CNN TV: Appeals Court Finds Pledge Unconstitutional

[EDiT]

Originally posted by: Queasy
I love these threads where everyone responds "You're an idiot."

LOL. I'm just putting off doing real work. Maybe I'll leave now. It's not like we're going to suddenly all agree.

 

[Lucky]

read my sig...that's how it should be.

 

[UDT89]

Originally posted by: Queasy
I love these threads where everyone responds "You're an idiot."

off topic:

Excellent sig man. thats too cute.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: UDT89
i guess many people forget how this country was founded. it was mostly christian europeans finding new settlement.

It took a while for America to turn into the melting pot we currently are.

The pledge is part of your heritage and our history. You dont like it, tough. Move somewhere where their pledge fits your needs.

The words "Under God" weren't included until the Red Scare, actually the Scare of Joe McCarthy, swept the Nation in the early 50's.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Queasy
I love these threads where everyone responds "You're an idiot."

You're an idiot. :|

😉

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: notfred

Originally posted by: shinerburke
Oh good grief....first off how do you get that it's referring to a Christian God? God is God is God is God no matter what religion you worship or what name you call him/her. Second....how are schoolchildren being punished for not saying it?

God is not "God" no matter what religion you believe. The only religion that I know of that refers to thier diety as "God" are Christians. Jews have Yahweh, Muslims have Allah, Buddihsts have Budda, Hindu's have Ganesha, many religions have several gods, which would make "under god" incorrect, and athiests have no gods, which also makes under god incorrect for thier religion (if you want to call it that).

Go back and read EDiT's post about getting sent to the principle's office for not saying the pledge.

GOD

n 1: the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=GOD

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: yowolabi

Originally posted by: shinerburke
They are trying to say it is illegal because it mentions God. They are wrong and need to read The Constitution. Basically what it says is that the government shall not create a state religion. It doesn't say there cannot be religious observances in Federal building, government dealings, etc, etc, etc.... The people that do not understand that need to be forced to take an 8th grade civics class.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

I've had 8th grade civics classes and beyond, and I disagree with your interpretation of the Constitution.

It doesn't say that "the government shall not create a state religion", any more than it says "government and religion should be completely separate at all times" , and if it did there wouldn't be a debate at all.

One can reasonably look at the words of the Constitution and conclude that it expresses that government and religion should be separate, which makes your arrogance and repeated references to 8th grade civics classes unjustified.

What do you think "establishment of religion" means? To establish a religion would mean to set up a religion as the state religion. It does not mean that all mention of any type or religion is unconstitutional. I'm sorry but The Constitution says what it says for a reason. The people who wrote it were very deliberate in the choosing of words. Tell me again how it says that government and religion should be seperate at all times.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: BD2003
Call it on a technicality if you want. But I dont believe in god, I'm supposed to have freedom of choice and religion in this country, so why the hell should I or anyone else have to recite that BS?

If a belief in god is a requirement for alliegience to this country than I pledge none.

I stopped saying it in high school because of the mention of god too. I always thought that countries like North Korea or Iraq needed to require their citizens to say a pledge. What is the purpose of a loyaty pledge in a republic?

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: MemnochtheDevil

Originally posted by: shinerburke
Separation of church and state only means that the government cannot establish a state religion. Need an example to help get it through your skull? Here you go. If the government were to come out and say that the religion of the USA was Baptist and everyone had to be Baptist that would be unconstitutional.

It also means that government institutions (public schools) cannot require everyone to stand up and say a pledge that involves a diety. Or so several supreme court rulings say. Government can not support or promote one religion above others. Personally, I grew up with this version and will continue to say it, but I also remember kids being disciplined for not saying the pledge.

It shouldn't have been changed in the first place but congress in their infinite short attention span did change it ages ago. Wouldn't you have a problem with your child being required to ask Zeus (or insert other wierd diety here) for protection for his nation in class? Thats what some people face now. The constitution and the bill of rights were put in place to protect everyone's rights.

The guy who started it is a nut but he has a valid arguement.

If children were being forced to say Zeus or something similar where a name was used then yes it would be unconstitutional. The word God does not refer to one particular deity, it can refer to any deity that you choose to apply it to.

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: notfred

Originally posted by: mpitts
They should just change it to "one nation, under jebus".

I think they should change it to "One Nation, under Allah" and then all the poeple saying "It's fine the way it is" would understand why other people don't like hearing it say God.

"Under God" was meant to imply a higher being of morality. But, I can understand other people's feelings on this because American English Christianity uses "God" to refer to the Christian God. So instead of stripping God out of the pledge, why not change it something more palatable for everyone...

"Under Sovereignty"
"Under Morality"
"Under Good"
"Under Goodness"
"Under Faith"

etc.

Now that would be suitable for all Religious Gods, but also Atheists.

How about we restore the Pledge to its original language, One nation, indivisible. Under anything is not needed.

 

[XZeroII]

I think it's sad how all the Athiests think that religion should be taken out of every aspect of our lives and anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. Then they claim that Religious people are the one that are forcing this and that upon others. I don't care how you say the pledge of allegiance. I don't care if you start cursing Michael Jackson in the middle of it. As long as you are sincere in your pledge to uphold the constitution of the US, then it's fine. Who cares about a stupid word or 2? Athiests get all bent out of shape any time someone says the "G" word and they feel that their rights are being infringed upon for having to hear it. This is the land of freedom. Let people believe whatever they want. Let people pray where they want. Let people say the pledge how they want. Get off your high horse and accept that other people in this country believe something different than you and that doesn't make them wrong.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: EDiT

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: EDiT

Originally posted by: maladroit
Why is it illegal, nobody forces you to say it? God these stupid morons making issues about the most meaningless tripe, I can't stand it.

Have you gone to school lately? I was in school during Bush Senior's oil war, and got sent to the office several times for refusing to stand and pledge. I'm sure it hasn't changed much since then.

Boy you trained straight from the leftist hate America manual, did you? Your reference to an oil war gives you away. That is the most tired, ineffectual, and false arguments ever. Iraq invades another country and it is an oil war.....

Actually, I love America. I just hate what the religious right and large corporations are doing to it.

Well, we're even then cause I dislike what leftist nutsoid organizations, socialists, and individuals bigoted against religion are doing to this country.

 

[dmcowen674]

The Constitution itself is Unconstitutional. <---------- I bet in today's Court climate, if someone brought a Lawsuit to claim exactly that, he or she would win and the whole concept and Country of the United States would be thrown out.

 

[dhans1]

I am a stern beleiver in seperation of Chruch and State. That said, however, history has proven that all great nations have certain "large issue" things in common: a common language, a common boarder, a common enemy, and a common religion. The latter part is why there are pretty obvious Christain undertones in America besides that fact that Christianity is the dominant religion.

The great melting pot is a fine idea when taken as a general rule but wouldn't work if taken to it's absolute true definition. There has to be common threads as a nation for it to thrive or even exist over time. Let's get real here because there will always be religion. If it wasn't Christianity it would be some other religion that was dominant here. We should be greatfull that we are "stuck" with Chritianity because it could be a lot worse given the other alternatives out there.

Should kids be forced to say "under God" in the classroom? Maybe not, but as Red said, if they're not forced to say it is it really that big of a deal if the Supreme Court rules that it IS constitutional? What's next, change the money too? Does it really effect your daily life that much?

 

[nord1899]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: yowolabi

Originally posted by: shinerburke
They are trying to say it is illegal because it mentions God. They are wrong and need to read The Constitution. Basically what it says is that the government shall not create a state religion. It doesn't say there cannot be religious observances in Federal building, government dealings, etc, etc, etc.... The people that do not understand that need to be forced to take an 8th grade civics class.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

I've had 8th grade civics classes and beyond, and I disagree with your interpretation of the Constitution.

It doesn't say that "the government shall not create a state religion", any more than it says "government and religion should be completely separate at all times" , and if it did there wouldn't be a debate at all.

One can reasonably look at the words of the Constitution and conclude that it expresses that government and religion should be separate, which makes your arrogance and repeated references to 8th grade civics classes unjustified.

What do you think "establishment of religion" means? To establish a religion would mean to set up a religion as the state religion. It does not mean that all mention of any type or religion is unconstitutional. I'm sorry but The Constitution says what it says for a reason. The people who wrote it were very deliberate in the choosing of words. Tell me again how it says that government and religion should be seperate at all times.

prohibiting the free exercise thereof

By including the word "God" in the pledge, you are prohibiting the free exercise of religion by non christian-judeo worshipers or atheists. They are now required to observe the christian-judeo God. And yes, the pledge was required when I went to school until 96 when I graduated. No idea on any punishment for it though. And I always just mumbled it anyway.

 

[jahawkin]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: UDT89
i guess many people forget how this country was founded. it was mostly christian europeans finding new settlement.

It took a while for America to turn into the melting pot we currently are.

The pledge is part of your heritage and our history. You dont like it, tough. Move somewhere where their pledge fits your needs.

The words "Under God" weren't included until the Red Scare, actually the Scare of Joe McCarthy, swept the Nation in the early 50's.

And the pledge was written by a socialist and an athiest. Gotta distance yourself from that nut......

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: Queasy
The worst part of this is...we'll have to hear more about Michael Newdow, the idiot who originally filed the complaint.

The problem is the phrase "Under God" was added, the pledge hasn't always been that way, and it ammounts to government sponsorship of religion (the freedom to practice any religion is the freedom not to practice any religion at all). I don't have a problem with the current pledge, and it is pointless litigation IMO being that I don't believe in political correctness.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
I think it's sad how all the Athiests think that religion should be taken out of every aspect of our lives and anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. Then they claim that Religious people are the one that are forcing this and that upon others. I don't care how you say the pledge of allegiance. I don't care if you start cursing Michael Jackson in the middle of it. As long as you are sincere in your pledge to uphold the constitution of the US, then it's fine. Who cares about a stupid word or 2? Athiests get all bent out of shape any time someone says the "G" word and they feel that their rights are being infringed upon for having to hear it. This is the land of freedom. Let people believe whatever they want. Let people pray where they want. Let people say the pledge how they want. Get off your high horse and accept that other people in this country believe something different than you and that doesn't make them wrong.

So you have a problem with returning the Pledge to it's original form? The legacy of adding the words "Under God" is one of fear. Why not purge our POA of that sorry time in our history?

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: dhans1

Should kids be forced to say "under God" in the classroom? Maybe not, but as Red said, if they're not forced to say it is it really that big of a deal if the Supreme Court rules that it IS constitutional? What's next, change the money too? Does it really effect your daily life that much?

And this is where the 9th circuit's decision makes sense to me. No, they're not forced to say it. But, not saying it forces individuals to make a statement about their personal religious, or lack of religious beliefs, which they should not be forced to do.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
I think it's sad how all the Athiests think that religion should be taken out of every aspect of our lives and anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. Then they claim that Religious people are the one that are forcing this and that upon others. I don't care how you say the pledge of allegiance. I don't care if you start cursing Michael Jackson in the middle of it. As long as you are sincere in your pledge to uphold the constitution of the US, then it's fine. Who cares about a stupid word or 2? Athiests get all bent out of shape any time someone says the "G" word and they feel that their rights are being infringed upon for having to hear it. This is the land of freedom. Let people believe whatever they want. Let people pray where they want. Let people say the pledge how they want. Get off your high horse and accept that other people in this country believe something different than you and that doesn't make them wrong.

The problem isnt having to hear it. The problem is being forced to say it. I can tell you without question that I and anyone else in my class would have been sent to the principals office for not reciting the pledge word for word.

And this isnt just a song like the star spangled banner. This is the official pledge of allegiance. This is what you have to recite and pledge to if you want to be a US citizen.

