Common Ground Between Libertarians and Progressives: Is it possible?

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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The US was founded on the idea that government should treat every person equally by protecting his fundamental rights to life, liberty, and property.

We have strayed so far from that path at this point that we can barely recall ever having followed it. Rather than treating people with the blind eyes of justice, we treat them according to arbitrary principles of fairness and leveraged inequality.

There are plenty of ways in which taxation can be made to fulfill the fundamental principles of justice and equality under the law, so I'll leave that for another thread.

This thread is about addressing the method by which the US has enacted its social programs. For these programs to treat all citizens equally under the law, they must be available to everyone without regard for race, color, creed, wealth, income, marital status, or anything else. It is contrary to justice to charge someone for a service that they cannot access because of their income level, rendering the program nothing more than wealth redistribution.

For example, I paid taxes for Medicaid while I was a grad student living below the poverty line, but I did not have access to Medicaid because of my status as a student. I was paying for a service for someone else, period. The little money I had was taken from me and used to pay for someone else to receive a service. That is nothing more than wealth redistribution. The same argument holds for wealthy individuals paying for Medicaid or any other social program.

There are two just solutions to this problem. One is to scrap all of the social programs outright. The other is to offer the programs to everyone equally. Which solution is correct depends on whether the fundamental "right" the program supposedly protects is deemed a protected right by society. Is healthcare a right? If so, government is obliged to cover it for all its citizens to an equal degree, whatever that degree might be. Is "peace of mind" a right? If so, government can only treat its citizens equally by offering all citizens the same degree of protection of that right. Individuals would still be free to go over and above the level of protection government provides.

Perhaps by framing elections in terms of rights rather than positions is a better way to approach the whole idea of political compromise. It is well known that position-based negotiation leads to the type of shenanigans we just witnessed regarding the debt ceiling bill. However, if negotiations instead focus on the underlying issues of each party, real compromise can be achieved without either party losing face. For example, if one party can cede that "peace of mind" is not really a right, then the other might be willing to cede that healthcare is, even if only to an extent.

In any case, it should be clear to everyone that we cannot absolutely protect every right that people think they ought to have simply due to financial constraints. As the financial constraint is lessened due to continuing economic growth, the list of rights society chooses to protect, as well as the degree of that protection, may grow accordingly. A corollary of this approach is that, when the economic constraint contracts for whatever reason, the protections must similarly contract unless the protections are not currently financially constrained (when has this happened?).

Anyway, just some thoughts I had that might frame a path for debate with common ground between libertarians and progressives.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
There is no common ground between "we know what's better for you than you do" progressivism and "I know what's better for me than a bureaucrat does" libertarianism. They are, by definition, complete opposites.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
There is no common ground between "we know what's better for you than you do" progressivism and "I know what's better for me than a bureaucrat does" libertarianism. They are, by definition, complete opposites.
This. Progressives have less common ground with libertarians than with conservatives even, who are at least amenable to big government.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
First, libertarians who belong to the tea party are aligned with absolute fucking retards.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2011/04/tea-partiers-dont-like-medicaid-medicare-cuts

The government-blasting Tea Party doesn't want any changes to two of the government's biggest programs. The vast majority of Tea Party supporters - 70% - oppose cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, a new McClatchy-Marist poll found."

Second, the non-tea party libertarians are such a small percentage of the US population that who gives a flying fuck.

So no, there's no common ground. The tea party has pretty much said fuck the rest of the population, they want entitlements only for themselves. All while screaming about 'big government'.

This isn't about 'big government' vs 'small government' anymore, it's about old greedy shitheads (aka the tea party movement, aka a significant portion of the boomers, aka the 'fuck you got mine' party) versus everyone else.
 
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Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
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I used to think there was reasonable overlap between Libertarians and Liberals, but now I'm not so sure. The problem, from my liberal point of view, isn't "libertarian" ideas so much as it is Libertarians themselves.

If you think about it, there should be significant overlap between liberals and libertarians on many equality issues like gay marriage, religious freedom, various civil liberties issues, etc. Yet it seems like the majority of people who call themselves Libertarians not only ignore these issues in favor of economic concerns (as you did in the OP), a lot of them are actively hostile to liberal views on these issues or ally themselves with people who are.

