Communication on this forum

[Bowfinger]

Maybe if people understood what straw man arguments were and how to avoid them, the term wouldn't be used so frequently. ...

This. It's hilarious to see certain members constantly whining about "straw man" when the solution is at their fingertips. All they have to do is stop posting straw man arguments and start addressing their opponents' positions directly and accurately. But that requires accepting personal accountability, of course, and requires a depth of subject knowledge beyond canned talking points. It's essentially a version of, "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." When all you have is talking points, every argument must be twisted into a straw man that can be attacked with talking points. It's the best they can do.

 

[woolfe9998]

Really? You got all that meaning out of that one post. Amazing! 🙄

Somebody piss in your Cheerios today?

No, I didn't get "all that meaning" from that one post. It's an example of something I've observed on many occasions on this forum. Confirmation bias is common. This was just a particularly clear case to illustrate it.

 

[Doppel]

U forgot libtard and conservatard and gun nut and gun grabber

 

[boomerang]

A highly technical forum would be appropriate. Somehow you pulled bullshit out of my post that didnt exsist. Did my statement I completely agree confuse you?

Absolutely not. But you didn't agree to the Highly Technical suggestion, you were agreeing with what Dr. Pizza said in his first sentence. Nowhere in your reply did you make even the slightest reference to the Highly Technical forum. (I know you're going to say otherwise you rascal you!)

But, notwithstanding that, will your abundance of Climate Change posts be in the Highly Technical forum from now on? I'm hoping for a yes. I think P&N will benefit greatly from it. No more will any of us in here have to endure a "climate change conspiracy circle jerk based on pseudoscience". We'll all be better off.

P.S. You do know there actually is a Highly Technical forum, right?

 

[BoberFett]

Learn to count......f**king asshole! :biggrin:

:biggrin:

 

[boomerang]

Back to the topic at hand, I've become quite fond of progz lately. It rolls off the keyboard far better that progtard.

As far as the strawman arguments, maybe we could get a bipartisan core group together to make up a manual of sorts, a treatise on posting in P&N. Then we could elect some people to enforce those rules and some to dole out punishments and it would be really great and then, well we'd...have...Discussion Club. Never mind...

 

[woolfe9998]

Back to the topic at hand, I've become quite fond of progz lately. It rolls off the keyboard far better that progtard.

As far as the strawman arguments, maybe we could get a bipartisan core group together to make up a manual of sorts, a treatise on posting in P&N. Then we could elect some people to enforce those rules and some to dole out punishments and it would be really great and then, well we'd...have...Discussion Club. Never mind...

We shouldn't need mod enforcement for something so common sense as not mis-stating the opposing argument. Adults should be exercising self-restraint to not do that.

 

[boomerang]

We shouldn't need mod enforcement for something so common sense as not mis-stating the opposing argument. Adults should be exercising self-restraint to not do that.

Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. People have jobs and lives and kids and sick parents and so on. Misstating an opposing argument can be as simple as not having been able to catch the news since morning. Look at the recent shooting thread for proof of that. The media changed their story multiple times in a single day and the next. Anyone's knowledge can easily be temporarily frozen with the responsibilities of day to day life.

Also, the adage that "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one" very much applies. We all have opinions and so far we all have the right to share them. Live and let live. (And yup, I'm as guilty of the next guy of not living by that creed.)

 

[woolfe9998]

Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. People have jobs and lives and kids and sick parents and so on. Misstating an opposing argument can be as simple as not having been able to catch the news since morning. Look at the recent shooting thread for proof of that. The media changed their story multiple times in a single day and the next. Anyone's knowledge can easily be temporarily frozen with the responsibilities of day to day life.

Also, the adage that "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one" very much applies. We all have opinions and so far we all have the right to share them. Live and let live. (And yup, I'm as guilty of the next guy of not living by that creed.)

Occasionally there are innocent reasons for mis-stating someone else's argument. The ordinary reason is intellectual dishonesty. Nothing is worse than a straw man because it confuses the issue under discussion. Other fallacies at least stay within the confines of what is being argued. When you mis-state the other argument, it is impossible to have a rational discussion.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

This is from a different thread but it belongs better here.

With all due respect Charles, that's not true. Yes, the majority of P&Ners voted to rescind Idontcare's trial of a no-insults rule. That was in part because the rule was capriciously enforced, in part because a large segment of P&N (myself included) never felt insults were the real problem here, and in part simply because the rule never really delivered on its promises. Yes, overt insults were down, but the noise level was at least as bad as before thanks to a handful of prolific misfits dedicated to being as disruptive as possible while remaining just barely, arguably, within the lines. Some are still quite active here, with predictable results.

The bottom line is simple: given an opportunity to reform this sewer, and also given an alternative, most people have chosen to keep this place as it is, and remain here. Thus, this is the way most of them want it.

If a majority of people wanted change here, things would change. They don't. In fact, the people actually interested in rational debate on non-technical topics probably amount to less than 10% of this forum's population, based on the irrationality and childishness on display here daily. OT is just as bad, just in a different way.

It seems to me that with the rejection of the no-insults rule, management here threw up its hands and said, "Screw it, we tried. Give them the cesspool they want."

That does appear to be the case. But it's at least in part because the people here have also given up, because they really don't care. So why should the admins exert the effort?

To be clear, I can't blame moderators for that. They are volunteers, and trying to moderate this place has to be one of the most thankless jobs on the face of the planet. Everything you do to try to improve quality and reduce disruption will be immediately challenged by one half of a small, but vocal group of perpetual crybabies (as you saw in DC). This is especially true for trying to moderate content, which is inherently subjective. Who needs that hassle?

It's worth the work if there are a lot of people who value it. Not otherwise. The DC is a failed experiment primarily because most people prefer garbage over meaningful discussion.

I doubt that's what he wants. To whatever extent it's on his radar at all, I imagine it's what he's resigned himself to accepting.

Resigned himself? He's in charge. He could implement any policies he wanted and get this place cleaned up in a week.

It's the way it is either because he wants it this way, or because he doesn't care. There are no other options.

 

[woolfe9998]

It's worth the work if there are a lot of people who value it. Not otherwise. The DC is a failed experiment primarily because most people prefer garbage over meaningful discussion.

Why do you say it's failed? DC discussions are a least more rational by degrees than those in P&N. The posting volume isn't as high which is why I still post in P&N, but the quality of discussion there is generally better.

 

[michal1980]

all the forum liberals here:

"All converstards are stupid fucktard rush Limbaugh puppet idiots. Oh and we're not liberals there no liberals in the USA"

 

[Angry Irishman]

This post which should be harmless even generates debate between "lefties and righties".....wow.

What a bunch of fucking assholes.

 

[Screech]

Also, the adage that "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one" very much applies.

I've always preferred the one that says, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and most are full of shit."

😛

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Why do you say it's failed?

Because it never achieved critical mass, and is mostly ignored even by many of the people who said they wanted it in the first place. And because it gave the admins an easy way to avoid a more proper solution, which is draining this swamp, imposing reasonable discussion standards like those in every other room here, and kicking the persistent trolls and troublemakers to the curb.

I regret suggesting it and I regret being involved in it. While my intentions were good, the idea was flawed from the start and allowed the real problems to be swept under the rug. And for that I apologize to those who actually would like to see this forum functional.

 

[dank69]

all the forum liberals here:

"All converstards are stupid fucktard rush Limbaugh puppet idiots. Oh and we're not liberals there no liberals in the USA"

Hey look, a straw man.

 

[Juddog]

all the forum liberals here:

"All converstards are stupid fucktard rush Limbaugh puppet idiots. Oh and we're not liberals there no liberals in the USA"

You just couldn't resist, huh? 🙄

 

[surfsatwerk]

I assume P/N to be just like if strangers on the street started screaming opinions at each other. Sure some of them may have reasonable points to make, but who's listening.

 

[mammador]

Most people on this forum are uni educated. and have learnt how to debate.

so strawman figures. As do leftie and rightie. Besides, if it's a political discussion, what do you expect than to use political terms? if people debate football/soccer, is it "wrong" to say the words "striker", "defender", "width" or "automatic sending off"?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I regret suggesting it and I regret being involved in it. While my intentions were good, the idea was flawed from the start and allowed the real problems to be swept under the rug. And for that I apologize to those who actually would like to see this forum functional.

I don't agree that the idea was flawed from the start...it was a good idea....it was just poorly implemented in my opinion.

 

[Greenman]

I don't agree that the idea was flawed from the start...it was a good idea....it was just poorly implemented in my opinion.

I'd agree with this. Though I don't think it would have ever had the traffic P&N gets. Having to ask permission to join, and the announcement that there was already a list of undesirables was an enormous mistake. It added to the stink of hubris already surrounding the place.

 

[xBiffx]

I'd agree with this. Though I don't think it would have ever had the traffic P&N gets. Having to ask permission to join, and the announcement that there was already a list of undesirables was an enormous mistake. It added to the stink of hubris already surrounding the place.

Pretty much. P&N is good enough for you plebeians but we deserve better attitude around it. Nothing like defining a class of untouchables.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I'd agree with this. Though I don't think it would have ever had the traffic P&N gets. Having to ask permission to join, and the announcement that there was already a list of undesirables was an enormous mistake. It added to the stink of hubris already surrounding the place.

The stench is overwhelming at times. But don't dare say it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris

Hubris /ˈhjuːbrɪs/, also hybris, from ancient Greek ὕβρις, means extreme pride or arrogance. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power. Hubris is usually associated with the "simple-minded". The adjectival form of the noun hubris is "hubristic".

 

[woolfe9998]

Because it never achieved critical mass, and is mostly ignored even by many of the people who said they wanted it in the first place. And because it gave the admins an easy way to avoid a more proper solution, which is draining this swamp, imposing reasonable discussion standards like those in every other room here, and kicking the persistent trolls and troublemakers to the curb.

I regret suggesting it and I regret being involved in it. While my intentions were good, the idea was flawed from the start and allowed the real problems to be swept under the rug. And for that I apologize to those who actually would like to see this forum functional.

I for one like having DC as a second option. In general the quality of discussions there are better than on P&N. I agree the traffic is too low but that is the only problem I see with it.

 

[Oyeve]

I'm just surprised the idiots on this forum even know how to use Straw man.