Combined roadmaps for Broadwell and Haswell Refresh

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SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
0
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Intel shuffling more desktop users to the enthusiast platform? I don't think so. Are you going to pay the extra $$$ for the same performance in most desktop loads and gaming?

All that's going to happen is more people stick with their SB and onwards quads. Sandy Bridge truly was the last great desktop architecture.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Intel shuffling more desktop users to the enthusiast platform? I don't think so. Are you going to pay the extra $$$ for the same performance in most desktop loads and gaming?

All that's going to happen is more people stick with their SB and onwards quads. Sandy Bridge truly was the last great desktop architecture.

Ironic because SNB was first and foremost a mobile focused architecture :)

I don't think it was Sandy Bridge, I think it was the fact that Intel's 32nm HKMG was a process node built like a tank that could take the abuse of 1.5V OC's needed to push SB to 5GHz without killing the chip from degradation or sudden death syndrome.

Sandy Bridge the microarchitecture really is a great architecture for being a power-miser that sips the watts when it is clocked where it was intended to clock. Ivy Bridge shows us this.

But what Ivy Bridge doesn't have going for it is a 22nm node that was built like a tank like 32nm was. Instead 22nm was built to be dainty and enable all sorts of magical sub-10W SKUs for the tablet and phone form-factors. Push on the voltage as needed to get the clockspeeds out of a 3770K and suddenly your temperatures and power-consumption go to 11.

IMO Sandy Bridge the CPU product (like my 2600K) is only viewed as being great compared to its successors not because of its microarchitecture but because of the underlying process node (32nm 2nd gen HKMG).
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
I don't think it was Sandy Bridge, I think it was the fact that Intel's 32nm HKMG was a process node built like a tank that could take the abuse of 1.5V OC's needed to push SB to 5GHz without killing the chip from degradation or sudden death syndrome.

Sandy Bridge the microarchitecture really is a great architecture for being a power-miser that sips the watts when it is clocked where it was intended to clock. Ivy Bridge shows us this.

But what Ivy Bridge doesn't have going for it is a 22nm node that was built like a tank like 32nm was. Instead 22nm was built to be dainty and enable all sorts of magical sub-10W SKUs for the tablet and phone form-factors. Push on the voltage as needed to get the clockspeeds out of a 3770K and suddenly your temperatures and power-consumption go to 11.

IMO Sandy Bridge the CPU product (like my 2600K) is only viewed as being great compared to its successors not because of its microarchitecture but because of the underlying process node (32nm 2nd gen HKMG).

(Bolding the part I'm commenting on.)

Not to make this sound like just another vapid, "I agree with you post," but I do wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. As my interest in all-things-gaming related has shifted from GPUs to CPUs over the last few years, I've begun to realize that with all architectures, the home is only as good as the foundation it's laid on. I remember being blown away by my roommate's Nehalem based Core i7-920 when it was first released, but Intel gave us another "Core2 moment" with the release of Sandy Bridge. Thanks largely in part to the underlying 2nd gen 32nm HKMG process as you described above, Sandy Bridge gave us nice improvements in efficiency, clock speeds, and IPC, which combined blew the doors off an already great CPU architecture. It was like Intel opening up a new restaurant down the road and beating everyone in price, convenience, and quality all at once.

I also want to comment on the 22nm part too. It wouldn't surprise me if Intel's corporate culture is likely similar to that of Microsoft. When you lack real competitors, what do you do? Where do you go? That's not to say that either company releases bad products or stop pushing boundaries where possible, but companies that make it to the top tend to adopt more conservative approaches to product development to protect the assets that they already have. Basically what I'm saying is that companies become more "reactive" in nature.

Intel got beaten by ARM in the ULP mobile category, and Intel is now reacting.

And that changes the foundation in which their products are made from. As we both know, you can't make a process node that excels in both high power and low power applications at the same time. And from my understanding, it's easier (and cheaper) to develop a low power process node than it is to develop a good, low leakage high performing one. It's a shame that we probably won't see another tank-like 2nd gen 32nm HKMG node equivalent come out of Intel ever again, but given the economics of where the market is going, are we surprised?

I also look back to an article I read in PC Gamer while I was in high school back in the late 90's. The article stated that one day, the CPU and the GPU would ultimately be combined into the same package, and I thought to myself, "Well where's the fun in that?" What I didn't realize at the time was that GPUs would ultimately become more much, much more versatile, more capable, and that programmers would utilize this added functionality to both enhance and accelerate the programs that they created. I don't know about you guys, but I'm streaming 1080p Starcraft 2 from TwitchTV on my second monitor and have another tab open from when was searching for Baskin Robbins on Google maps earlier when my sister wanted ice cream. This, obviously, is a highly trivial task for any modern computer to do these days, but when I read that article in PC Gamer years ago, that definitely wasn't the case.