Since agreement on social issues seems off the table for the time being, all we're left with is economic issues. And there's another problem for me at least, because the Libertarian point of view on most economic issues is hard to find common ground with. It's not about the size of government so much as it is about the "morality" of government spending at all. According to your post, Libertarians believe that ANY government spending that is applied unequally is inherently "redistributive" and therefore wrong. As a liberal who thinks one of the roles of government is to provide some level of help to people who need it, that's kind of a sticking point for me. You use the word "arbitrary" to describe unequally applied programs, but to me it seems even more arbitrary if we try to apply helpful programs equally whether people need them or not. And beyond that, I've never been a major fan of complaining that I don't benefit directly from every dollar of taxes I pay, so I have a hard time getting on board with the central point of Libertarians.

That said, I think there IS potential for common ground if liberals and libertarians are willing to see past the hard and fast rules we've set. Liberals at their heart want fair and equal treatment for people, so maybe libertarians can sell them on government spending changes on those grounds. And libertarians are very big on government butting out and equal protection, so maybe liberals can get them on board with supporting social issues.

It's hard to say though. Libertarians seem to be unfortunately part of the right-wing in this country, and I have a feeling it's going to stay that way for a while.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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I think you've all missed the point I was trying to make, so it must be the way I phrased it. Given that both libertarians and progressives exist in a given society, I'm trying to achieve a way for both sides to at least see where the other side is coming from and allow some sort of rational discourse rather than the typical nonsense we've been seeing. I'm trying to speak in generalities rather than addressing the insanity that some people on each side stake out in the current "debate," looking at the way things should be so we could at least consider moving in that direction.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
There is no common ground between "we know what's better for you than you do" progressivism and "I know what's better for me than a bureaucrat does" libertarianism. They are, by definition, complete opposites.

Well yes, the comparison becomes easy when you take the most cartoonishly simplified version of each...

Here in the real world though, not all libertarians are Ayn Rand worshiping jackwaggons, and not all liberals are dirty communists. In fact, hardly any of them are...
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
I think you've all missed the point I was trying to make, so it must be the way I phrased it. Given that both libertarians and progressives exist in a given society, I'm trying to achieve a way for both sides to at least see where the other side is coming from and allow some sort of rational discourse rather than the typical nonsense we've been seeing. I'm trying to speak in generalities rather than addressing the insanity that some people on each side stake out in the current "debate," looking at the way things should be so we could at least consider moving in that direction.

Who gives a flying fuck what common ground is between liberals and libertarians? "Tea Party" libertarians are a complete contradiction of what you posted: They want government programs only for THEMSELVES (everything else is 'big government socialism').
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
I thought that ending the war on drugs and strengthening the 4th amendment protections were common ground between Liberals and Liberterians.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
136
Libertarians are like your crazy uncle. Yeah, you have to invite him to Thanksgiving but you hope he passes out before causing too much disruption.

Libertarians and anarachists are much closer to each other, despite what each thinks of the other. Both want to eliminate regulation and governmental oversight and rely instead upon a voluntrary universal adherance to the golden rule.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
I thought that ending the war on drugs and strengthening the 4th amendment protections were common ground between Liberals and Liberterians.

That was basically what I was getting at. I think there SHOULD be some common ground, but modern Libertarians are almost entirely about the economic issues where they disagree with liberals. At least that's the public perception. I'm sure there are Libertarians who think the anti-gay marriage movement is retarded too, but I don't see that as a national level Libertarian issue.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I used to think there was reasonable overlap between Libertarians and Liberals, but now I'm not so sure. The problem, from my liberal point of view, isn't "libertarian" ideas so much as it is Libertarians themselves.

If you think about it, there should be significant overlap between liberals and libertarians on many equality issues like gay marriage, religious freedom, various civil liberties issues, etc. Yet it seems like the majority of people who call themselves Libertarians not only ignore these issues in favor of economic concerns (as you did in the OP), a lot of them are actively hostile to liberal views on these issues or ally themselves with people who are.
Right now, these issues have generally taken a back seat, but I agree with you that this is something that will need to be addressed in the near future.
Since agreement on social issues seems off the table for the time being, all we're left with is economic issues. And there's another problem for me at least, because the Libertarian point of view on most economic issues is hard to find common ground with. It's not about the size of government so much as it is about the "morality" of government spending at all. According to your post, Libertarians believe that ANY government spending that is applied unequally is inherently "redistributive" and therefore wrong. As a liberal who thinks one of the roles of government is to provide some level of help to people who need it, that's kind of a sticking point for me. You use the word "arbitrary" to describe unequally applied programs, but to me it seems even more arbitrary if we try to apply helpful programs equally whether people need them or not. And beyond that, I've never been a major fan of complaining that I don't benefit directly from every dollar of taxes I pay, so I have a hard time getting on board with the central point of Libertarians.
These programs ARE inherently redistributive as they exist now - that's not even a question. Tax dollars go directly to pay for someone else's benefits. Qualification for these benefits relies on inherently arbitrary criteria: you make less than $x per year, you're over age y, you aren't a student, you belong to minority group z, you live in state s, or whatever it happens to be. These same issues arise in the tax code, where it's possible to net more money by earning less in some cases, just as it's possible to come out ahead using government programs rather than working to earn above the threshold level. Thus, these policies are arbitrary, redistributive, and often counterproductive when they act as disincentives.

