College: Future Career (PC Programming/Support/Engineering)

[Reckoner]

Originally posted by: postmortemIA

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: thepd7


LOL are you serious? Every intelligent person I know looks down on people who get an undergrad degree is business. MBA is a different story, or an undergrad in business at UT, Harvard, UPenn, thats different, but your average run of the mill bachelor's in business? Cop out degree, at least what what I have heard.

<------------- Electrical Engineering major

Yes, I am serious, and electrical engineers were one of the first jobs to get outsourced to India, China, and third world countries.

A friend of mine has a brother in law in the Philippines that's an EE. He makes about $1000 a month over there. Can you compete with that price?

Think about it- what business requirement demands that the part be designed in the US? The parts have been made over there for quite some time now; outsourcing the engineering was the next logical step from an executive point of view

I know you're not willing to accept that since you're still in school for that subject, but it's the truth.

You are full of ******. "I know a friend of mine that his friend"..blah blah blah. How does that stand against this:
Computer and Electrical Es are ranked #2 and #3(after Chemical Engineers) per initial salary after graduation.
http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html

AFAIK, all computer science and engineering students in my generation secured job before graduation. These creative jobs will be always in high demand. Many people had sev eral offers to chose from. And note value of your degree. Engineering degrees are worth 35% more.

Sourcing articles from a college isn't exactly the most unbiased viewpoint.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: postmortemIA

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: thepd7


LOL are you serious? Every intelligent person I know looks down on people who get an undergrad degree is business. MBA is a different story, or an undergrad in business at UT, Harvard, UPenn, thats different, but your average run of the mill bachelor's in business? Cop out degree, at least what what I have heard.

<------------- Electrical Engineering major

Yes, I am serious, and electrical engineers were one of the first jobs to get outsourced to India, China, and third world countries.

A friend of mine has a brother in law in the Philippines that's an EE. He makes about $1000 a month over there. Can you compete with that price?

Think about it- what business requirement demands that the part be designed in the US? The parts have been made over there for quite some time now; outsourcing the engineering was the next logical step from an executive point of view

I know you're not willing to accept that since you're still in school for that subject, but it's the truth.

You are full of ******. "I know a friend of mine that his friend"..blah blah blah. How does that stand against this:
Computer and Electrical Es are ranked #2 and #3(after Chemical Engineers) per initial salary after graduation.
http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html

AFAIK, all computer science and engineering students in my generation secured job before graduation. These creative jobs will be always in high demand. Many people had sev eral offers to chose from. And note value of your degree. Engineering degrees are worth 35% more.

Apparently the demand for engineers is still good despite outsourcing:

link

 

[senseamp]

I would say do what you want to do, as long as it makes you descent money. Future proof career, even if such thing existed, isn't worth much if you are sick of it in 5 years.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
All I can recommend to you students is to major in business.

No company is going to look badly at you because you majored in business, even if that's not your specialty. If you get your degree in something that becomes irrelevant, it can work against you.

Pick the boring middle ground.

LOL are you serious? Every intelligent person I know looks down on people who get an undergrad degree is business. MBA is a different story, or an undergrad in business at UT, Harvard, UPenn, thats different, but your average run of the mill bachelor's in business? Cop out degree, at least what what I have heard.

<------------- Electrical Engineering major

The funny thing is those people that you look down upon will be far more successful in their careers.

I've said it many times and I'll say it again. Engineers are the grunts. Managing and being the boss of engineers and understanding the interplay between buisiness requirements gives the education of a business degree the upper hand.

This is the failure/mindset of engineers that pigeon hole them into an environment/career path. Learn the business or be doomed to your career of a grunt.

<----edit CS/EE and if I had it to do all over again I would have done business. The job of the engineer is to do the work, the grunt work. other smart people make them do the work for them. Being and studying engineering is not a glorious or lucrative career move, learning how to raise money and make others do the work for you is.

 

[postmortemIA]

The best example what happens when management people without technical skill get the chair is intel and its troubles.

 

[Special K]

n/m

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
All I can recommend to you students is to major in business.

No company is going to look badly at you because you majored in business, even if that's not your specialty. If you get your degree in something that becomes irrelevant, it can work against you.

Pick the boring middle ground.

LOL are you serious? Every intelligent person I know looks down on people who get an undergrad degree is business. MBA is a different story, or an undergrad in business at UT, Harvard, UPenn, thats different, but your average run of the mill bachelor's in business? Cop out degree, at least what what I have heard.

<------------- Electrical Engineering major

The funny thing is those people that you look down upon will be far more successful in their careers.

I've said it many times and I'll say it again. Engineers are the grunts. Managing and being the boss of engineers and understanding the interplay between buisiness requirements gives the education of a business degree the upper hand.

This is the failure/mindset of engineers that pigeon hole them into an environment/career path. Learn the business or be doomed to your career of a grunt.

<----edit CS/EE and if I had it to do all over again I would have done business. The job of the engineer is to do the work, the grunt work. other smart people make them do the work for them. Being and studying engineering is not a glorious or lucrative career move, learning how to raise money and make others do the work for you is.

Well a lot of engineers go to business school, and there are also a lot of business majors who are at dead end bean counting positions, so it's not like a business degree is an instant path to success, and an engineering degree is an automatic dead end.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Special K
When I interviewed at Intel, I was surprised to learn that many of the managers there were (surprise) engineers. Granted the higher up ones also had an MBA, but still... It's not like no engineer ever makes that transition.

Plus the pay scales for management and design engineering are equal until you reach the VP level positions, so it's not like the design track is a complete dead end.

I understand. But overall, as a whole, that is not the norm IMHO.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: postmortemIA

You are full of ******. "I know a friend of mine that his friend"..blah blah blah. How does that stand against this:
Computer and Electrical Es are ranked #2 and #3(after Chemical Engineers) per initial salary after graduation.
http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html

I am not full of ****, I have simply been in the job market longer than 90% of the people (who are mostly 16-22) on this board.

I have seen the job market change firsthand.

And while the initial salary of an engineer may be high out of college, why don't you look around to see the advancement opportunities they (don't) have.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: postmortemIA

You are full of ******. "I know a friend of mine that his friend"..blah blah blah. How does that stand against this:
Computer and Electrical Es are ranked #2 and #3(after Chemical Engineers) per initial salary after graduation.
http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html

I am not full of ****, I have simply been in the job market longer than 90% of the people (who are mostly 16-22) on this board.

I have seen the job market change firsthand.

And while the initial salary of an engineer may be high out of college, why don't you look around to see the advancement opportunities they (don't) have.

don't waste your breath. all they look at is starting salary, neglecting overall earnings over the course of their career/options. I've tried to show this. They still don't listen.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: postmortemIA

You are full of ******. "I know a friend of mine that his friend"..blah blah blah. How does that stand against this:
Computer and Electrical Es are ranked #2 and #3(after Chemical Engineers) per initial salary after graduation.
http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html

I am not full of ****, I have simply been in the job market longer than 90% of the people (who are mostly 16-22) on this board.

I have seen the job market change firsthand.

And while the initial salary of an engineer may be high out of college, why don't you look around to see the advancement opportunities they (don't) have.

don't waste your breath. all they look at is starting salary, neglecting overall earnings over the course of their career/options. I've tried to show this. They still don't listen.

Well then tell me, what am I supposed to do? I am getting a free MSEE at a top 10 engineering school. Lots of the companies I thought I wanted to work for recruit here, and people don't seem to have trouble getting decent jobs. It seemed like a good idea back when I was in undergrad. What am I supposed to do now to avoid a life of misery? Keep in mind I originally picked EE because I found it interesting.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: spidey07
I've said it many times and I'll say it again. Engineers are the grunts. Managing and being the boss of engineers and understanding the interplay between buisiness requirements gives the education of a business degree the upper hand.

This is the failure/mindset of engineers that pigeon hole them into an environment/career path. Learn the business or be doomed to your career of a grunt.

You hit the nail right on the head there. I don't have anything against EE's, in fact that's what I studied back when I went to college. But a decade of work experience has opened my eyes to the harsh realities of business.

Engineers are a resource- they're not a vital part of a company. A company can just as well outsource their engineering work. You'll rarely find high-level executives being outsourced because they're the ones making the business decisions- they won't outsource themselves.

Engineers are often too focused on a single point, and that gives them tunnel vision. They can't see the outsourcing train about to broadside them. They think that because they do hard mental work that it makes them indispensable. It does not. Like you say, they're grunts. They're there to do a job, just like a ditch digger is there to do a job. They're both labor though, which is a liability to a company.

People on the income side of a company have more job stability, since they help make the company money. People on the expense side of a company are always being looked at as liabilities, and if money can be saved by cutting staff, it will be on this side.

People can go on believing that they're going to get out of school with an engineering degree and their career will be safe. But once they have their feet wet, they'll see that there are other people getting the same degrees in other countries, and they're willing to work for a fraction of the price.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Special K
When I interviewed at Intel, I was surprised to learn that many of the managers there were (surprise) engineers. Granted the higher up ones also had an MBA, but still... It's not like no engineer ever makes that transition.

Plus the pay scales for management and design engineering are equal until you reach the VP level positions, so it's not like the design track is a complete dead end.

I understand. But overall, as a whole, that is not the norm IMHO.

Pretty much the norm in Silicon Valley. In a lot of companies there is a two track system, manager and individual contributor. If you are a guru in the field the company wants to compete in, you will be bringing in major money.
Also, Intel just had a big layoff targeting managers.
It may also be surprising to you that an engineering background is very helpful in getting into business school. A lot of electrical engineers I know moved on to Whartons and Chicagos and Stanford Business schools after working a few years. Even more move on to financial services and consulting companies. The most important part of an engineering education is not the subject matter, it's the rigorous way of thinking and solving problems. Which is why people with engineering educations often tend to do well in other fields.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Special K

Well then tell me, what am I supposed to do? I am getting a free MSEE at a top 10 engineering school. Lots of the companies I thought I wanted to work for recruit here, and people don't seem to have trouble getting decent jobs. It seemed like a good idea back when I was in undergrad. What am I supposed to do now to avoid a life of misery? Keep in mind I originally picked EE because I found it interesting.

I don't think you'll have any trouble at all getting a decent job right out of school. But that can be a bad thing, since it will further move you down a career track which may turn out to be a dead end.

I think you'll get a good job out of college, but maybe 1, 2, 5, or 10 years down the line, you'll find management types making a business decision that your job description is mobile, that there's no need to have the design work done in the US when there are cheaper options.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: senseamp

It may also be surprising to you that an engineering background is very helpful in getting into business school. A lot of electrical engineers I know moved on to Whartons and Chicagos and Stanford Business schools after working a few years. Even more move on to financial services and consulting companies. The most important part of an engineering education is not the subject matter, it's the rigorous way of thinking and solving problems. Which is why people with engineering educations often tend to do well in other fields.

I'd imagine that someone who can pass engineering courses are smarter to begin with, and they wouldn't have too much trouble studying other fields.

I've noticed at my job, people in the legal department are good at solving their computer problems, even if they have no idea how computers work. They just seem to have a methodical decision making/problem solving system ingrained in their head.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Special K

Well then tell me, what am I supposed to do? I am getting a free MSEE at a top 10 engineering school. Lots of the companies I thought I wanted to work for recruit here, and people don't seem to have trouble getting decent jobs. It seemed like a good idea back when I was in undergrad. What am I supposed to do now to avoid a life of misery? Keep in mind I originally picked EE because I found it interesting.

I don't think you'll have any trouble at all getting a decent job right out of school. But that can be a bad thing, since it will further move you down a career track which may turn out to be a dead end.

I think you'll get a good job out of college, but maybe 1, 2, 5, or 10 years down the line, you'll find management types making a business decision that your job description is mobile, that there's no need to have the design work done in the US when there are cheaper options.

So should I just work hard for a few years, try to get an MBA at a good school, and then either try to move into some type of management position, or change careers entirely?

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: spidey07
I've said it many times and I'll say it again. Engineers are the grunts. Managing and being the boss of engineers and understanding the interplay between buisiness requirements gives the education of a business degree the upper hand.

This is the failure/mindset of engineers that pigeon hole them into an environment/career path. Learn the business or be doomed to your career of a grunt.

You hit the nail right on the head there. I don't have anything against EE's, in fact that's what I studied back when I went to college. But a decade of work experience has opened my eyes to the harsh realities of business.

Engineers are a resource- they're not a vital part of a company. A company can just as well outsource their engineering work. You'll rarely find high-level executives being outsourced because they're the ones making the business decisions.

Engineers are often too focused on a single point, and that gives them tunnel vision. They can't see the outsourcing train about to broadside them. They think that because they do hard mental work that it makes them indispensable. It does not. Like you say, they're grunts. They're there to do a job, just like a ditch digger is there to do a job. They're both labor though, which is a liability to a company.

People on the income side of a company have more job stability, since they help make the company money. People on the expense side of a company are always being looked at as liabilities, and if money can be saved by cutting staff, it will be on this side.

People can go on believing that they're going to get out of school with an engineering degree and their career will be safe. But once they have their feet wet, they'll see that there are other people getting the same degrees in other countries, and they're willing to work for a fraction of the price.

That is not true in the tech industry. Maybe in industry with established products where you can just sit back and sell same old thing with little R&D, but not tech.
If you don't spend good money to recruit and retain good talent, your projects will never ship, you will have nothing to sell, and you will go out of business. You can show all the powerpoint slides and do all the beancounting you want, unless an engineer designs that gizmo you want to sell, you will be out on the street. And if you think you can just say, hey buddy in Bangalore, design this for me for fraction of the price, well guess what? Intel tried that. They ended up closing or scaling down their office there.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Special K


So would that entail working hard for a few years, getting an MBA at a good school, and then either moving into some type of management position, or changing careers entirely?

You have to keep in mind that there are a lot more engineers than managers who manage the engineers. You'll be fighting for that same spot with everyone.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Pretty much the norm in Silicon Valley. In a lot of companies there is a two track system, manager and individual contributor. If you are a guru in the field the company wants to compete in, you will be bringing in major money.
Also, Intel just had a big layoff targeting managers.
It may also be surprising to you that an engineering background is very helpful in getting into business school. A lot of electrical engineers I know moved on to Whartons and Chicagos and Stanford Business schools after working a few years. Even more move on to financial services and consulting companies. The most important part of an engineering education is not the subject matter, it's the rigorous way of thinking and solving problems. Which is why people with engineering educations often tend to do well in other fields.

And I still say you are pointing out the exception and not the norm. Engineers generally aren't able to make good business decisions because they suffer tunnel vision. they're grunts. expendable labor. Sure there are diamonds and really "get it", but that is the exception and not the norm.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Special K


So would that entail working hard for a few years, getting an MBA at a good school, and then either moving into some type of management position, or changing careers entirely?

You have to keep in mind that there are a lot more engineers than managers who manage the engineers. You'll be fighting for that same spot with everyone.

Well true, but it's not like there aren't a lot of business majors out there. More than engineering I would imagine. It's not like a business degree guarantees you a high level position. I'm sure for every high level manager there are plenty of business majors who are stuck in bean counting jobs for whatever reason. I can't imagine they are much better off than the engineers.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: senseamp

That is not true in the tech industry. Maybe in industry with established products where you can just sit back and sell same old thing with little R&D, but not tech.
If you don't spend good money to recruit and retain good talent, your projects will never ship, you will have nothing to sell, and you will go out of business. You can show all the powerpoint slides and do all the beancounting you want, unless an engineer designs that gizmo you want to sell, you will be out on the street. And if you think you can just say, hey buddy in Bangalore, design this for me for fraction of the price, well guess what? Intel tried that. They ended up closing or scaling down their office there.

I think you missed the point I'm trying to make.

I know you have to constantly innovate, but that innovation does not have to occur in the US. A multinational company does not care where their R&D department is, they just want the job to get done for the least amount of money.

