Columbus day parade. Italians honoring Columbus, or a spit in your eye insult to native Americans?

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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: teddyv

Did you even read that link? It does not address the two points raised above, nor does it mention genocide, bringing dogs to torment the natives, or any other of your odd assertions.

EDIT - it does state "Although he returned to Spain in
chains in 1500 after his third voyage, the King and Queen
apologized for the misunderstanding and had them removed." A rather minor inconsistency (whether they were on during the trip or applied upon his arrival) considering the remainder of the sentence refutes your initial assertion.

Yeah, but you disputed whether he went back in chains. Whether he was released because they thought it was a mistake or not us up to history writers. It took 6 weeks for him and his brothers to be released according to Wikipedia.

Odd assertions?? Are you just really brainwashed by your elementary school teacher who only told you warm and fuzzy tales of adventure?

You can`t honestly believe that wikipedia is 100% accurate...lolol....swamp land....
 

glutenberg

Golden Member
Sep 2, 2004
1,942
0
0
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: soonerproud
Originally posted by: torpid
Try again. It was well established that the earth was not flat. Ancient greek scholars knew this even. Virtually every sailor knew this. Columbus believed he could navigate around the globe because he thought it was smaller than it really is. Columbus used erroneous interpretations and map readings to calculate the circumference of the earth at about 25,000 km. In reality it was 40,000 km which was pretty well established at the time, and likely no ship's crew would survive a journey to the far east from europe if there hadn't been a western hemisphere which he then incorrectly assumed was his destination.

You try again.

What was established in Greek culture was lost at this time and was being rediscovered. It was accepted at the time that the Earth was flat by most scientist and church leaders. Sailors of Europe at the time even accepted the Earth was flat and that you would fall off the edge if you traveled too far west. You really need to go back and study the Middle Ages, The Reformation and the influence of the Church on science and every other part of European society at the time. This was very early in The Reformation and many Middle Ages beliefs were still wide spread and were Church dogma. Scientist who challenged the Church at the time suffered severely for challenging dogma.

That is almost entirely rubbish.

Check Here or just about any other source on "flat earth" or "christopher columbus"

He did not prove a thing to any scholars or even theologians relating to the nature of the earth, except that his calculations, which were disputed by the queen's experts (correctly so), were incorrect.

Ouch. Snoped.
 

soonerproud

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2007
1,874
0
0
Originally posted by: torpid
That is almost entirely rubbish.

Check Here or just about any other source on "flat earth" or "christopher columbus"

He did not prove a thing to any scholars or even theologians relating to the nature of the earth, except that his calculations, which were disputed by the queen's experts (correctly so), were incorrect.

Hmm, A link from a Christian apologist. Of course Christians are going to dispute the Catholic Church ever taught the Flat Earth theory. I can also find links that say other wise.

Link

Did you know that Galileo was tried by the Church for challenging this theory and that the Earth was not the center of the universe? I guess you conveniently forgot that part of history, but oh well.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
I consider it an affront to my Scandinavian heritage!

While Scandinavians discovered it first, they didn't return or spread the information around, like Columbus did.

I have Swedish ancestry myself, but for all their courage the Vikings didn't impact history with their discovery of North America. Its a lot like Da Vinci. The man was a genius and way ahead of his time, inventing many useful and brilliant inventions. But totally irrelevant in historical context because no one knew about them. At the time, if people had known about some of them, he'd have been burned as a heretic, but thats a different story.
 

glutenberg

Golden Member
Sep 2, 2004
1,942
0
0
Originally posted by: soonerproud
Originally posted by: torpid
That is almost entirely rubbish.

Check Here or just about any other source on "flat earth" or "christopher columbus"

He did not prove a thing to any scholars or even theologians relating to the nature of the earth, except that his calculations, which were disputed by the queen's experts (correctly so), were incorrect.

Hmm, A link from a Christian apologist. Of course Christians are going to dispute the Catholic Church ever taught the Flat Earth theory. I can also find links that say other wise.

Link

Did you know that Galileo was tried by the Church for challenging this theory and that the Earth was not the center of the universe? I guess you conveniently forgot that part of history, but oh well.

The geocentric system is not the equivalent of the flat earth theory. I fail to see where you've disproved anything other than using an ad hominem (usually the first sign of a flawed argument) on the author of a book.
 

soonerproud

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2007
1,874
0
0
Originally posted by: glutenberg
The geocentric system is not the equivalent of the flat earth theory. I fail to see where you've disproved anything other than using an ad hominem (usually the first sign of a flawed argument) on the author of a book.

