CNN: Fact Check, Are American Cars Really That Bad?

[dullard]

The whole idea of lumping together part of one companies line up, averaging some of the vehicle's reliability in that part, and comparing the averages to another company doesn't sit well with me. Take the Consumer Reports version for example:

Ford: A study in extremes... The 2004 Ford Mustang, for example, was the most reliable domestic car in our survey...on a par with the best from Toyota and Honda... But the Lincoln Navigator... was tied with the redesigned Nissan Quest as the the least reliable vehicle.

So, lumping together a reliable vehicle, an unreliable vehicle, and calling the resulting average good just doesn't really give any useful information. And, it appears it isn't a weighted average. It looks like Lincoln got the same weight as Pontiac. But, honestly, do both brands sell the exact same number of vehicles? I hightly doubt it.

There are other fundamental problems. The Land Rover was so bad, it is off the charts of the Consumer Reports numbers. But the CNN JD Power summary doesn't even include it.

You just have to look at vehicles one by one. You cannot lump them into an average.

Same goes with lumping different companies from the same country. Why average Toyota in together with any other Japanese maker? Does that give any useful information? Are you buying an a vehicle that is Toyota on the left half and Honda on the right half and Nissan in the back? No! So why average them together.

 

[Viper GTS]

I wouldn't count late model Nissan/Infiniti as being quality vehicles, everybody loves to lump them in with Honda/Toyota & it simply isn't the case.

Subaru is definitely up there on the reliability scale though, perhaps not quite on Toyota's level but they certainly aren't "riding the coattails" of Honda & Toyota.

Viper GTS

 

[GTaudiophile]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
I wouldn't count late model Nissan/Infiniti as being quality vehicles, everybody loves to lump them in with Honda/Toyota & it simply isn't the case.

Subaru is definitely up there on the reliability scale though, perhaps not quite on Toyota's level but they certainly aren't "riding the coattails" of Honda & Toyota.

Viper GTS

Right. If you watch Top Gear, Subaru is nearly God-like in their reliability.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Wow.

2005 ratings (lower is better)

GM/Ford average: 211.9
Japan cars average: 236.6

yeap.

Problem is reputation. Poeple think GM/Ford suck just because they are Ford/GM etc.

True. I use to be a full time auto tech, had my own shop, and when people would ask I would say go with GM. Does not have any more problems on average then other car makers but is much easier to repair, parts are cheaper, and much easier to find when you do need them.

I have switched my whole family to gm from Chevy Z28, GMC 1500 pickup, pontiac grand am, saturn wagon, etc... no major problems out of the whole bunch. Mind you I make sure they are taken care of. A large % of problem I see with cars today are by user fault, not car maker fault.

 

[Ferocious]

lol

This topic reminded me of a co-worker who bought a 2005 Nissan truck last spring.

It was spending so much time in the garage last summer for repairs that I actually thought he got rid of it and bought a car (his rental car). What a POS!

 

[tfinch2]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Wow.

2005 ratings (lower is better)

GM/Ford average: 211.9
Japan cars average: 236.6

yeap.

Problem is reputation. Poeple think GM/Ford suck just because they are Ford/GM etc.

True. I use to be a full time auto tech, had my own shop, and when people would ask I would say go with GM. Does not have any more problems on average then other car makers but is much easier to repair, parts are cheaper, and much easier to find when you do need them.

I have switched my whole family to gm from Chevy Z28, GMC 1500 pickup, pontiac grand am, saturn wagon, etc... no major problems out of the whole bunch. Mind you I make sure they are taken care of. A large % of problem I see with cars today are by user fault, not car maker fault.

Yep. When I worked in auto parts it was funny to see the customer's face when an alternator for their honda/toyota/mazda econobox was a 300-400 special order part.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Wow.

2005 ratings (lower is better)

GM/Ford average: 211.9
Japan cars average: 236.6

yeap.

Problem is reputation. Poeple think GM/Ford suck just because they are Ford/GM etc.

This forum being a perfect example
I find the disparity between Lincoln, Mercury, and Ford somewhat puzzling though.

 

[SampSon]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
I wouldn't count late model Nissan/Infiniti as being quality vehicles, everybody loves to lump them in with Honda/Toyota & it simply isn't the case.

Subaru is definitely up there on the reliability scale though, perhaps not quite on Toyota's level but they certainly aren't "riding the coattails" of Honda & Toyota.