How I lived this long without Starcraft 2 I haven't a clue.

So that begs the question, is the trend for Intel necessarily a bad thing? If Intel manages to "hold the line" in clockspeeds with all architectures/process nodes moving forward while all along vastly improving the low end, then I can't really see that as a bad thing. Sure, it'll mean we won't see another Sandy Bridge-like architectural release for a long, long while at the high end, but it doesn't stop programmers from pushing boundaries with current hardware. Yes, it'll make things that we've enjoyed in the past like overclocking largely unexciting (or worse, impossible), but there's bound to be benefits that maybe we haven't realized yet.

Like Starcraft 2... we could always use more hidden gems like Starcraft 2...

In the end, I think we'll see a product from Intel that we can all agree on is much better than what's available out there now. It just may not what we've been accustomed to having these last 10 years. Sometimes change isn't a bad thing.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,362
136
Besides which, who cares? Haswell-E is being released next year with 8C as a baseline, and Intel will also be shuffling more "desktop" users to the enthusiast platform. This makes sense considering the direction of the market towards mobile devices. If you look closely at Intel's roadmaps, you'll find that fewer chips will be released on the "mainstream" platform while the price points of entry for the enthusiast platform will be lowering - consider that the 4820 hexa core CPU will be a fully unlocked "K" SKU and has a price range under 300$. Intel will likely be moving more of us over to the E platform and as far as i'm concerned, i'm okay with that - especially considering the prices for it will be lowering.

Ehm, where did you see that ??
 

skipsneeky2

Diamond Member
May 21, 2011
5,035
1
71
Just can't stop staring at that sata express picture and actually attempting to figure out just how such a connector or the concept benefits the user or hell its function or its benefit over a standard sata 6 port.

Is it just using the pci-e slot just to maximize basically the performance of sata 6 and perhaps even sata 12 if such a thing is to be here soon?

Found myself tilting my head at that picture like a dog who looks confused when you ask it if it wants to go outside,someone help me out here lol.:biggrin:
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
It does beg the question if SATA Express is the right route. Specially when SAS is already at 12Gb/s.

http://www.lsi.com/solutions/Pages/12GBS.aspx

And you take up 2 SATA ports for a single SATA Express link.

mSATA style SSDs will also be twice as fast as cable based with support of up to x4 on their Express socket. In my view they should simply have kept the Express on that socket. So you had SATA 12gbps cable based devices and SATA EXpress x4 on plugin devices.
 
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meloz

Senior member
Jul 8, 2008
320
0
76
For whatever reasons, the industry seems determined to maintain SAS and SATA into two different segments. If everyone in the consumer space adopted SAS, I doubt it would cost any worse than SATA to implement. Sheer volumes would overcome any intial cost disadvantage.

Maybe there is some hidden royalty issue with SAS? Some patent issue? Or Maybe the interests of storage manufacturers and PC industry are served better by this kind of bifurcation: they can charge dramatically higher prices for "enterprise" SAS drives even when their mechanical and firmware quality -not to mention manufacturing costs- might be identical to SATA drives.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
16,948
7,369
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mSATA style SSDs will also be twice as fast as cable based with support of up to x4 on their Express socket. In my view they should simply have kept the Express on that socket. So you had SATA 12gbps cable based devices and SATA EXpress x4 on plugin devices.

It'll take some time before drives can hit 2 GB/sec, and perhaps by then they will increase SATA Express to 4 GB.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,203
3,836
136
What is i7-4771? A higher clocked 4700 like 2700k to 2600k?
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
What is i7-4771? A higher clocked 4700 like 2700k to 2600k?

It is similar to the 4770 (non-K) but 100mhz higher turbo, and may have a better graphical part? Not entirely sure yet.....I don't believe intel has released full details on it. But I do not believe it to be an unlocked K SKU.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
For whatever reasons, the industry seems determined to maintain SAS and SATA into two different segments. If everyone in the consumer space adopted SAS, I doubt it would cost any worse than SATA to implement. Sheer volumes would overcome any intial cost disadvantage.

Maybe there is some hidden royalty issue with SAS? Some patent issue? Or Maybe the interests of storage manufacturers and PC industry are served better by this kind of bifurcation: they can charge dramatically higher prices for "enterprise" SAS drives even when their mechanical and firmware quality -not to mention manufacturing costs- might be identical to SATA drives.

It won't happen for the same reason that ATA and SCSI never merged into a single seamless upgrade path.

The price premium of SAS, just as it was for SCSI, has little to do with its cost and everything to do with "margin protection" and expectations.

Why does a 2S or 4S XEON processor cost 4x the price its comparably clocked 1S variant? Really nothing more than margins. Look at Tesla pricing versus their equivalent consumer-grade GPUs. That pricing differential is not due to the incrementally higher production cost or smaller market volumes, it is solely due to the fact that they can charge that much for them and in that industry those prices are expected and accepted.

