Compact flourescent bulbs, great for energy savings, environment

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Modelworks
It does matter if you have children or are pregnant , which is why I posted it.

Nope, still too little mercury in a CFL to harm either.

So you have no problem, breaking a cfl open and swallowing the contents ?

As I posted in other threads, there isn't enough mercury in a CFL to cause problems. I would have no problems swallowing the mercury in a CFL bulb. I wouldn't purposely go out and do it, but if I accidently ingested it, I wouldn't worry. Why? Because there is so little mercury it isn't a problem. A large mackerel steak (or swordfish, or shark, or others) has about the same amount of mercury as the CFL bulb that I linked above. If you are against mercury in your CFL bulbs, you must be against eating many kinds of fish.

The WHO gives a tolerable mercury level of 2 ug of mercury per kg of body weight per day (http://www.who.int/phe/news/Mercury-flyer.pdf , see page 3). Thus, I (154 lbs) can safely tollerate 0.14 mg of mercury ingested a day, each and every day of my life. At 1 mg for the CFL bulb I linked, that isn't much above that tolerable level. And as a one time occurance, going a bit above the tolerable level won't cause any problems.

The 1000 gallons of water is a red-herring argument. I could easily get a panel of people together and set an arbitrary number making that be 1,000,000 gallons of water are contaminated. Or I could get a different panel and give an arbitrary number of 1 gallon of water. Don't make the mistake that journalists often make and take arbitrary numbers and use them to form sensationalist news articles. Instead, go with scientifically reviewed studies.

I'll also point out that ingested mercury isn't that bad. IIRC, it'll pass right on through. It's methyl mercury and other organic compounds of mercury that are absorbed and are really bad for you.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
I'll also point out that ingested mercury isn't that bad. IIRC, it'll pass right on through. It's methyl mercury and other organic compounds of mercury that are absorbed and are really bad for you.

Exactly. I believe it was you in another CFL thread that did the math and showed that a CFL bulb (if it all went into the atmosphere in a typical room) would still be under the safe maximums of mercury in the air.

Yes, mercury is bad. Yes, you should avoid it. Yes, CFLs have a tiny amount of it. Those are all true. But the amount is so small, and the chance of getting a significant amount of mercury from a CFL is so miniscule, that there really isn't a big problem here. If you happen to have a tiny closet, with no air flow, and shatter a whole box of them, and stay there for days on end you will suffer from mercury problems. That is true. But you can say the same thing about many household chemicals that are even more hazzardous. Be cautious around CFLs, don't panic if you break one, and you'll save yourself money and you'll save the environment. By saving the environment, you'll get yourself a net LOSS of mercury contamination with CFLs, even if you break a few in your house.

Also, I've said that same heat argument: standard lightbulbs in the house in the winter when you have a space heater running are NOT energy wasters.

 

[imported_Baloo]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
More on Mercury, Coal and CFLs - Updated

Summary
Mercury from the CFLs and their use = 2,259 pounds
Mercury from incandescent bulb usage = 2,425 pounds [/b]

The difference is the mercury from incandescent bulbs isn't brought into your home when you buy the bulb.

That's right, is put into the air you breath everyday.

 

[CPA]

If your company is looking for a method of getting rid of flourescent lights

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: CPA
If your company is looking for a method of getting rid of flourescent lights

I think it's worth a look for everyone: check out the costs of recycling fluorescent bulbs. Just yesterday morning, the maintenance guy was doing some work in my classroom with a ballast and some bulbs. I commented about how loud it was when you broke them in the dumpster. He pointed out to me that "the bulbs cost us a dollar to replace, but it costs us TWO dollars to recycle each one." That's when I found out that we're legally obligated to recycle the bad bulbs.

 

[Ernie99]

If mercury is not bad for you, why is the drinking water standard for mercury levels set at 2 parts per billion?

