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Columbia U invites Ahmadinejad to speak on campus

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Columbia has every right and responsibility as an institution of higher learning to expose its students to all points of view, even those that the majority finds repugnant. This is a basic thesis of the First Amendment right of Free Speech. Unless Ahmadinejad were to foment a riot by his speech, he has every right to give his views of the world, as warped as they may be.

Is there anyone who fails to see how dangerous and improper this is - not to mention unconstitutional - that government officials threaten and punish universities for hosting speakers whom the officials dislike?

Silencing a speaker like Ahmadinejad is bad but what's worse is the fact that we feel a need to do so. Clearly the need to demonize him stems from the discomfort that any self-reflection would necessarily produce if we were to forget our own identity and self interest and look at the MidEast from a disinterested and rational standpoint.

If, he is as bad as they say, then anything he might say would only act in our favor. If not, then it's our own house that we still need to get in order.

Graduate students at the School for International Policy Administration are getting the best possible training for international diplomacy by hearing from dangerous leaders like Ahmadinejad. We should be encouraging dialogue in our institutions.

When lots of seemingly intelligent people start acting like words can hurt them, you know something is seriously messed up.

Permanent war means permanent war powers, means ultimate and unlimited power. And you can't have permanent war without permanently finding someone to war against. The unending 'war on terror' is too ambiguous to justify outright war with nation-states. It may be used as one of the justifications, but it is not itself tangible enough. They need a scapegoat, a figurehead, a real flesh-and-blood target.

What this really illustrates more than anything else is the true danger to our national character and basic liberties from being in a permanent state of war fighting.

MSNBC was discussing Ahmedinijads pending visit to the US the other day. The banner on the screen read, "Axis Of Evil Leader to speak at Columbia University". Did you know Ahmedinijad was the leader of the entire "axis of evil"?

1. Pick a leader you don't like.

2. Antagonize him enough to turn him into an enemy.

3. Call him an enemy and bomb him.

The unhinged people who control the debate in this country are unconcerned with facts. They are immune to logic. They crave simple narratives that confirm their inner truthiness.

Allowing Ahmedinijad to speak allows him to muddy the waters with inconvenient truths and complicates the monochrome world they create in their own image. So of course they insist that he STFU -- "I know what I know, and no terrist is gonna change mah mind."

They fear the message even more than they fear the messenger. Ignorance is their only refuge from a world full of refutation.







 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
This has nothing to do with pide. Nor does it have anything to do with employment.

This has to do with what speech is considered "free" on college campuses and what isn't.

But you keep smugly pretending I have "lost," whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, other than it being yet another of your desperately lame attempts to present discussions in here as some kind of ideological arm-wrestling contest instead of a presentation of ideas by both sides. I mean, talk about infantile. That kind of crap practically defines infantile.

No, as I've said in other threads I really hate this assumption that all points of view are equally valid. They aren't.

Some things in life are uncertain and in those cases a mutual presentation of ideas is the best that anyone can get to finding out what is right. The big bang, the origins of life, what's going to happen geopolitically with Iran, things like that.

Some things are not at all uncertain, like why universities would have different standards of acceptable speech for guest speakers as compared to their salaried employees and public figureheads. In this case some people are right, and some people are wrong.

You tried to base your ideas on a comparison that was completely (and obviously) invalid, full of juvinile baiting and facile arguments. For this you got smacked down, and deservedly so.
There you go again, trying to force words into my statement that were never said. It's a method you employ quite frequently when responding to me because your responses are more often based on this stereotype you apparently have of me instead of what I actually say, a further exhibition of who the real infant is here.

And, naturally, differing standards of acceptable speech are obviously applied between those who would deny the holocaust and someone who would make a statement on an issue that's not even settled, and for which debated scientific evidence exists. Let's completely ignore the fact that the core of this is all about how free speech is accpeted on college campuses too so we can attempt to count dancing angels on pinheads and use that as an excuse to discard TLC's comment.