Viper GTS

The issues that come up with the wrx and sti brings their reliability down.
People beat the ever living sh!t out of them.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Wow.

2005 ratings (lower is better)

GM/Ford average: 211.9
Japan cars average: 236.6

yeap.

Problem is reputation. Poeple think GM/Ford suck just because they are Ford/GM etc.

True. I use to be a full time auto tech, had my own shop, and when people would ask I would say go with GM. Does not have any more problems on average then other car makers but is much easier to repair, parts are cheaper, and much easier to find when you do need them.

I have switched my whole family to gm from Chevy Z28, GMC 1500 pickup, pontiac grand am, saturn wagon, etc... no major problems out of the whole bunch. Mind you I make sure they are taken care of. A large % of problem I see with cars today are by user fault, not car maker fault.

yeap.

I have owned both ford and honda's. I have had LESS problems with the fords then i did with the 3 accords i have owned. Though i did like how the older (hatchback style) accords looked and drove.

Last 3 cars i have bought have been Fords (2 escorts and a Taurus). We are in the market for either a van or a crossover vehicle. We are thinking either the Freestar or the HHR. I want a magnum but wife said no =(

 

[Shlong]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
I wouldn't count late model Nissan/Infiniti as being quality vehicles, everybody loves to lump them in with Honda/Toyota & it simply isn't the case.

Subaru is definitely up there on the reliability scale though, perhaps not quite on Toyota's level but they certainly aren't "riding the coattails" of Honda & Toyota.

Viper GTS

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4020223

Nissan/Infiniti's sedans/coupes usually receive very high marks, while some SUV's/trucks don't.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Read the article again! They list several reeason why people have a bad impression of GM/Ford. History plays a part, but I do believe their reliability has indeed improved. What has not improved?

Reviews: GM and Ford vehicles haven't always exuded the quality that may have been hiding in there somewhere. Cheap-feeling interior materials, raspy-sounding engines and gap-filled construction didn't give potential buyers the feeling of confidence that even lesser Japanese brands manage to carry off.

That's it! How can a KIA or Hyundai have a nicer interior than a $80K Cadillac XLR? But it does IMO! The interior is where people spend most of their time in the car, and GM/Ford have done LITTLE to improve their cheap plastics and cheap designs over the years. And let's not even get started on exterior design!

Cadillac XLR interior.
Hyundai Sonata interior.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: SampSon
JD power reliability scores are always "skewed" by the style of product and it's consumers.

If that is the case then why is it the defacto measuring stick for the manufacturers themselves? That's what they base their targets on - JD Power surveys.

Are you saying that manufacturers have been using faulty data?

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: tfinch2

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Wow.

2005 ratings (lower is better)

GM/Ford average: 211.9
Japan cars average: 236.6

yeap.

Problem is reputation. Poeple think GM/Ford suck just because they are Ford/GM etc.

True. I use to be a full time auto tech, had my own shop, and when people would ask I would say go with GM. Does not have any more problems on average then other car makers but is much easier to repair, parts are cheaper, and much easier to find when you do need them.

I have switched my whole family to gm from Chevy Z28, GMC 1500 pickup, pontiac grand am, saturn wagon, etc... no major problems out of the whole bunch. Mind you I make sure they are taken care of. A large % of problem I see with cars today are by user fault, not car maker fault.

Yep. When I worked in auto parts it was funny to see the customer's face when an alternator for their honda/toyota/mazda econobox was a 300-400 special order part.

i dunno who hijacked GTAudiophiles account, but yea..

if you ask almost anyone in the parts industry, and a LOT of technicians, there are a lot of problems with Foreign as well as Domestic, currently in todays world, the only thing hurting GM and Ford is History. same thing that is hurting Hyundai. Hyundai is slowly shedding that, and i fell GM/Ford will as well.

 

[zoiks]

My next commute car will definitely be domestic.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: tfinch2

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Wow.

2005 ratings (lower is better)

GM/Ford average: 211.9
Japan cars average: 236.6

yeap.

Problem is reputation. Poeple think GM/Ford suck just because they are Ford/GM etc.

True. I use to be a full time auto tech, had my own shop, and when people would ask I would say go with GM. Does not have any more problems on average then other car makers but is much easier to repair, parts are cheaper, and much easier to find when you do need them.