 

[Ernie99]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: CPA
If your company is looking for a method of getting rid of flourescent lights

I think it's worth a look for everyone: check out the costs of recycling fluorescent bulbs. Just yesterday morning, the maintenance guy was doing some work in my classroom with a ballast and some bulbs. I commented about how loud it was when you broke them in the dumpster. He pointed out to me that "the bulbs cost us a dollar to replace, but it costs us TWO dollars to recycle each one." That's when I found out that we're legally obligated to recycle the bad bulbs.

Disposal is rather expensive, but that should include transportation to the recycling facility which could account for close to half of that $2. Also, have you seen the machine used to recycle mercury-containing lamps?

 

[Ernie99]

Originally posted by: dullard
Exactly. I believe it was you in another CFL thread that did the math and showed that a CFL bulb (if it all went into the atmosphere in a typical room) would still be under the safe maximums of mercury in the air.

The OSHA limit for mercury exposure in the workplace is 0.1 milligram of mercury per cubic meter of airspace.

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Modelworks
It does matter if you have children or are pregnant , which is why I posted it.

Nope, still too little mercury in a CFL to harm either.

So you have no problem, breaking a cfl open and swallowing the contents ?

As I posted in other threads, there isn't enough mercury in a CFL to cause problems. I would have no problems swallowing the mercury in a CFL bulb. I wouldn't purposely go out and do it, but if I accidently ingested it, I wouldn't worry. Why? Because there is so little mercury it isn't a problem. A large mackerel steak (or swordfish, or shark, or others) has about the same amount of mercury as the CFL bulb that I linked above. If you are against mercury in your CFL bulbs, you must be against eating many kinds of fish.

The WHO gives a tolerable mercury level of 2 ug of mercury per kg of body weight per day (http://www.who.int/phe/news/Mercury-flyer.pdf , see page 3). Thus, I (154 lbs) can safely tollerate 0.14 mg of mercury ingested a day, each and every day of my life. At 1 mg for the CFL bulb I linked, that isn't much above that tolerable level. And as a one time occurance, going a bit above the tolerable level won't cause any problems.

The 1000 gallons of water is a red-herring argument. I could easily get a panel of people together and set an arbitrary number making that be 1,000,000 gallons of water are contaminated. Or I could get a different panel and give an arbitrary number of 1 gallon of water. Don't make the mistake that journalists often make and take arbitrary numbers and use them to form sensationalist news articles. Instead, go with scientifically reviewed studies.

You plainly state that it's too little mercury even if someone has children or is pregnant. For simplicity's sake let's say that someone has a 22-lb (10-kg) child. A safe daily intake of mercury for that child is .02mg. If that person currently has the CFL bulbs with 5g of mercury in them, this could pose a health threat to the child since 5g of mercury is 250 times what is a safe daily level for them.

This is especially true since most people don't even know of the thread. If I drop and break a 4-pack of incadescent bulbs, I just clean up the mess and don't think about any other precautions. If someone who's pregnant or has a small child broke a 4-pack of the CFL bulbs with 5g of mercury each, they shouldn't just sweep up the mess and go about their day.

Thanks OP for sharing this information.

 

[everman]

What about LEDs?

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: dullard
Myth.

1) CFLs HAD mercury. But by the end of 2007 all new CFL bulbs were supposed to be mercury free.

Fact
You cannot currently make a CFL without mercury.

They will simply have a hell of a lot less mercury. They're already reducing it considerably. 1mg of mercury.

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Every study I've ever seen completely ignores that heat energy from incandescent bulbs isn't always "wasted." For those of us in more Northern climates (NY)- who heat their homes 6 or more months of the year, and who only occasionally use air conditioning, the heat from incandescent bulbs is NOT wasted during the months when the heat is on. I'll bow down to the argument that if it's a ceiling light, on the top floor of a poorly insulated house, that the heat is wasted as it is lost through the ceiling. But, that's not the majority of the light bulbs. 500 watts of incandescent bulbs operating uses the same amount of energy as 100 watts of CFL's and a 400 watt space heater. In those two cases, if they give off the same amount of light, then they give off the same amount of heat. In fact, we actually use special 250 watt lightbulbs to provide heat in certain applications.