And stuff your "smacked down" BS. You haven't done anything of the sort. The only thing you've tried to do is to stifle my own statements in the matter which demonstrates just how big you really are on the subject of free speech. I don't feel the need to smack you down. You do that to yourself well enough.
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
There you go again, trying to force words into my statement that were never said. It's a method you employ quite frequently when responding to me because your responses are more often based on this stereotype you apparently have of me instead of what I actually say, a further exhibition of who the real infant is here.

And, naturally, differing standards of acceptable speech are obviously applied between those who would deny the holocaust and someone who would make a statement on an issue that's not even settled, and for which debated scientific evidence exists. Let's completely ignore the fact that the core of this is all about how free speech is accpeted on college campuses too so we can attempt to count dancing angels on pinheads and use that as an excuse to discard TLC's comment.

And stuff your "smacked down" BS. You haven't done anything of the sort. The only thing you've tried to do is to stifle my own statements in the matter which demonstrates just how big you really are on the subject of free speech. I don't feel the need to smack you down. You do that to yourself well enough.

Nope, I forced nothing into your statement. You've tried this before too... once confronted with indefensible positions you just try to claim you meant something else, no matter how obvious your posting was. Do I need to start quoting you to yourself again? Don't make me keep doing this to you.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
There you go again, trying to force words into my statement that were never said. It's a method you employ quite frequently when responding to me because your responses are more often based on this stereotype you apparently have of me instead of what I actually say, a further exhibition of who the real infant is here.

And, naturally, differing standards of acceptable speech are obviously applied between those who would deny the holocaust and someone who would make a statement on an issue that's not even settled, and for which debated scientific evidence exists. Let's completely ignore the fact that the core of this is all about how free speech is accpeted on college campuses too so we can attempt to count dancing angels on pinheads and use that as an excuse to discard TLC's comment.

And stuff your "smacked down" BS. You haven't done anything of the sort. The only thing you've tried to do is to stifle my own statements in the matter which demonstrates just how big you really are on the subject of free speech. I don't feel the need to smack you down. You do that to yourself well enough.

Nope, I forced nothing into your statement. You've tried this before too... once confronted with indefensible positions you just try to claim you meant something else, no matter how obvious your posting was. Do I need to start quoting you to yourself again? Don't make me keep doing this to you.
lol. What a delusional fool you are.

Back on topic, here's what Hillary had to say about Ahmadinejad's appearance:

"Well, if I were a president of the university, I would not have invited him. He's a Holocaust denier. He's a supporter of terrorism. But I also respect the right in our country to make different decisions."
 
Duncan Hunter has called for cutting all public funding of Columbia University. I agree 100%. If they want to piss and moan about being a "private" institution, they should have no problem running with "private" funds as well.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Duncan Hunter has called for cutting all public funding of Columbia University. I agree 100%. If they want to piss and moan about being a "private" institution, they should have no problem running with "private" funds as well.

I disagree. This is not a reason to cut any public funding to Columbia. It's still a fine university, not to mention that Bollinger called Ahmadinejad to the floor. I bet that kind of frank and direct confrontation surprised the hell out of him because you can be sure nobody in Iran would ever speak to him like that and live to see the sun tomorrow.

However, if they are going to permit people like Ahmadinejad to come to their stage they should extend that same courtesy to people of all ideologies. If not they come off as hypocrites of the first order.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Duncan Hunter has called for cutting all public funding of Columbia University. I agree 100%. If they want to piss and moan about being a "private" institution, they should have no problem running with "private" funds as well.

oh jesus... you again with the brilliant comments?
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pabster
Duncan Hunter has called for cutting all public funding of Columbia University. I agree 100%. If they want to piss and moan about being a "private" institution, they should have no problem running with "private" funds as well.

I disagree. This is not a reason to cut any public funding to Columbia. It's still a fine university, not to mention that Bollinger called Ahmadinejad to the floor. I bet that kind of frank and direct confrontation surprised the hell out of him because you can be sure nobody in Iran would ever speak to him like that and live to see the sun tomorrow.