I do not see where any of you guys have proved that Columbus was an idiot. An idiot does not put together a crew and secure financing from the Queen for an exploration that no one knows for certain is even possible. An idiot does not make a successful voyage half way around the world and return with proof that they succeeded. Your arguments have been flawed from the start and I am simply copying your tactics to show how ridiculous they are.

 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
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Originally posted by: soonerproud
Originally posted by: torpid
That is almost entirely rubbish.

Check Here or just about any other source on "flat earth" or "christopher columbus"

He did not prove a thing to any scholars or even theologians relating to the nature of the earth, except that his calculations, which were disputed by the queen's experts (correctly so), were incorrect.

Hmm, A link from a Christian apologist. Of course Christians are going to dispute the Catholic Church ever taught the Flat Earth theory. I can also find links that say other wise.

Link

Did you know that Galileo was tried by the Church for challenging this theory and that the Earth was not the center of the universe? I guess you conveniently forgot that part of history, but oh well.

He's not a christian apologist, he's a historian who studies christianity and many other things. The quote is posted on a "christian science" site but can be found in numerous other places. He's a professor at UCSB.

Your link appears to agree with me. First, the updated version of that very article notes the inaccuracies of it, and the author of the site qualifies the content as being a direct quote from an inaccurate source. Then there's the fact that the author of that site directly recommends two books that disagree with the columbus myth you are offering. (For example, check the excerpt from "Not So! Popular myths about america columbus to clinton"
 

glutenberg

Golden Member
Sep 2, 2004
1,942
0
0
Originally posted by: soonerproud
Originally posted by: glutenberg
The geocentric system is not the equivalent of the flat earth theory. I fail to see where you've disproved anything other than using an ad hominem (usually the first sign of a flawed argument) on the author of a book.

I do not see where any of you guys have proved that Columbus was an idiot. An idiot does not put together a crew and secure financing from the Queen for an exploration that no one knows for certain is even possible. An idiot does not make a successful voyage half way around the world and return with proof that they succeeded. Your arguments have been flawed from the start and I am simply copying your tactics to show how ridiculous they are.

It's been proven throughout this thread that he used faulty measurements estimating that he would sail to Asia. There's no evidence that securing financing for the operation was a difficult task and if it's comparable to other instances of funding it's more of a salesman's game than an intellect's. Essentially the arguments here have been that he got lucky that he hit land or he would've been dead and we wouldn't be celebrating anything.
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
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Originally posted by: soonerproud
Originally posted by: glutenberg
The geocentric system is not the equivalent of the flat earth theory. I fail to see where you've disproved anything other than using an ad hominem (usually the first sign of a flawed argument) on the author of a book.

I do not see where any of you guys have proved that Columbus was an idiot. An idiot does not put together a crew and secure financing from the Queen for an exploration that no one knows for certain is even possible. An idiot does not make a successful voyage half way around the world and return with proof that they succeeded. Your arguments have been flawed from the start and I am simply copying your tactics to show how ridiculous they are.

He made a voyage halfway across the world intending to go ALL the way around the world. He used incorrect interpretations to determine the circumference of the globe and was grossly inaccurate, far more inaccurate than scholars from 1500 years ago. Two countries (portugal and italy) rejected his plans because they were obviously erroneous. He lied to his sponsors about great wealth that he never found and was stripped of his titles as a result. He enslaved the natives against the express policies of the queen because he believed it would be profitable, and profitted little and greatly enraged the local populace as a result. Despite obvious evidence to the contrary, he died still believing he had succeeded in finding a route to india and even tried to locate the indian ocean on the final voyage.

He did do one smart thing, and that was use an almanac to note an upcoming eclipse, and tricked natives into believing he was causing it as punishment.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,246
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Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Columbus had nothing to do with slaughtering indians.


True ... he also had nothing to do with "discovering" America.

 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,219
8
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Originally posted by: Captante
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
Columbus had nothing to do with slaughtering indians.


True ... he also had nothing to do with "discovering" America.

"When Columbus and his men returned to Haiti in 1493, they demanded food, gold, spun cotton-whatever the Indians had that they wanted, including sex with their women. To ensure cooperation, Columbus used punishment by example. When an Indian committed even a minor offense, the Spanish cut off his ears or nose. Disfigured, the person was sent back to his village as living evidence of the brutality the Spaniards were capable of.
After a while, the Indians had had enough. At first their resistance was mostly passive. They refused to plant food for the Spanish to take. They abandoned towns near the Spanish settlements. Finally, the Arawaks fought back. Their sticks and stones were no more effective against the armed and clothed Spanish, however, than the earthlings' rifles against the aliens' death rays in War of the Worlds.