Regarding your definition of "liberal" as seeing government as an entity which provides help for people who need it: how do you decide who needs help? Everyone needs help all the time. Bill Gates could do better if you helped him more, as could the homeless guy. How do you decide who to help? What criteria do you use to decide who to help, and to what degree is government supposed to help? These are the fundamental questions I was trying to pose in the OP. If government becomes a vehicle for raising everyone above some minimum standard of living, then, in terms of the OP, we have essentially declared that that minimum standard of living is a right which the government exists to protect. Hopefully that makes sense.
That said, I think there IS potential for common ground if liberals and libertarians are willing to see past the hard and fast rules we've set. Liberals at their heart want fair and equal treatment for people, so maybe libertarians can sell them on government spending changes on those grounds. And libertarians are very big on government butting out and equal protection, so maybe liberals can get them on board with supporting social issues.

It's hard to say though. Libertarians seem to be unfortunately part of the right-wing in this country, and I have a feeling it's going to stay that way for a while.
Agreed. I think the libertarians (small L) are a small minority here and that the Libertarians are largely Republicans in sheep's clothing.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
I thought that ending the war on drugs and strengthening the 4th amendment protections were common ground between Liberals and Liberterians.

Well yes, the comparison becomes easy when you take the most cartoonishly simplified version of each...

Here in the real world though, not all libertarians are Ayn Rand worshiping jackwaggons, and not all liberals are dirty communists. In fact, hardly any of them are...

The OP didn't ask about common ground between liberals and libertarians. In that regard there are some (e.g. discord between fiscal conservatives and religious conservatives). The OP specifically stated progressivism, distinct from liberalism. Progressivism = early 20th century movement to create a modern day ruling elite (e.g. Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Chamberlain, Mussolini, Hiter, et. al.)
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Who gives a flying fuck what common ground is between liberals and libertarians? "Tea Party" libertarians are a complete contradiction of what you posted: They want government programs only for THEMSELVES (everything else is 'big government socialism').

Where did this narrative, that the Tea Party is only in favor of cutting government programs of democrats, but not republicans, start? I've only heard it a couple of times so I guess it's new. Is this from the DU or huffington post?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Where did this narrative, that the Tea Party is only in favor of cutting government programs of democrats, but not republicans, start? I've only heard it a couple of times so I guess it's new. Is this from the DU or huffington post?

Are you blind/retarded?

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2011/04/tea-partiers-dont-like-medicaid-medicare-cuts

The government-blasting Tea Party doesn't want any changes to two of the government's biggest programs. The vast majority of Tea Party supporters - 70% - oppose cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, a new McClatchy-Marist poll found."

"GUBMINT BETTER NOT TOUCH MY MEDICARE" <-- This slogan pretty much sums up what the majority of the tea party is about.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2011/04/tea-partiers-dont-like-medicaid-medicare-cuts

Another fun fact, a majority of Tea Partiers are also against free trade.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39407846

While 65 percent of union members say free trade has hurt the U.S., so do 61 percent of Tea Party sympathizers. Democratic pollster Peter Hart and his Republican counterpart Bill McInturff, who conduct the NBC/WSJ poll, say the greatest shift against free trade has come among relatively affluent Americans, or those earning more than $75,000 a year.

The tea party is an incoherent and hypocritical movement. They have no real beliefs.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I used to think there was reasonable overlap between Libertarians and Liberals, but now I'm not so sure. The problem, from my liberal point of view, isn't "libertarian" ideas so much as it is Libertarians themselves.

If you think about it, there should be significant overlap between liberals and libertarians on many equality issues like gay marriage, religious freedom, various civil liberties issues, etc. Yet it seems like the majority of people who call themselves Libertarians not only ignore these issues in favor of economic concerns (as you did in the OP), a lot of them are actively hostile to liberal views on these issues or ally themselves with people who are.

Since agreement on social issues seems off the table for the time being, all we're left with is economic issues. And there's another problem for me at least, because the Libertarian point of view on most economic issues is hard to find common ground with. It's not about the size of government so much as it is about the "morality" of government spending at all. According to your post, Libertarians believe that ANY government spending that is applied unequally is inherently "redistributive" and therefore wrong. As a liberal who thinks one of the roles of government is to provide some level of help to people who need it, that's kind of a sticking point for me. You use the word "arbitrary" to describe unequally applied programs, but to me it seems even more arbitrary if we try to apply helpful programs equally whether people need them or not. And beyond that, I've never been a major fan of complaining that I don't benefit directly from every dollar of taxes I pay, so I have a hard time getting on board with the central point of Libertarians.

That said, I think there IS potential for common ground if liberals and libertarians are willing to see past the hard and fast rules we've set. Liberals at their heart want fair and equal treatment for people, so maybe libertarians can sell them on government spending changes on those grounds. And libertarians are very big on government butting out and equal protection, so maybe liberals can get them on board with supporting social issues.

It's hard to say though. Libertarians seem to be unfortunately part of the right-wing in this country, and I have a feeling it's going to stay that way for a while.
I think this is because so many modern liberals are actually progressives. Libertarians and liberals have many values in common. However, progressives' liberties are entitlements, which must be paid for by bigger government. When the liberal concept of freedom as a lack of external constraints morphed into the progressive concept of freedom as a lack of unfilled basic needs, it inevitably diverged from the libertarian ideal.

As long as you feel that government's role is to decide who needs wealth and then take it from those who "don't need it" and redistribute it, you'll never have anything significant in common with libertarians. That requires an all-powerful government with an absolute moral right to every dollar, regardless of who earned it. And that's as far from libertarian as it is possible to get. Even conservatives who think gay behavior should not be allowed in public aren't THAT far from libertarianism.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Are you blind/retarded?

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2011/04/tea-partiers-dont-like-medicaid-medicare-cuts



"GUBMINT BETTER NOT TOUCH MY MEDICARE" <-- This slogan pretty much sums up what the majority of the tea party is about.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2011/04/tea-partiers-dont-like-medicaid-medicare-cuts

Another fun fact, a majority of Tea Partiers are also against free trade.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39407846

Ok so you're basing your narrative on one liberal opinion article and one democrat pollster. Not the stated positions or voting records of the actual tea-party representatives. Check.

The tea party is an incoherent and hypocritical movement. They have no real beliefs.

Confused much? We're talking about the tea party here, not the "I voted for it before I voted against it" democrat party.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Ok so you're basing your narrative on one liberal opinion article and one democrat pollster. Not the stated positions or voting records of the actual tea-party representatives. Check.



Confused much? We're talking about the tea party here, not the "I voted for it before I voted against it" democrat party.

Yes... liberal opinion... democrat pollster:

Democratic pollster Peter Hart and his Republican counterpart Bill McInturff, who conduct the NBC/WSJ poll

LIBERAL... MEDIA... BIAS

Again, are you blind/retarded?
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Who gives a flying fuck what common ground is between liberals and libertarians? "Tea Party" libertarians are a complete contradiction of what you posted: They want government programs only for THEMSELVES (everything else is 'big government socialism').
No one except you is retarded enough to make this thread about the Tea Party, so shut the hell up and leave if you can't discuss the actual topic at hand.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
No one except you is retarded enough to make this thread about the Tea Party, so shut the hell up and leave if you can't discuss the actual topic at hand.

You're a complete idiot if you don't think the Tea Party is a significant part of who/what you're talking about. You're trying to find common ground among two groups, one of who you're wildly misinterpreting what they really want.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
You're a complete idiot if you don't think the Tea Party is a significant part of who/what you're talking about. You're trying to find common ground among two groups, one of who you're wildly misinterpreting what they really want.
I don't give a rat's ass what the Tea Party wants any more than I care what Democrats or Republicans want. Either discuss what this thread is above or shove off.
 
May 11, 2008
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...
For example, I paid taxes for Medicaid while I was a grad student living below the poverty line, but I did not have access to Medicaid because of my status as a student. I was paying for a service for someone else, period. The little money I had was taken from me and used to pay for someone else to receive a service. That is nothing more than wealth redistribution. The same argument holds for wealthy individuals paying for Medicaid or any other social program.

...
To be honest, i have no idea how this system works (Is it nation wide or does it vary between states ?) IIRC laws seem to vary from state to state yes ?

But is there not an income limit to determine who will receive social benefits and who not ? That when you are below a certain average fiscal income (for a fiscal year), that you are entitled to receive medical aid even when you have work or are a student ?
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Liberals are just libertarians who want a safety net to go with their liberties.