However, if they are going to permit people like Ahmadinejad to come to their stage they should extend that same courtesy to people of all ideologies. If not they come off as hypocrites of the first order.

I'm pretty sure Columbia does extend invitations to people of all ideologies. They were going to have the head of the minutemen, who probably has drastically different viewpoints than most of the students and faculty. They bumped him so they could bring in an important political figurehead from the Middle East who has drastically different viewpoints than most of the students and faculty. I applaud Columbia for taking the steps to expose their students to viewpoints fundamentally different (even diametrically opposed) to their own. The idea that they should stop receiving public funding for bettering the educational opportunities at the University are laughable at best, and an open assault on free speech at worst.
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pabster
Duncan Hunter has called for cutting all public funding of Columbia University. I agree 100%. If they want to piss and moan about being a "private" institution, they should have no problem running with "private" funds as well.

I disagree. This is not a reason to cut any public funding to Columbia. It's still a fine university, not to mention that Bollinger called Ahmadinejad to the floor. I bet that kind of frank and direct confrontation surprised the hell out of him because you can be sure nobody in Iran would ever speak to him like that and live to see the sun tomorrow.

However, if they are going to permit people like Ahmadinejad to come to their stage they should extend that same courtesy to people of all ideologies. If not they come off as hypocrites of the first order.


i disagree... they should only extend it to polarizing figures that are big names in media outlets and people who can bring a serious debate to the table. ahmadinejad did that. even though most of his answers to questions were filled with bullshit, he did pose many important rhetorical issues.

no one gives a fuck about jim whatshisnuts... they want to come out to see people who have something to say that hasn't been heard before or something other than the same damn media propaganda that we hear day in and day out. in a sense, ahmadinejad's bullshit responses were refreshing as they were a different kind of bullshit that OUR president spews out of the ass he calls a face. it's refreshing to see the other side to the ugly, smelly, shit-covered coin.
 
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pabster
Duncan Hunter has called for cutting all public funding of Columbia University. I agree 100%. If they want to piss and moan about being a "private" institution, they should have no problem running with "private" funds as well.

I disagree. This is not a reason to cut any public funding to Columbia. It's still a fine university, not to mention that Bollinger called Ahmadinejad to the floor. I bet that kind of frank and direct confrontation surprised the hell out of him because you can be sure nobody in Iran would ever speak to him like that and live to see the sun tomorrow.

However, if they are going to permit people like Ahmadinejad to come to their stage they should extend that same courtesy to people of all ideologies. If not they come off as hypocrites of the first order.

I'm pretty sure Columbia does extend invitations to people of all ideologies. They were going to have the head of the minutemen, who probably has drastically different viewpoints than most of the students and faculty. They bumped him so they could bring in an important political figurehead from the Middle East who has drastically different viewpoints than most of the students and faculty. I applaud Columbia for taking the steps to expose their students to viewpoints fundamentally different (even diametrically opposed) to their own. The idea that they should stop receiving public funding for bettering the educational opportunities at the University are laughable at best, and an open assault on free speech at worst.

Actually, Gilchrist was set for a return engagement because this happened to him last time he came:

http://www.nysun.com/article/41020

Students stormed the stage at Columbia University's Roone auditorium yesterday, knocking over chairs and tables and attacking Jim Gilchrist, the founder of the Minutemen, a group that patrols the border between America and Mexico.

Mr. Gilchrist and Marvin Stewart, another member of his group, were in the process of giving a speech at the invitation of the Columbia College Republicans. They were escorted off the stage unharmed and exited the auditorium by a back door.

Having wreaked havoc onstage, the students unrolled a banner that read, in both Arabic and English, "No one is ever illegal." As security guards closed the curtains and began escorting people from the auditorium, the students jumped from the stage, pumping their fists, chanting victoriously, "Si se pudo, si se pudo," Spanish for "Yes we could!"

...

Didn't see anyone rushing the stage today though no doubt there wouldn't have been a shortage of volunteers to do so.
 
I agree, its wrong for Columbia to censor Jim Gilchrist. He should have been listened to and sent home with the same verbal spanking Ahmadinejad received.

Censorship is always wrong.
 
A fact that needs to be pointed out..

Neither the ROTC nor the Minutemen were prohibited from speaking at Columbia.

The ROTC are free to speak. They are not free to recruit Columbia students for employment on campus because they have a policy discriminating against some Columbia students. Columbia has a policy that says that only employers with non-discriminatory hiring policies are allowed to recruit. Any employer which says "We don't hire blacks/women/the elderly/Jews/gays/the disabled" can't use the campus to recruit.

That has nothing to do with speaking.

And the Minutemen, as I already said, are not barred. They were disinvited by the group that invited them. Had that group wanted them to speak, Columbia did nothing to prevent it.

They decided to cancel thier speech after the stage was mobbed and it became clear that they had about 10 supporters in the entire crowd. This has nothing to do with the administration at Columbia denying them access.





 
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
A fact that needs to be pointed out..

Neither the ROTC nor the Minutemen were prohibited from speaking at Columbia.

The ROTC are free to speak. They are not free to recruit Columbia students for employment on campus because they have a policy discriminating against some Columbia students. Columbia has a policy that says that only employers with non-discriminatory hiring policies are allowed to recruit. Any employer which says "We don't hire blacks/women/the elderly/Jews/gays/the disabled" can't use the campus to recruit.

That has nothing to do with speaking.

And the Minutemen, as I already said, are not barred. They were disinvited by the group that invited them. Had that group wanted them to speak, Columbia did nothing to prevent it.

They decided to cancel thier speech after the stage was mobbed and it became clear that they had about 10 supporters in the entire crowd. This has nothing to do with the administration at Columbia denying them access.
10 supporters? Proof?

The reason Gilchrist's speech was nixed is because the student union trying to hold the discussion met with the same groups who stormed the stage last year and asked whether they could have a civil discussion instead of another stage storming replete with sloganeering, taunts, and threats of violence. Those groups would not guarantee civil discussion, therefore the event was cancelled.

It's was cancelled because certain student groups could not control themselves and would NOT allow the other side to talk. Oddly enough, they are some of the same groups that demand that everyone else listen to what they have to say and who drone on about free speech whether others want to hear their speech or not.

I hope the irony of that doesn't pass anyone by.
 
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: neovan
How do you say, "Don't tase me bro" in farsi?

mahn-oh taze nah-kohn, agha!

I've just started learning Farsi and like most of it, this sounds like gibberish 😛

man = i
taze = taze
nah = no
kohn = do
agha = supposed to be a word of respect, like "sir" or "mr.", but it can be used as "dude" in the certain context
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
A fact that needs to be pointed out..

Neither the ROTC nor the Minutemen were prohibited from speaking at Columbia.

The ROTC are free to speak. They are not free to recruit Columbia students for employment on campus because they have a policy discriminating against some Columbia students. Columbia has a policy that says that only employers with non-discriminatory hiring policies are allowed to recruit. Any employer which says "We don't hire blacks/women/the elderly/Jews/gays/the disabled" can't use the campus to recruit.

That has nothing to do with speaking.

And the Minutemen, as I already said, are not barred. They were disinvited by the group that invited them. Had that group wanted them to speak, Columbia did nothing to prevent it.

They decided to cancel thier speech after the stage was mobbed and it became clear that they had about 10 supporters in the entire crowd. This has nothing to do with the administration at Columbia denying them access.
10 supporters? Proof?

The reason Gilchrist's speech was nixed is because the student union trying to hold the discussion met with the same groups who stormed the stage last year and asked whether they could have a civil discussion instead of another stage storming replete with sloganeering, taunts, and threats of violence. Those groups would not guarantee civil discussion, therefore the event was cancelled.

