They're all pretty much the same and there is certainly no need to pay a ton of money for one.

Ahahah "analysis paralysis" 🙂 nice term, yeah I do a lot of research before buying computer parts ... maybe too much :whiste:

I'll most probably go with the Asus recorder, as I think paying double price for a Plextor may not give me any real benefit nowadays.

 

[mfenn]

Ahahah "analysis paralysis" 🙂 nice term, yeah I do a lot of research before buying computer parts ... maybe too much :whiste:

I'll most probably go with the Asus recorder, as I think paying double price for a Plextor may not give me any real benefit nowadays.

As long as you're aware of the problem, you can seek help! :awe: