College grads taking low-wage jobs displace less educated

[OverVolt]

In what world is having more college educated people a 'problem'?(apparently ours) Think about that notion for a moment. It means that having more college educated people is somehow a bad thing. Isn't the goal of a society to better itself over time? One of the ways that happens is through education. If the economic system can't handle more educated people, that is a systemic failing, not a personal one. Intentionally diminishing a society's mental capacity in order to cater to an increasingly dysfunctional economic system is absurd.

This is more a philosophical argument. How it happens through loans, grants, scholarships, etc is up to the country. The American way of student loans obviously has long term problems and making them dischargable would be a step in the right direction.

Watch the frontline video and you will see. Some of these for-profit school nursing students did their clinical rotations at a museum of Scientology. They did their pediatric rotations at a daycare. So in interviews, they were being asked "have you ever actually been in a hospital as a worker" and they answered "no..." with kind of a shaky voice. Since they bombed all their interviews this way. They had $60,000 in non-dischargeable debt and no job prospects.

This is so not a philosophical argument. For-profit colleges have sprung up because the non-profit college state schools can't handle the demand. You KNOW how extreme the demand is. Everyone who was content before '08 now wants to go to get a degree because they can feel the water rising. What is the common mantra? "if you want to be successful you need a college degree!" is so ingrained into society and the for-profit schools are waiting to take people in. The non-profit schools DO NOT have enough seats. So the for-profit sector opens up. I think in the video it said the University of Phoenix has like 500,000 enrolled and that was more than a year ago. The quality of the education is just not there IMO. A good chunk of an entire generation is going to have unpayable non-dischargeable debt.

Anyone with college educated parents would know to laugh at clinical rotations at a museum of Scientology but they specifically target and advertize to people who really would not know any better until they graduate. You've seen the ads.

 

[pete6032]

Actually its a race to the top. In the future all burger flippers will have higher education and a College Degree.

So employees now get to hire a much higher caliber of employee with 4 year degrees VS the highschool dropout.

In the future. All jobs will have a College educated workforce.

So 5 years from now the quality of my burger will be much better.

 

[Slew Foot]

theres a story out there about a freshmen at Duke who does porn to pay her 58k a year tuition

So youre saying more chicks are going to go into porn?

Maybe this is a good thing

 

[Zaap]

What is the common mantra? "if you want to be successful you need a college degree!" is so ingrained into society...

Ironically I think its ingrained into "not so bright" society or at best "takes things too litterally" society.

It's long since been overdue for an upgrade that's more reality based, ie: "if you want to be successful learn how to do something that's highly valuable to other people."

Now that COULD involve a degree of some sort, but then again it may not. And 100% guaranteed is that every degree that it's possible to get has absolutely nothing to do with the key part which is "...highly valuable to other people."

 

[ivwshane]

Ironically I think its ingrained into "not so bright" society or at best "takes things too litterally" society.

It's long since been overdue for an upgrade that's more reality based, ie: "if you want to be successful learn how to do something that's highly valuable to other people."

Now that COULD involve a degree of some sort, but then again it may not. And 100% guaranteed is that every degree that it's possible to get has absolutely nothing to do with the key part which is "...highly valuable to other people."

Yep its as easy as that! If you want to be successful just do something that is successful! If poor people want to stop being poor then they just need to stop being poor!

Your powers of observation and deduction are amazing!

 

[ivwshane]

Watch the frontline video and you will see. Some of these for-profit school nursing students did their clinical rotations at a museum of Scientology. They did their pediatric rotations at a daycare. So in interviews, they were being asked "have you ever actually been in a hospital as a worker" and they answered "no..." with kind of a shaky voice. Since they bombed all their interviews this way. They had $60,000 in non-dischargeable debt and no job prospects.

This is so not a philosophical argument. For-profit colleges have sprung up because the non-profit college state schools can't handle the demand. You KNOW how extreme the demand is. Everyone who was content before '08 now wants to go to get a degree because they can feel the water rising. What is the common mantra? "if you want to be successful you need a college degree!" is so ingrained into society and the for-profit schools are waiting to take people in. The non-profit schools DO NOT have enough seats. So the for-profit sector opens up. I think in the video it said the University of Phoenix has like 500,000 enrolled and that was more than a year ago. The quality of the education is just not there IMO. A good chunk of an entire generation is going to have unpayable non-dischargeable debt.

Anyone with college educated parents would know to laugh at clinical rotations at a museum of Scientology but they specifically target and advertize to people who really would not know any better until they graduate. You've seen the ads.

Exactly! And you can trace back that inability to meet demand almost right back to Reagan, while governor of California, who defunded non profit schools and who let the gap be filled with for profit schools.

I'd say most schools don't even compete on the quality of education they provide but rather on extraneous things and degree programs that offer little value but are easy to obtain.