It's was cancelled because certain student groups could not control themselves and would NOT allow the other side to talk. Oddly enough, they are some of the same groups that demand that everyone else listen to what they have to say and who drone on about free speech whether others want to hear their speech or not.

I hope the irony of that doesn't pass anyone by.

You two seem to be talking past each other. BMW seemed to be making the point that student groups, and not the school admin, were the cause of invitations being sent/cancelled, and that the admin was neutral in the goings on. This goes quite a ways towards dismissing O'Reilliesque claims that the school sanctions or censors.

As to the irony factor, censorship seems to swing both ways depending on people's views. In another thread on here, a professor was fired recently for daring to call a bible story a fairy tale. Seems the religious right doesn't want people talking about things they don't want to hear either.
 
Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
A fact that needs to be pointed out..

Neither the ROTC nor the Minutemen were prohibited from speaking at Columbia.

The ROTC are free to speak. They are not free to recruit Columbia students for employment on campus because they have a policy discriminating against some Columbia students. Columbia has a policy that says that only employers with non-discriminatory hiring policies are allowed to recruit. Any employer which says "We don't hire blacks/women/the elderly/Jews/gays/the disabled" can't use the campus to recruit.

That has nothing to do with speaking.

And the Minutemen, as I already said, are not barred. They were disinvited by the group that invited them. Had that group wanted them to speak, Columbia did nothing to prevent it.

They decided to cancel thier speech after the stage was mobbed and it became clear that they had about 10 supporters in the entire crowd. This has nothing to do with the administration at Columbia denying them access.
10 supporters? Proof?

The reason Gilchrist's speech was nixed is because the student union trying to hold the discussion met with the same groups who stormed the stage last year and asked whether they could have a civil discussion instead of another stage storming replete with sloganeering, taunts, and threats of violence. Those groups would not guarantee civil discussion, therefore the event was cancelled.

It's was cancelled because certain student groups could not control themselves and would NOT allow the other side to talk. Oddly enough, they are some of the same groups that demand that everyone else listen to what they have to say and who drone on about free speech whether others want to hear their speech or not.

I hope the irony of that doesn't pass anyone by.

You two seem to be talking past each other. BMW seemed to be making the point that student groups, and not the school admin, were the cause of invitations being sent/cancelled, and that the admin was neutral in the goings on. This goes quite a ways towards dismissing O'Reilliesque claims that the school sanctions or censors.
I've been making that same point all along. The links I've posted on the subject were about the student groups, not the school admin.

I don't watch O'Reilly either since he's an annoying, pompous twit so I have no idea what he's been saying.

As to the irony factor, censorship seems to swing both ways depending on people's views. In another thread on here, a professor was fired recently for daring to call a bible story a fairy tale. Seems the religious right doesn't want people talking about things they don't want to hear either.
I don't recall seeing the religious right storm the stage and run Ahmadinejad off. Did I miss it?
 
Originally posted by: IGBT
..so Columbia U blacked out their name on all the lecterns for Jad's speach. why is that??
Odd wasn't it? The lecturn and background was completely blacked out with no reference to Columbia University. They haven't done that for other international speakers. References to their uni are plastered everywhere.

You should hear the KOS kids lamenting Bollinger's opening statements. They thought he was rude to poor little Mahmoud. These are the same punks that refer to Bush as Commander McChimpy and rant about speaking truth to power.
 
Wow this is a surpise. Bush himself had no problem with this speech.

"If the (Columbia) president thinks it's a good idea to have the leader from Iran come and talk to the students as an educational experience, I guess it's OK with me," Bush told Fox News.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Wow this is a surpise. Bush himself had no problem with this speech.

"If the (Columbia) president thinks it's a good idea to have the leader from Iran come and talk to the students as an educational experience, I guess it's OK with me," Bush told Fox News.

Catch him off the record and I bet it's a different story.
 
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