Of course, let's say you replace your incandescents with CFLs. The heat that the incandescents put off will have to come from somewhere. Let's say it comes from electric heat. Well, now maybe you're right back where you started, at least in terms of cost. But if it comes from something else, like gas, wood, or coal, then you're saving money by producing the heat from them, rather than by electricity through the bulbs.

CFL Recycling Containers

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: kalrith
This is especially true since most people don't even know of the thread. If I drop and break a 4-pack of incadescent bulbs, I just clean up the mess and don't think about any other precautions. If someone who's pregnant or has a small child broke a 4-pack of the CFL bulbs with 5g of mercury each, they shouldn't just sweep up the mess and go about their day.

It certainly isn't 5 g each. If it were, then there would be a major problem.

Dropping and breaking a 4-pack probably won't put anyone in any danger, even a child or a pregnant woman. It isn't like you inhale or ingest every atom of mercury in the bulb. The safest possible thing is to air out the room for a little bit, and then later dispose of it once the mercury is mostly gone. Problem solved. But, even if you don't, you aren't suddenly going to be in serious trouble. Dropping 40 in a small room, yes. Dropping 4 in a normal room, no.

But the same thing can be said about many household things. Break 4 bottles of bleach and I hope you don't let your child play in it.

Originally posted by: Ernie99
If mercury is not bad for you, why is the drinking water standard for mercury levels set at 2 parts per billion?

We as a society do have some problems with mercury poisoning - no sane person says mercury isn't bad for you. Thus, we should try to minimize mercury problems. Water is one easy and cheap way to do that. The EPA has found that 2 parts per billion is as low as a water plant can go cheaply. It is a couple hundred times more stringent than it absolutely needs to be, but why should we strive for the bare minimum when better isn't expensive?

The main problem isn't drinking water -> human mercury. The main problem is drinking water -> rivers/lakes/seas/oceans -> fish -> human mercury. Doing the bare minimum of say 500 parts per billion may be safe from the water -> human drinking part of the picture. But it isn't necesarily safe once you include the fish part of the picture.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Ernie99
If mercury is not bad for you, why is the drinking water standard for mercury levels set at 2 parts per billion?

We as a society do have some problems with mercury poisoning - no sane person says mercury isn't bad for you. Thus, we should try to minimize mercury problems. Water is one easy and cheap way to do that. The EPA has found that 2 parts per billion is as low as a water plant can go cheaply. It is a couple hundred times more stringent than it absolutely needs to be, but why should we strive for the bare minimum when better isn't expensive?

The main problem isn't drinking water -> human mercury. The main problem is drinking water -> rivers/lakes/seas/oceans -> fish -> human mercury. Doing the bare minimum of say 500 parts per billion may be safe from the water -> human drinking part of the picture. But it isn't necesarily safe once you include the fish part of the picture.

And there's the issue of exposure time. Drinking water and air, you obviously use those every day, so it's a good idea to really reduce the allowable toxin levels in either one.


I just noticed this:

Fluorescents ? the squiggly, coiled bulbs that generate light by heating gases in a glass tube ? are generally considered to use more than 50 percent less energy and to last several times longer than incandescent bulbs.

Yay Media!!! It's called ionization, dammit. Yes, some heating goes on, but that's not "how they work."
It's one reason I don't care to read newspapers - they're written at a kindergarten level.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
And there's the issue of exposure time. Drinking water and air, you obviously use those every day, so it's a good idea to really reduce the allowable toxin levels in either one.

Right. Compare water that everyone in the world drinks every day to a CFL that only a few people may someday break once or twice.

You focus on the big issues that affect everyone. The small and rare issue of a CFL is nearly meaningless compared to that.

 

[Modelworks]

You are absolutely insane, and I hope you don't have children, if you would let children around broken CFL like its nothing special.
I don't think you understand that the mercury in the bulb is not in little drops that fall on the floor and you just wipe up.
It is in vapor form, meaning when you break one, it goes into the air like fine dust particles.
Parents need to be aware of how to properly clean it up.