1: there are a lot more people in China and India than there are in the US.
2. they work for a fraction of the wage
3. For the same money, you will find a better engineer over there than you will here. Do you think a top-notch engineer will want to work for $40,000 a year here? I bet you'll get the cream of the crop for $40k over there.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Special K

Well true, but it's not like there aren't a lot of business majors out there. More than engineering I would imagine. It's not like a business degree guarantees you a high level position. I'm sure for every high level manager there are plenty of business majors who are stuck in bean counting jobs for whatever reason. I can't imagine they are much better off than the engineers.

Since management seems to be the only next step in an engineer's career path, I'd try to get the business degree on top of the engineering degree. Spend the extra two years at school, and that way you'll have a step up on the other engineers fighting for the same job when they want to move up.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Special K

Well true, but it's not like there aren't a lot of business majors out there. More than engineering I would imagine. It's not like a business degree guarantees you a high level position. I'm sure for every high level manager there are plenty of business majors who are stuck in bean counting jobs for whatever reason. I can't imagine they are much better off than the engineers.

Since management seems to be the only next step in an engineer's career path, I'd try to get the business degree on top of the engineering degree. Spend the extra two years at school, and that way you'll have a step up on the other engineers fighting for the same job when they want to move up.

Right, although from what I gather, I would have to work for at least a few years as an engineer before being seriously considered for a position at a good business school, corrrect? I take it the recommendations of your managers (along with experience) would be the primary factor in admission?

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
Pretty much the norm in Silicon Valley. In a lot of companies there is a two track system, manager and individual contributor. If you are a guru in the field the company wants to compete in, you will be bringing in major money.
Also, Intel just had a big layoff targeting managers.
It may also be surprising to you that an engineering background is very helpful in getting into business school. A lot of electrical engineers I know moved on to Whartons and Chicagos and Stanford Business schools after working a few years. Even more move on to financial services and consulting companies. The most important part of an engineering education is not the subject matter, it's the rigorous way of thinking and solving problems. Which is why people with engineering educations often tend to do well in other fields.

And I still say you are pointing out the exception and not the norm. Engineers generally aren't able to make good business decisions because they suffer tunnel vision. they're grunts. expendable labor. Sure there are diamonds and really "get it", but that is the exception and not the norm.

Umm, no. Electrical engineering is Logic, Math, and Control. Those happen to be very useful in a lot of fields, including business. So if you think your job is going to be safe from an engineer should engineering jobs move overseas, you are sadly mistaken Engineer can almost always go back to school and learn a new profession. The mentality is if someone can handle engineering, they can handle pretty much anything, so engineers generally do good on test scores, and they are desirable college candidates. It is a lot harder for non engineers to learn engineering.
And if you don't think managers are expandable, look at what happened at Intel a few weeks back. Too many managers per engineer, bam, 1000 managers fired in an instance. Not because they did something wrong, nope, just ratio got too high. Nothing personal, strictly business.

 

[thepd7]

1. Business undergrads trying to manage engineers are not going far, I guarantee it. Why? because you can't manage people well who are doing something thats above your head.

2. I agree that engineering hits a dead end at senior engineer ($80-$100k depending on company and seniority), thats why I am getting an MBA. If you read my original post berating business majors I talk specifically of UNDERGRAD, not people who learn a skill and then get an MBA to complement it/move up.

3. The day engineering jobs at Raytheon/Rockwall Collins/Lockheed Martin/Bell Helicopter/any other defense contractor gets outsourced is the day hell freezes over. I took a tour of a Raytheon plant and you had to be a citizen just to do that, let alone see any circuit diagrams. So my job is going no where.

4. If the engineering jobs are getting outsourced and you are talking about how awesome you are and how you are moving up by managing these engineers, what do you think is going to happen to you when they are no longer there? Are there not business majors in India? Your logic astounds me. Engineers solve problems, not just draw circuits. So do managers.

5. I promise you that a business undergrad major from a non top25-top50 program is going to have a much harder time getting a job than an EE major from any but the suckiest engr schools.