 

[jahawkin]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: EDiT

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: EDiT

Originally posted by: maladroit
Why is it illegal, nobody forces you to say it? God these stupid morons making issues about the most meaningless tripe, I can't stand it.

Have you gone to school lately? I was in school during Bush Senior's oil war, and got sent to the office several times for refusing to stand and pledge. I'm sure it hasn't changed much since then.

Boy you trained straight from the leftist hate America manual, did you? Your reference to an oil war gives you away. That is the most tired, ineffectual, and false arguments ever. Iraq invades another country and it is an oil war.....

Actually, I love America. I just hate what the religious right and large corporations are doing to it.

Well, we're even then cause I dislike what leftist nutsoid organizations, socialists, and individuals bigoted against religion are doing to this country.

And you know that leftist nutsoid organizations, socialists, and individuals bigoted against religion have sooooo much more power and influence in this country than the religious right and large corporations.......Wait a minute....

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: XZeroII
I think it's sad how all the Athiests think that religion should be taken out of every aspect of our lives and anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. Then they claim that Religious people are the one that are forcing this and that upon others. I don't care how you say the pledge of allegiance. I don't care if you start cursing Michael Jackson in the middle of it. As long as you are sincere in your pledge to uphold the constitution of the US, then it's fine. Who cares about a stupid word or 2? Athiests get all bent out of shape any time someone says the "G" word and they feel that their rights are being infringed upon for having to hear it. This is the land of freedom. Let people believe whatever they want. Let people pray where they want. Let people say the pledge how they want. Get off your high horse and accept that other people in this country believe something different than you and that doesn't make them wrong.

So you have a problem with returning the Pledge to it's original form? The legacy of adding the words "Under God" is one of fear. Why not purge our POA of that sorry time in our history?

What? Reread my post.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: jahawkin

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: EDiT

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: EDiT

Originally posted by: maladroit
Why is it illegal, nobody forces you to say it? God these stupid morons making issues about the most meaningless tripe, I can't stand it.

Have you gone to school lately? I was in school during Bush Senior's oil war, and got sent to the office several times for refusing to stand and pledge. I'm sure it hasn't changed much since then.

Boy you trained straight from the leftist hate America manual, did you? Your reference to an oil war gives you away. That is the most tired, ineffectual, and false arguments ever. Iraq invades another country and it is an oil war.....

Actually, I love America. I just hate what the religious right and large corporations are doing to it.

Well, we're even then cause I dislike what leftist nutsoid organizations, socialists, and individuals bigoted against religion are doing to this country.

And you know that leftist nutsoid organizations, socialists, and individuals bigoted against religion have so much more power and influence than the religious right and large corporations.......Wait a minute....

Considering they are a major driving force in taking away Individuals property rights in the name of their new religion, environmentalism....yes, they have quite a bit of power and influence.

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: shinerburke


Sorry, wrong. Go back to 8th grade and try to learn it right this time.

You are the one who is adding things to the Constitution that aren't there, just as most of the gun advocates like to forget the part about a well regulated militia.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

"respecting an establishment of religion", does not stop at setting up a new one, as "establishment" is also in referral to one that already exists(as per the meaning of the word).

 

[MemnochtheDevil]

If children were being forced to say Zeus or something similar where a name was used then yes it would be unconstitutional. The word God does not refer to one particular deity, it can refer to any deity that you choose to apply it to.

No, God is a term only used by a few religions, most have other names or terms for their diety(s). This argument is pointless anyways, what if you believe in no god? Or believe to utter the word "God" out loud is some sort of sin? Congress shouldn't have inserted their religion into a work that was used in public schools, or any other government institution.

By admitting you'd have a problem with saying the pledge if it mentioned any other diety but yours, you've revealed why this is unconstitutional. This is the argument that changed my mind when I started reading about all this.

And I still think congress back then made several incredibly stupid decisions. The witch hunts aimed at oppressing those different went against the reasons this country was founded.