Sure its better to use cfl for the environment, but you also need to be aware that if it does break you need to clean it up correctly, and you shouldn't just toss them in the trash.
I'll trust the actual tests versus your opinions.


From the Maine governments site:
http://maine.gov/dep/rwm/homeowner/cflreport.htm

February 2008

Executive Summary

Forty five (45) experimental trials where compact fluorescent lamps (CFLs) were broken in a small/ moderate sized room were conducted in May through September of 2007. Eighteen (18) trials, three trials each of six differing scenarios, were originally planned for this study; however, additional trials were added to attempt to more fully address potential cleanup concerns. Broken lamps were either not cleaned up, cleaned up using Maine Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) pre-study cleanup guidance, vacuumed, or cleaned up using variations of the pre-study cleanup guidance. The mercury concentrations at the five foot height (adult breathing zone) and one foot height (infant/toddler breathing zone)1 above the study room floor were continuously monitored. The most notable finding of the study was how variable the results can be depending on the type of lamp, level of ventilation and cleanup method.

The pre-study cleanup guidance was generally found to be sound, including the advice to not vacuum as part of the cleanup. However as a result of this study, the cleanup guidance was modified. The new cleanup guidance can be seen in Appendix E.

Mercury concentration in the study room air often exceeds the Maine Ambient Air Guideline (MAAG) of 300 nanograms per cubic meter (ng/m3) for some period of time, with short excursions over 25,000 ng/m3, sometimes over 50,000 ng/m3, and possibly over 100,000 ng/m3 from the breakage of a single compact fluorescent lamp. A short period of venting can, in most cases, significantly reduce the mercury air concentrations after breakage. Concentrations can sometimes rebound when rooms are no longer vented, particularly with certain types of lamps and during/after vacuuming. Mercury readings at the one foot height tend to be greater than at the five foot height in non vacuumed situations.

Although following the pre-study cleanup guidance produces visibly clean flooring surfaces for both wood and carpets (shag and short nap), all types of flooring surfaces tested can retain mercury sources even when visibly clean. Flooring surfaces, once visibly clean, can emit mercury immediately at the source that can be greater than 50,000 ng/m3. Flooring surfaces that still contain mercury sources emit more mercury when agitated than when not agitated. This mercury source in the carpeting has particular significance for children rolling around on a floor, babies crawling, or non mobile infants placed on the floor.

Cleaning up a broken CFL by vacuuming up the smaller debris particles in an un-vented room can elevate mercury concentrations over the MAAG in the room and it can linger at these levels for hours. Vacuuming tends to mix the air within the room such that the one foot and five foot heights are similar immediately after vacuuming. A vacuum can become contaminated by mercury such that it cannot be easily decontaminated. Vacuuming a carpet where a lamp has broken and been visibly cleaned up, even weeks after the cleanup, can elevate the mercury readings over the MAAG in an un-vented room.

Some container types were found to be better than others for containing mercury emissions from breakage. Of the containers tested, a glass jar with a metal cover and gum seal contained the mercury vapor best. Double re-sealable polyethylene bags, on the other hand, did not appear to retard the migration of mercury adequately to maintain room air concentrations below the MAAG. Other containers fell somewhere in the middle between the glass and double re-sealable polyethylene bags for retarding mercury vapor migration. The significance of this issue is that cleanup material may remain in the home for some period of time and/or be transported inside a closed vehicle, exposing occupants to avoidable mercury vapors when improperly contained.

The decision on whether or not to remove carpet where there was a broken lamp may depend on a number of factors including the location of the carpet (e.g. where a child plays or where the carpet is frequently agitated), the occupants of the household, or possibly the type of lamp broken. Finally, it is unclear what the exact health risks are from exposure to low levels of elemental mercury, especially for sensitive populations, so advising for the careful handling and thoughtful placement of CFLs may be important. Based on this study, DEP modified the cleanup guidance for a broken CFL (see Appendix E).