 

[Zaap]

Yep its as easy as that! If you want to be successful just do something that is successful! If poor people want to stop being poor then they just need to stop being poor!

Your powers of observation and deduction are amazing!

An expert at fail spouts.
Poor people need to listen to dumb, bitter failures! That makes so much sense as a recipe for success!

Lefties. *chuckle*

 

[Scotteq]

Not everyone needs to be an engineer or doctor, but there's always the option of, you know, simply not getting a degree if one is desired primarily for employment purposes.

Around here, if you want to Teach you are required to have a Post Grad degree (Masters), and your certifications complete.

Just Sayin'...

 

[unokitty]

... A good chunk of an entire generation is going to have unpayable non-dischargeable debt...

Government Vastly Undercounts Defaults

Thirty percent of loans made to students attending four-year for-profit colleges have defaulted within 15 years of entering repayment, more than twice the default rates at public and private nonprofit four-year colleges, which are 15.1 percent and 13.6 percent, respectively.

The differences are smaller at the two-year level, where 40 percent of loans made to students attending for-profits have gone into default within 15 years of entering repayment, compared with 31.3 percent of loans made to community-college students and 29.3 percent of those made to students who attended two-year nonprofit private college...

When borrowers default on their student loans, taxpayers are on the hook for 97 to 100 percent of the losses, depending on whether the default is on a guaranteed or direct loan. For example, if a student with $30,000 in debt were to default without making a single payment, taxpayers would be responsible for $29,100 to all of it.

Nothing is wrong with pursuing higher education.

Quite a bit is wrong when 30 or 40 percent of your 'for profit' college alumns can't pay their student debts.

And not to quibble, but the 15 to 30 percent default rate for the 'Public" college alumns doesn't seem too stellar either...

If people want to go to college for the aesthetics, I don't have a problem with that...

If however, they want tax payers to finance their pursuit, then that becomes a different issue...

When borrowers default on their student loans, taxpayers are on the hook for 97 to 100 percent of the losses, depending on whether the default is on a guaranteed or direct loan. For example, if a student with $30,000 in debt were to default without making a single payment, taxpayers would be responsible for $29,100 to all of it...
At the end of the 2008 fiscal year, $39.1-billion worth of loans were in default, according to the Education Department. By the end of the 2009 fiscal year, that total had swelled to $50.8-billion, an increase of nearly 30 percent. As of the end of April, the government had recovered only $6.2-billion of that money.

Higher Education can be a wonderful thing. Free loan money for anyone that wants to study anything isn't quite so wonderful...

Uno

 

[Mai72]

IMO we need to hit the reset button. Let's forgive student loans, but in return the government needs to put stringent standards on how loans are distributed to both students and universities.

It's going to happen anyway. We have over a trillion dollars in student loan debt. It's going to continue to rise with no end in sight. Young and older people who have loan debt are not going to be able to purchase homes, appliances, electronics, and cars. This is going to have a HUGE impact on our economy.

What about the young people who have defaulted on their student loan debt. They are screwed for life! They don't even know it, because they are way too young. They shouldn't have been given $60k in student loans. It's absurd. I blame both the parents, public schools, and universities. They should teach finances in high school. They should teach children that if you take out $60k in student loan debt that you are going to be saddled with a big monthly bill for a very long time. That means no car, no home, and possibly no future.

Just a thought.

 

[fskimospy]

IMO we need to hit the reset button. Let's forgive student loans, but in return the government needs to put stringent standards on how loans are distributed to both students and universities.

It's going to happen anyway. We have over a trillion dollars in student loan debt. It's going to continue to rise with no end in sight. Young and older people who have loan debt are not going to be able to purchase homes, appliances, electronics, and cars. This is going to have a HUGE impact on our economy.

What about the young people who have defaulted on their student loan debt. They are screwed for life! They don't even know it, because they are way too young. They shouldn't have been given $60k in student loans. It's absurd. I blame both the parents, public schools, and universities. They should teach finances in high school. They should teach children that if you take out $60k in student loan debt that you are going to be saddled with a big monthly bill for a very long time. That means no car, no home, and possibly no future.

Just a thought.

Research shows there is little correlation between teaching finances in high school and better financial decisions later in life.

Also, the average amount of student loans someone has is about $30k, but that also ignores about 30% of students (like me, thankfully!) that graduated with no debt. So really, the average student loan debt for graduates is somewhere in the $20k range. While this is certainly bad and there are some cases where people have been foolishly allowed to take out crippling debt, that is not the norm.

It is, at the moment, basically the price of a new car.

So while I think student debt is a large and increasing problem and we need to administer it differently, we should be sure we are looking at it clearly.

 

[Mai72]

Research shows there is little correlation between teaching finances in high school and better financial decisions later in life.