There are two standards, SATA and SAS, because the enterprise industry dare not consolidate to a single standard as then they won't be able to defend or legitimize the extreme pricing disparity that exists between enterprise and consumer "grade" products.

There is a HUGE business that depends on the existing pricing differential. If that were to collapse then you'd see businesses going bankrupt and tens of thousands of people being laid off as the cash flow would simply no longer exist.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,695
2,294
146
I wish I could get more excited about anything presented here. There must be something wrong with me, because it all seems so terribly pedestrian.

Until Haswell-E, it looks like either 4670K, 4770K or a pricey and probably disappointing IB-E for us enthusiasts. Yay.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,587
10,225
126
Just can't stop staring at that sata express picture and actually attempting to figure out just how such a connector or the concept benefits the user or hell its function or its benefit over a standard sata 6 port.
And here I thought that SATA express would keep the physical form-factor of existing SATA cables and connectors, and just run PCI-Express signalling over them. What that picture depicts, is a backwards-compatibility abomination.

What about enthusiast boards, that have the SATA ports angled 90 degrees?

What a mess! (And see the second connector, that is NOT SATA backwards-compatible. Why even bother with the dual-SATA-like form factor if they are going to be eventually not backwards-compatible anyways.

What was wrong with adopting the physical-layer standards from SAS 3.0 (12Gbit/sec),
and releasing SATA 4.0, at 12Gbit/sec?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
What was wrong with adopting the physical-layer standards from SAS 3.0 (12Gbit/sec),
and releasing SATA 4.0, at 12Gbit/sec?

SAS = Serial attached SCSI

Now how does SATA compare to SAS?

SATA is marketed as a general-purpose successor to parallel ATA and has become common in the consumer market, whereas the more-expensive SAS targets critical server applications.

In short, the answer to your question is "money".

Any business currently invested in the SAS industry is not going to be interested in seeing a low-cost consumer version cannibalize their enterprise sales and devalue the brand.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,203
3,836
136
It is similar to the 4770 (non-K) but 100mhz higher turbo, and may have a better graphical part? Not entirely sure yet.....I don't believe intel has released full details on it. But I do not believe it to be an unlocked K SKU.


If the 4771 turbo's 100MHz higher than the 4770 and considering the lower overclock of the Haswell K, then there is even less reason to consider the K.

Why pay more for the K, lose features and maybe gain 200MHz?
I think I'm out of the K game.
 

ehume

Golden Member
Nov 6, 2009
1,511
73
91
I'm not going to be too worried about missing the 22nm Broadwell on the Desktop. After all, we skipped 32nm Westmere, and went from the 45nm Nehalem/Lynnfield to 32nm Sandy Bridge.

Instead, I'm looking forward next year to Haswell-E -- if it is soldered and not TIM'd to its IHS. Right now I'm thermal-limited, not stability-limited. A soldered Haswell would gain a few MHz, maybe have a few new features, and would arrive at about the right time.
 

MisterMac

Senior member
Sep 16, 2011
777
0
0
It won't happen for the same reason that ATA and SCSI never merged into a single seamless upgrade path.

The price premium of SAS, just as it was for SCSI, has little to do with its cost and everything to do with "margin protection" and expectations.

Why does a 2S or 4S XEON processor cost 4x the price its comparably clocked 1S variant? Really nothing more than margins. Look at Tesla pricing versus their equivalent consumer-grade GPUs. That pricing differential is not due to the incrementally higher production cost or smaller market volumes, it is solely due to the fact that they can charge that much for them and in that industry those prices are expected and accepted.

There are two standards, SATA and SAS, because the enterprise industry dare not consolidate to a single standard as then they won't be able to defend or legitimize the extreme pricing disparity that exists between enterprise and consumer "grade" products.

There is a HUGE business that depends on the existing pricing differential. If that were to collapse then you'd see businesses going bankrupt and tens of thousands of people being laid off as the cash flow would simply no longer exist.


Yea... no way too generalizing all technology markets in a B2B vs B2C sense here.

You are smart enough to realize the validation efforts into a 4S or 2S proc - is FAR MORE extensive than i7 variant.

Same as Quadro\Tesla get AMAZING driver support and with extensive support for it's users.


They're essentially paying for extra time in creating a more stable and carefully groomed product that includes a "failsafe" if shit happens in terms of support and warranty.

I'd expect the same parallelism on SAS - and that it atleast initially we're considered more stable - or gave more enterprise value.
(I'm not that into the HD market in the enterprise world, so extrapolation warning!).

I geuss you could argue with SATA3 and other things coming - that the age of some exclusive branded bus port is dying unless there's serious significant delta of reliability between them.