comparison and help with the mac pro

[spiffyandy]

Hi, this is my first post, and I hope I am posting in the correct spot.

I have found out that I can get myself a computer for going to college. I really like the mac OS, and find it very stable, and currently I am looking at the mac pro, not the macBOOK pro, but the mac pro... To clear up any confusion.

Anyway, the mac pro comes with two quad cores, but myself not being as tech savvy as I should, only know that supposively:

A) 8 cores render faster than 4, 2, or 1
B) Ram speed, whatever that is really, is slower on the 8 cores than on the dual core'd computers
C) 8 cores costs a very large amount of money
D) A fast dual cored computer costs less.

My question is if the 8 cores are really worth it, or would I be better off buying a pc?
Please don't post fanboi'ness in here, as I am partial to both pc and mac, but I prefer mac in this situation as I can get some free software.

I am wanting to use this computer for heavy rendering of animations, video editing, and playing graphic intense games such as crysis.

Also, on a side note, if you use bootcamp, do you suffer any slowdown for using the mac based computer, or is it just as if I bought a dell or somesuch? This is for the games aspect of the computer.

The computer has average specs, the main hitter being the 8 cores of rendering goodness, while sporting a weak 1gig of ram, 256 vid nivida graphix card, and a 320 gig HDD. I do plan on upgrading this if I were to buy it, but right now it is costing me 3k.

And is RAM slowdown really an issue here, or should I not be concerned.

Thanks for the help, and if I forgot something, sorry, I will post with the needed info ASAP.

 

[ViRGE]

For most people I'd recommend going with a PC over a Mac Pro, however in your case you're actually the kind of person that would benefit from a workstation computer. For animation rendering in particular that should scale well to all 8 cores, but there's not much more I can tell you since I don't know what application you intend to use. "Worth it" is a relative term, it's probably not worth it on a performance per dollar scale (I don't expect that it would be 2x as fast as a PC half as cheap with a quad core processor) but in overall value since you're presumably getting some free high-end (read: expensive) software out of the deal I'd say it's worth it.

Bootcamp runs Windows at full speed. If you want an idea of performance, go read some recent AnandTech video card articles, they use an Intel Skulltrail motherboard that is very similar to the Mac Pro's. And the RAM slowdown shouldn't be an issue. It's less than ideal at a time when most people would be perfectly happy with 8GB of normal DDR2 and there is a performance hit, but it won't be deal breaking.

Make sure you have the kind of money you need to properly outfit a machine like that though. You're going to want the fastest video card you can get for that thing, and probably 8GB of RAM. And whatever you do, don't buy the RAM from Apple, you'll save hundreds of dollars just buying it from somewhere else like Crucial.

Oh, and don't forget about student discounts. Even with the base student discount you're going to save around 10%, and I think ADC members end up saving yet more even after the ADC membership cost.

 

[Parasitic]

For college you're really going to benefit more from a MBP rather than a workstation-type machine like the Mac Pro. Oh well, even the iMac.

 

[spiffyandy]

Thank you ViRGE. Yeah, I know that apple charges up the butt for the RAM, that's why I was going the route you suggested, and buying my extra RAM elsewhere. I intend to use programs like maya, although as of now, I am using blender, an open source modeling program that is doing quite nicely for me. But yeah, as I said, I also want to use it for games.

Will this RAM slowdown issue affect my gameplay if I were to play some games? Or mostly just affect my rendering performance?

I plan on slowly upgrading my computer as I need to, which is the main reason why I am getting the pro rather than the imac, as you can't really upgrade those and keep up with the times as easily as with the pro. And I have no clue what the ADC discount is, the link you provided tells me I can't access that part. I planned on buying refurbished, to maximize my savings, but I shall have to look into this ADC thing, maybe I can buy it from the store, at an even cheaper price.

As for the video card... I have a question about that. On the store for apple, you can buy options such as 4 vid cards with 512 or 256 or something like that. Why would you want 4 cards? Do they work together? or is it just for four monitors, and does nothing of importance if I have only one monitor?