Also, the average amount of student loans someone has is about $30k, but that also ignores about 30% of students (like me, thankfully!) that graduated with no debt. So really, the average student loan debt for graduates is somewhere in the $20k range. While this is certainly bad and there are some cases where people have been foolishly allowed to take out crippling debt, that is not the norm.

It is, at the moment, basically the price of a new car.

So while I think student debt is a large and increasing problem and we need to administer it differently, we should be sure we are looking at it clearly.

Really? Where is this research? We should at least give children an idea about finances. Most don't have the faintest clue about the value of money. Knowledge is power! Also, I thought that it starts at home. It seems to me that children are going to mimic what their parents do later in life. If a parent is a saver it is more than likely that their children will save. If mom and dad spent foolishly then their children are going to do the same.

Let's say the average rate of student loan debt is $20k. Then why are defaults at an all time high? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/student-loans-default_n_4019806.html

One in 10 recent borrowers defaulted on their federal student loans within the first two years, the highest default rate since 1995, according to annual figures made public Monday by the Department of Education.

Maybe this will change as the economy improves. I'm talking about good paying jobs. Working at Starbucks doesn't count.

 

[shadow9d9]

An expert at fail spouts.
Poor people need to listen to dumb, bitter failures! That makes so much sense as a recipe for success!

Lefties. *chuckle*

You think there is a "left" in this country.. chuckles... Fucking idiot.

 

[OverVolt]

State college is running about $11k/year around here with all the student aid and whatnot mixed in, the actual price not the sticker price I guess. So thats $44k for the whole shebang or $22k if you try and cheap it out at CC.

There are pros and cons to that because spending your first two years at CC doesn't expose you to as many opportunities.

 

[Mai72]

A good article on for-profit colleges.

http://www.umassmedia.com/opinions/...cle_8c7c67ec-a5c2-11e3-aeb4-0017a43b2370.html

 

[Mai72]

State college is running about $11k/year around here with all the student aid and whatnot mixed in, the actual price not the sticker price I guess. So thats $44k for the whole shebang or $22k if you try and cheap it out at CC.

There are pros and cons to that because spending your first two years at CC doesn't expose you to as many internship opportunities. It takes awhile to get to know teachers and such. Someone can't exactly transfer in and get letters of recommendation written for you with your all of 2 months relationship with your professors for an internship you learned about a week ago that only takes juniors, so you need to interview and get in before 2 semesters etc.

I saved money by attending a Community College. I made the mistake of going to The Art Institute of Fort lauderdale for music and video business. That was a HUGE mistake. The only thing I did while I was in Florida was party. I met a lot of girls and had a good time. When I tried to transfer my credits to my local CC a year later there was a big red X on all of my classes that I took at the Art Institute. Not one class transferred. Nothing! A lot of money wasted.

Obama help me! :'(

I was young, dumb, and full of c*m. 🙁

 

[Franz316]

This is so not a philosophical argument. For-profit colleges have sprung up because the non-profit college state schools can't handle the demand. You KNOW how extreme the demand is. Everyone who was content before '08 now wants to go to get a degree because they can feel the water rising. What is the common mantra? "if you want to be successful you need a college degree!" is so ingrained into society and the for-profit schools are waiting to take people in. The non-profit schools DO NOT have enough seats. So the for-profit sector opens up. I think in the video it said the University of Phoenix has like 500,000 enrolled and that was more than a year ago. The quality of the education is just not there IMO. A good chunk of an entire generation is going to have unpayable non-dischargeable debt.

Anyone with college educated parents would know to laugh at clinical rotations at a museum of Scientology but they specifically target and advertize to people who really would not know any better until they graduate. You've seen the ads.

I would agree that the quality of education is very important and for-profits usually fail badly in that regard. Clearly, all educations are not created equal and I do not equate a for-profit diploma mill with a public university. The for-profits mainly prey on those with no chance of at a traditional university and take advantage of the rising water phenomenon you mentioned. I've seen the ads too, they are pretty sickening. The loan vendors and the schools basically have a racket/cartel going on (public schools are not exempt from it).

My original post was meant more to be a broad picture of the long run rather than where we are now. Ideally in principle, you want to see as many higher educated folks as possible, getting the best educations possible. Right now, obviously that is not the case. I'm really not quite sure what the answer is in that regard, since the public system is already pretty loaded and for-profits are mainly terrible. Trade schools are okay, but they come with an inherent narrowness in scope. For some people they are great and with the internet nowadays, you can learn practically anything. I don't know what is more grossly overpriced in America - healthcare or education.

 

[Franz316]

When I tried to transfer my credits to my local CC a year later there was a big red X on all of my classes that I took at the Art Institute.