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
quoted article:
<SNIP>Finally, it is unclear what the exact health risks are from exposure to low levels of elemental mercury, especially for sensitive populations, so advising for the careful handling and thoughtful placement of CFLs may be important.<snip>

In other words, "we picked a random number and decided that's the maximum allowable concentration of mercury in the air. We don't know what the exact health risks are at that level, but obviously, the risks are greater for someone more sensitive to mercury. Therefore, we think you should be extremely careful when cleaning up a CFL"

Also, in my opinion, that article chose the unit nanograms rather than micrograms, simply to make the numbers seem much larger. Sure, 25,000 nanograms to 100,000 micrograms is a high mercury concentration. (25 micrograms and 100 micrograms respectively.) However, it takes CHRONIC exposure at that level before any symptoms are produced; not simply a few minutes or an hour of exposure. i.e. the difference between being in a room with a smoker once during year and living with a chain smoker for a year.

 

[QueBert]

hummm I saw a hardcore wrestling match where a dude got 100 of these lights smashed over his bare back in about 10 minutes. This kind of wrestling is pretty popular on the underground circuit. I always found the matches retarded, seems dangerous, that was before I read this, I had no idea about this article. interesting stuff.

 

[gururu2]

you guys are crazy if you think dropping mercury in the water system is equivalent to having it dissipate in air.

CFL mercury goes directly into the earth/ground water, whereas ICL mercury goes directly into the air. Which do you suppose has a greater dilution effect?
Dilution renders every contaminant benign.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Jeff7
And there's the issue of exposure time. Drinking water and air, you obviously use those every day, so it's a good idea to really reduce the allowable toxin levels in either one.

Right. Compare water that everyone in the world drinks every day to a CFL that only a few people may someday break once or twice.

You focus on the big issues that affect everyone. The small and rare issue of a CFL is nearly meaningless compared to that.

The difference is the small amount of mercury in water is probably harmless. The mercury in a CFL in your house is harmful...

 

[Rubycon]

What about all the mercury in the CCFL tubes in displays in notebook PC's and flat panel displays? Lots of these just get tossed in the dumpster too. My Lifebook has a warning about proper disposal because its backlighting contains Hg. (mercury)

While we're at it - ALL HID lighting from streetlighting, stadium lighting, outdoor lighting for parking lots, garages, billboards, highway signage, etc. to the HID lights used in autocars - all contain mercury in their arc tube capsules.

Many households have a LOT more mercury - often in pure form - in wall thermostats. The bulb in a T87F has close to 10 GRAMS (10,000mg) of pure Hg! How many of you have an old fashioned fever thermometer with the silver bulb on the bottom? Due to the one way capillary in the bottom - so the temperature reading doesn't drop as it's removed from the patient's mouth - it must be shaken down before re-use. Lots of time during this shaking it gets broken and often the mercury (again the equivalent of 100's of CFL bulbs) gets thrown everywhere. I guess they've banned the use of Hg in fever thermometers today for this reason. Just as mercury power cells - often used in hearing aids and microphones for their very flat discharge curve and cheapness compared to silver oxide - were banned years ago. I remember pulling apart a depleted mercury cell (357AG equiv) and finding LOTS of mercury beads in it. When gathered up the sphere was easily 1/3" around! Just one lousy cell! Today one sees alkaline power cells advertised to contain practically zero mercury now.

The cumulative effects - who knows how much of this stuff is hitting the ground from breakage of bulbs. The future is very bright for LED technology, however. Instant startup, much longer life and no hazard from disposal whatsoever. Once the price comes down, LED's will replace CFL lamps.

 

[Raduque]

Man, by the headless chickens' logic, I, my dog, my cat, my fish and anybody who comes in my apartment should be dead by now from mercury poisoning. I've broken at least 15-20 CFL bulbs (they're all I use) doing various things, and both me and my small animals are all still alive.