Parastic, I don't need an imac, as I said above, because I can't upgrade it as well, and I personally hate the MBP

Thanks for the help!
-Spiffy

 

[LtPage1]

Originally posted by: spiffyandy
or is it just for four monitors, and does nothing of importance if I have only one monitor?
-Spiffy

It's actually for 8 monitors, and bingo. You'll want either the 8800GT, or the upcoming 3870 for your purposes. It sounds like you're the perfect customer for a Mac Pro, honestly- someone who'll actually use all 8 cores. Check out macsales.com for cheaper RAM.

 

[Parasitic]

Keep in mind that the Mac Pro memory isn't cheap, it's not your unbuffered run of the mill DDR2. I had a desktop for the first two years of college (well correction, all four years of college) and it was hugely impractical because most of the time I needed to be mobile I was locked down and plus it took up so much space (it was a Liani-Li mid-tower for the first two, then P180 for the next two) even with only a 15" LCD.

 

[Parasitic]

ADC is a $99 membership for software developers that can offer you a (slightly deeper) discount on one hardware purchase per lifetime of the membership. You can only make your ADC purchase on new Apple computers online.

http://developer.apple.com/

Also remember that unless you have highly specialized programs that have SMP (symmetric multiprocessing) optimizations you won't see much benefit out of 8 cores vs. 4 or even in extreme cases, 2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_multiprocessing

Finally, for bootcamp, you are going to need a corresponding Windows installation that is licensed for mutliple sockets to take advantage of the second processor. This means moving into Windows XP Professional/Server or Windows Vista Enterprise/Ultimate.

 

[ViRGE]

You will take a minor performance hit in everything with the FB-DIMMs compared to regular DDR2. It's not noticeable in most cases, but you're going to get 105fps instead of 115fps.

As for the ADC program, Parasitic has said most of what I want to say. To give you an idea on prices, a stock Mac Pro is normally $2799, the education discount is $2599, the ADC discount is $2239 ($2339 after ADC membership), and the refurbished version is $2399. It takes a bit of work to get in to the ADC program, but the savings are usually well worth it on such big-ticket purchases.

Oh and Parasitic, you don't need Vista Enterprise/Ultimate for multiple socket support, Vista Business supports it too.

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: Parasitic
For college you're really going to benefit more from a MBP rather than a workstation-type machine like the Mac Pro. Oh well, even the iMac.

ummm.. doesn't matter if he's going to college or not.. if you're doing heavy animation and video rendering, and want to play crysis too... the mac pro is a far better choice if he wanted to go apple.

 

[spiffyandy]

Thank you all for your insight.

Parasitic, just for some background information, I will be getting a lappy TOO, but a lappy isn't as important to me as a desktop, as I doubt I will be able to render things happily without A) having my lappy melt, B) Sucking all the battery juice outta it and C) With the crappier specs. When I do buy a lappy, I will prolly get a fairly basic one, and start trying to learn me some linux/unix/ubuntu/whatever OS it is.

so, I pay 100 bucks, and I get one discount... and then its done? bummer. That would make me want to save a crap load of cash, to get a bigger discount on a nicer mac.

Does anyone know how easy it is to change graphix cards in the mac pro? I don't have enough for a better one YET, but I plan on buying a nicer one, and would like to install myself, but should I?

 

[Parasitic]

Originally posted by: ViRGE
Oh and Parasitic, you don't need Vista Enterprise/Ultimate for multiple socket support, Vista Business supports it too.

Yea Business was what I meant..stopped tracking whatever names Microsoft decided to call their Vista editions nowadays.

And spiff: what kind of rendering applications are you talking about?

 

[ViRGE]

It's not too hard. But you'll pay out the butt in the future for a video card, Mac cards aren't cheap due to the low sales volume. You'd be better off getting a nicer card right now.