I work in the creative field and I've come across a few AI grads with some horror stories. The Art Institutes are notorious for a number of reasons, one of which being they give terrible training. They basically go around exploiting young people's dreams promising positions in the field. Instead, the students come out with merely an elementary level of understanding and 100k in debt. You could probably get comparable training doing tutorials off of websites. They are basically one big scam and actually got sued by the Government for something like $10B

 

[Mai72]

The Art Institutes are notorious for a number of reasons. They exploit young people’s dreams to sell fake educations for ungodly amounts of money. You could probably get comparable training doing tutorials off of websites. They are basically one big scam and actually got sued by the Government for something like $10B

LOL. I saw their add in the back of Guitar Player. I wanted to work with rock stars! Instead I got saddled with debt.

I had read the lawsuit. They should have been shut down. Are they a much better school since the lawsuit?

This was in 2011: http://petapixel.com/2011/09/02/us-gov-sues-the-art-institutes-for-11-billion-fraud/

At the Art Institute of Pittsburgh campus alone, there were reportedly about 600 photography students pursuing a bachelor of arts or associates degree as of last summer, says Kathleen A. Bittel, the whistleblower whose testimony before a US Senate committee last fall helped trigger the federal lawsuit against EDMC. [...] “Where are 600 photography graduates going to go? You cannot absorb that many in one city. How are they going to make money?” she says.

 

[raildogg]

College isn't about jobs, it's about learning to think. A university is not a vocational school.

Maybe, maybe not. Our society is full of sheep - conformist imitators - in every way possible. An increase of college degree holders hasn't changed that. Look around. Look on Youtube or wherever else. All bunch of conformists.

People's minds have not changed due to college. They may be slightly more sophisticated, slightly more cultured but that's about it. If people's minds really changed due to college I doubt the world would be in much of a mess as it is today. A world that is led by college educated politicians.

 

[Jhhnn]

Ironically I think its ingrained into "not so bright" society or at best "takes things too litterally" society.

It's long since been overdue for an upgrade that's more reality based, ie: "if you want to be successful learn how to do something that's highly valuable to other people."

Now that COULD involve a degree of some sort, but then again it may not. And 100% guaranteed is that every degree that it's possible to get has absolutely nothing to do with the key part which is "...highly valuable to other people."

As if there's sufficient real demand for all that "highly valuable to other people" work atm.

Real demand, of course, includes the ability to pay for it, which runs counter to the right wing idea that only the best & brightest should be able to prosper, along with inheritors, of course. You think of getting ahead within the system, when the system itself allows for fewer & fewer to do that. Billionaires only create just so much demand on their own, even with the most opulent lifestyles, and their hoarding of liquidity prevents others from creating much, either.

Who creates more demand- 1,000 people working for decent money or 1 guy who makes 1,000 times their average wage from his investments?

When 1 engineer can do the work that 10 used to do before computers, is there really demand for the services of the other 9? Did we somehow create 10X the demand for such services by leaving them un or under employed? When there are bright & capable engineers in India who'll work for a quarter the money, why are American engineers employed at all?

Might want to take a look just beyond the end of your self righteous nose.

 

[Zaap]

LOL. Pretty much the spokesholes for "not so bright" society identified themselves.

Just in case anyone was wondering... yeah. Dummies like them.

 

[Jhhnn]

Ironically I think its ingrained into "not so bright" society or at best "takes things too litterally" society.

It's long since been overdue for an upgrade that's more reality based, ie: "if you want to be successful learn how to do something that's highly valuable to other people."

Now that COULD involve a degree of some sort, but then again it may not. And 100% guaranteed is that every degree that it's possible to get has absolutely nothing to do with the key part which is "...highly valuable to other people."

LOL. Pretty much the spokesholes for "not so bright" society identified themselves.

Just in case anyone was wondering... yeah. Dummies like them.

Yeh, it's easy to label anybody who disagrees with you as a loser & a dummy. Within the usual self righteous wing nut headset, it's actually necessary to ignore what they say & to maintain denial.

If you actually attempted to answer the questions posed above, you'd end up questioning your belief structure, something Righties avoid at all costs. The people who feed you the bullshit you believe depend on that entirely.

 

[rudder]

All this really means is that you don't need a degree...get specialized in something combined with a little hard work and dedication and you'll be fine.

If you want a career as a pilot... 4 years of college won't offer any benefit over a technical school devoted to aviation training. But good luck getting a decent job with out a 4 year degree.

And I used to agree with you on your other point... that is getting some specialized skills without a degree. Plumbing for instance. Too many people felt crawling around a leaking poop pipe was beneath them... but a great living could be made. However now you cannot survive against these companies that hire illegal labor. They hire a number of illegals to do the dirty stuff with a skilled plumber overseeing the work. That company then could get a lot more done and charge less on volume. For a young plumber starting out it will be tough.

 

[Jhhnn]

Too many people felt crawling around a leaking poop pipe was beneath them...

Mere assertion presented as fact. Illegals aren't hired because nobody else will do it, but because they're cheaper.

It's what the Jerb Creators do, right? Maximize profit!