The attempts at resistance gave Columbus an excuse to make war. On March 24, 1495, he set out to conquer the Arawaks. Bartolome de Las Casas described the force Columbus assembled to put down the rebellion. "Since the Admiral perceived that daily the people of the land were taking up arms, ridiculous weapons in reality . . . he hastened to proceed to the country and disperse and subdue, by force of arms, the people of the entire island . . . For this he chose 200 foot soldiers and 20 cavalry, with many crossbows and small cannon, lances, and swords, and a still more terrible weapon against the Indians, in addition to the horses: this was 20 hunting dogs, who were turned loose and immediately tore the Indians apart." Naturally, the Spanish won. According to Kirkpatrick Sale, who quotes Ferdinand Columbus's biography of his father: "The soldiers mowed down dozens with point-blank volleys, loosed the dogs to rip open limbs and bellies, chased fleeing Indians into the bush to skewer them on sword and pike, and 'with God's aid soon gained a complete victory, killing many Indians and capturing others who were also killed.' "

Having as yet found no fields of gold, Columbus had to return some kind of dividend to Spain. In 1495 the Spanish on Haiti initiated a great slave raid. They rounded up 1,500 Arawaks, then selected the 500 best specimens (of whom 200 would die en route to Spain). Another 500 were chosen as slaves for the Spaniards staying on the island. The rest were released. A Spanish eyewitness described the event: "Among them were many women who had infants at the breast. They, in order the better to escape us, since they were afraid we would turn to catch them again, left their infants anywhere on the ground and started to flee like desperate people; and some fled so far that they were removed from our settlement of Isabela seven or eight days beyond mountains and across huge rivers; wherefore from now on scarcely any will be had." Columbus was excited. "In the name of the Holy Trinity, we can send from here all the slaves and brazil-wood which could be sold," he wrote to Ferdinand and Isabella in 1496. "In Castile, Portugal, Aragon,.. . and the Canary Islands they need many slaves, and I do not think they get enough from Guinea." He viewed the Indian death rate optimistically: "Although they die now, they will not always die. The Negroes and Canary Islanders died at first."

In the words of Hans Koning, "There now began a reign of terror in Hispaniola." Spaniards hunted Indians for sport and murdered them for dog food. Columbus, upset because he could not locate the gold he was certain was on the island, set up a tribute system. Ferdinand Columbus described how it worked: "[The Indians] all promised to pay tribute to the Catholic Sovereigns every three months, as follows: In the Cibao, where the gold mines were, every person of 14 years of age or upward was to pay a large hawk's bell of gold dust; all others were each to pay 25 pounds of cotton. Whenever an Indian delivered his tribute, he was to receive a brass or copper token which he must wear about his neck as proof that he had made his payment. Any Indian found without such a token was to be punished." With a fresh token, an Indian was safe for three months, much of which time would be devoted to collecting more gold. Columbus's son neglected to mention how the Spanish punished those whose tokens had expired: they cut off their hands.

All of these gruesome facts are available in primary source material- letters by Columbus and by other members of his expeditions-and in the work of Las Casas, the first great historian of the Americas, who relied on primary materials and helped preserve them."


TLDNR
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
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Aw man, that is depressing. Can we stick to assertions of his stupidity? That is a lot more fun.
 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,219
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Originally posted by: torpid
Aw man, that is depressing. Can we stick to assertions of his stupidity? That is a lot more fun.
"
A particularly repellent aspect of the slave trade was sexual. As soon as the 1493 expedition got to the Caribbean, before it even reached Haiti, Columbus was rewarding his lieutenants with native women to rape. On Haiti, sex slaves were one more perquisite that the Spaniards enjoyed. Columbus wrote a friend in 1500, "A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand."
"

 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: Vonkhan
I'm mad at Columbus because he made everyone get confused between Native Americans and Asian Indians by calling Native Americans Indians so when an Indian Indian says I'm Indian people think that he doesn't look like no Indian to me, maybe Mexican but not Indian.

:|

That's why you always ask, "Dot or feather?" so as to be sure not to offend them. You wouldn't want to make the assumption that they're the wrong kind of Indian.