 

[Chris27]

Have you considered building a hackintosh? You could get the equivalent of a Mac Pro at a greatly reduced price in but in exchange you deal with driver issues (which you can greatly minimize by getting the right hardware). http://forum.insanelymac.com/ is a good source of info if you consider doing this.

 

[TheStu]

Originally posted by: Chris27
Have you considered building a hackintosh? You could get the equivalent of a Mac Pro at a greatly reduced price in but in exchange you deal with driver issues (which you can greatly minimize by getting the right hardware). http://forum.insanelymac.com/ is a good source of info if you consider doing this.

If he wants the huge RAM cap and Xeon goodness, then he is better off with the Mac Pro.

 

[hoihtah]

Originally posted by: TheStu

Originally posted by: Chris27
Have you considered building a hackintosh? You could get the equivalent of a Mac Pro at a greatly reduced price in but in exchange you deal with driver issues (which you can greatly minimize by getting the right hardware). http://forum.insanelymac.com/ is a good source of info if you consider doing this.

If he wants the huge RAM cap and Xeon goodness, then he is better off with the Mac Pro.

I have a 8 core (dual xeon e5440) workstation that I use for video editing purposes.
In my experience, osx was better than xp in terms of software utilizing all 8 cores.
I get stuff from intel at work, so i didn't have to pay for it...
But if you're thinking of building one, i can testify that it works.

It'd definitely be cheaper option.

I'm not sure how much memory you're looking to get, but unless you're looking for 16+GB, there are plenty of boards around $250~.

oh... and i almost forgot to answer your question.
unless you do some serious video editing... 8 cores are totally overrated.
there aren't too many applications that will utilize all 8 cores right now.
i'd rather get 2 quadcore systems instead, if i had to pay for it.

 

[spiffyandy]

well I am going to buy a mac pro, as it looks to be good, but now the question is, can the mac pro support any SATA HDD?
Or must it meet specifications?

I don't have enough money to buy a 2nd right now, but I will later. So do I have to buy direct from apple and be raped in the buttocks with price gouging or no....?

Also, this HDD (2nd) will be used for windows, so one is mac, one is windows... not sure if that influences anything or not.

Thanks for all your help peeps!

I love this forum.

 

[TheStu]

Originally posted by: spiffyandy
well I am going to buy a mac pro, as it looks to be good, but now the question is, can the mac pro support any SATA HDD?
Or must it meet specifications?

I don't have enough money to buy a 2nd right now, but I will later. So do I have to buy direct from apple and be raped in the buttocks with price gouging or no....?

Also, this HDD (2nd) will be used for windows, so one is mac, one is windows... not sure if that influences anything or not.

Thanks for all your help peeps!

I love this forum.

Any SATA hard drive will work, as will any DDR2-800 ECC FBDIMMs for the RAM

 

[spiffyandy]

so... on newegg, I don't have to buy from the apple section of memory?

Why would they have an apple section if I don't need to buy apple type ram?

Would it be safer to buy from the apple types? (not from the overpriced apple store)

 

[ViRGE]

Macs as a rule of thumb are picky about SPD timings. If the Mac uses specific memory timings that the RAM doesn't support, it often won't work with said RAM even if it supports such timings. Often this is a case where the RAM is faster than what the Mac needs, but doesn't list the kind of timings expected. The RAM under the Apple section is tested with Macs and hence will be supported, non-"Apple" RAM isn't tested, and while it probably will work, it may not. I'm not a big fan of pushing my luck, especially when prices are so close.

 

[spiffyandy]

ah thought so... one more thing about that then.

Can you mix brands of apple type ram, and also, can you mix timings? or should you go with 800mghz (what the original ram is that is used for mac pro)

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: spiffyandy
ah thought so... one more thing about that then.

Can you mix brands of apple type ram, and also, can you mix timings? or should you go with 800mghz (what the original ram is that is used for mac pro)

Mixing timings and speeds are dicey. Find out what the default speed and timings are (Crucial is a good source of this) and then make sure you buy something as fast as or better and things should work.