That being said, I'll replace them all with LEDs once I can get 4 40w LED bulbs made for standard incandescent fixtures for $10 at walmart.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Raduque
Man, by the headless chickens' logic, I, my dog, my cat, my fish and anybody who comes in my apartment should be dead by now from mercury poisoning. I've broken at least 15-20 CFL bulbs (they're all I use) doing various things, and both me and my small animals are all still alive.

That being said, I'll replace them all with LEDs once I can get 4 40w LED bulbs made for standard incandescent fixtures for $10 at walmart.

I think some people got the wrong idea.
Mercury poisoning isn't something where you ingest/inhale mercury and you die.
Unless you ingest huge amounts you will live.

Its something that affects development in children similar to the way lead does.
So if your child has development problems later you might never know that it was mercury that caused it. Its just better to be a little cautious rather than ignore it.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
More on Mercury, Coal and CFLs - Updated

Summary
Mercury from the CFLs and their use = 2,259 pounds
Mercury from incandescent bulb usage = 2,425 pounds [/b]

Every study I've ever seen completely ignores that heat energy from incandescent bulbs isn't always "wasted." For those of us in more Northern climates (NY)- who heat their homes 6 or more months of the year, and who only occasionally use air conditioning, the heat from incandescent bulbs is NOT wasted during the months when the heat is on. I'll bow down to the argument that if it's a ceiling light, on the top floor of a poorly insulated house, that the heat is wasted as it is lost through the ceiling. But, that's not the majority of the light bulbs. 500 watts of incandescent bulbs operating uses the same amount of energy as 100 watts of CFL's and a 400 watt space heater. In those two cases, if they give off the same amount of light, then they give off the same amount of heat. In fact, we actually use special 250 watt lightbulbs to provide heat in certain applications.

easy, incandescents in the winter, CFL's in the summer.
I'm brilliant!

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
More on Mercury, Coal and CFLs - Updated

Summary
Mercury from the CFLs and their use = 2,259 pounds
Mercury from incandescent bulb usage = 2,425 pounds [/b]

Every study I've ever seen completely ignores that heat energy from incandescent bulbs isn't always "wasted." For those of us in more Northern climates (NY)- who heat their homes 6 or more months of the year, and who only occasionally use air conditioning, the heat from incandescent bulbs is NOT wasted during the months when the heat is on. I'll bow down to the argument that if it's a ceiling light, on the top floor of a poorly insulated house, that the heat is wasted as it is lost through the ceiling. But, that's not the majority of the light bulbs. 500 watts of incandescent bulbs operating uses the same amount of energy as 100 watts of CFL's and a 400 watt space heater. In those two cases, if they give off the same amount of light, then they give off the same amount of heat. In fact, we actually use special 250 watt lightbulbs to provide heat in certain applications.

If you take that into account, don't forget to also take into account how much harder your HVAC system or air conditioners will have to work in the summer.

I know you mentioned it, but on Long Island at least, 2-3 months in the summer is definitely AC time.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Ernie99

Originally posted by: dullard
Exactly. I believe it was you in another CFL thread that did the math and showed that a CFL bulb (if it all went into the atmosphere in a typical room) would still be under the safe maximums of mercury in the air.

The OSHA limit for mercury exposure in the workplace is 0.1 milligram of mercury per cubic meter of airspace.

And a normal smallish room is about 2 x 3 x 2.5 meters. That gives us a normal room volume of around 15 cubic meters. Divide the 1 mg of mercury in modern CFL bulbs by 15 and your number is 0.066mg/m^3. Under the OSHA limit.

It should also be noted that OSHA limits assume continuous exposure and are in general lower than they need to be. OSHA regulations require you to wear shin guards, goggles, and earmuffs to use a weed whacker for pete's sake. 9 times out of 10 OSHA regulations are ridiculous bullshit designed to make lawmakers feel warm and fuzzy. The other 1 time out of 10, OSHA requirements are things that should never need to be explained, like "don't try to stop a chainsaw with your hands".

ZV