I have switched my whole family to gm from Chevy Z28, GMC 1500 pickup, pontiac grand am, saturn wagon, etc... no major problems out of the whole bunch. Mind you I make sure they are taken care of. A large % of problem I see with cars today are by user fault, not car maker fault.

Yep. When I worked in auto parts it was funny to see the customer's face when an alternator for their honda/toyota/mazda econobox was a 300-400 special order part.

i dunno who hijacked GTAudiophiles account, but yea..

if you ask almost anyone in the parts industry, and a LOT of technicians, there are a lot of problems with Foreign as well as Domestic, currently in todays world, the only thing hurting GM and Ford is History. same thing that is hurting Hyundai. Hyundai is slowly shedding that, and i fell GM/Ford will as well.

Hyundai is a good example of reputation hurting business. They are good cars now. They look nice and actually have good realablity.

But many will not buy them based on the repatation they have.

 

[Syrch]

isuzu FTW!

 

[SampSon]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Read the article again! They list several reeason why people have a bad impression of GM/Ford. History plays a part, but I do believe their reliability has indeed improved. What has not improved?

Reviews: GM and Ford vehicles haven't always exuded the quality that may have been hiding in there somewhere. Cheap-feeling interior materials, raspy-sounding engines and gap-filled construction didn't give potential buyers the feeling of confidence that even lesser Japanese brands manage to carry off.

That's it! How can a KIA or Hyundai have a nicer interior than a $80K Cadillac XLR? But it does IMO! The interior is where people spend most of their time in the car, and GM/Ford have done LITTLE to improve their cheap plastics and cheap designs over the years. And let's not even get started on exterior design!

Cadillac XLR interior.
Hyundai Sonata interior.

amen, all the issues they listed have kept me away from american cars for years.

Anyone can build a decent engine that will last forever, it's all in the maintenence and how you treat the car. Though no amount of maintenence is going to change the god awful interior of the grand prix/g6, malibu or all of the saturns.

Another thing is the availability of standard transmission in American cars. Most do not offer the option of a standard transmission in their vehicles and that basically kills the deal for me. I really like the Dodge Magnum, but it's only available in automatic. I sure as hell don't want to drive a 340hp v8 with a slushbox on it.

Next is the engines, the v6's GM and ford uses are notoriously lethargic and sound like a box of marbles. My subaru's little flat four sounds, feels and drives better than most comparable GM engines.

I'd love to buy American, but they simply don't offer something I'd want to drive. Except a few higher end cars like a Corvette.

If that is the case then why is it the defacto measuring stick for the manufacturers themselves? That's what they base their targets on - JD Power surveys.

Are you saying that manufacturers have been using faulty data?

No, but thoes numbers are based on how many times a new car buyer brings their car in for repairs. When you have a company, like Subaru, that sells high powered turbocharged cars you're going to have people beating the living crap out of them and bringing them in for repairs. When you have a company like Buick that barely offers something beyond you everyday grandmother car they probably arn't going to run into a huge amount of issues on a daily basis. On top of that a recall or a major problem with a part design can push thoes numbers very high.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

One thing I have noticed is that buyers of semi-luxury brands rarely complain. Some don't complain because they feel as if they don't have the right to. Another reason most don't notice problems worth reporting is that they are more than likely to take their cars into the service department when told to. Same goes for many older folks.

My Infiniti, if I allowed my dealer to do so, would cost me more in 16K of maintenance than my Miata did in 60K or my Stratus had in 90K. Hell the damn dealer makes is almost more expensive than my motorcycle (K1200RS) that has 200-300 dollar maintenance intervals at 6k

 

[AnyMal]

I didn't see my Yugo on that list

 

[spidey07]

Sampson, I understand your point. And logically it makes sense.

But that is really how initial quality is measured and what all manufacturers stive for. So we can explain away the measurement with a number of "excuses", but it is what it is.

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Read the article again! They list several reeason why people have a bad impression of GM/Ford. History plays a part, but I do believe their reliability has indeed improved. What has not improved?

Reviews: GM and Ford vehicles haven't always exuded the quality that may have been hiding in there somewhere. Cheap-feeling interior materials, raspy-sounding engines and gap-filled construction didn't give potential buyers the feeling of confidence that even lesser Japanese brands manage to carry off.

That's it! How can a KIA or Hyundai have a nicer interior than a $80K Cadillac XLR? But it does IMO! The interior is where people spend most of their time in the car, and GM/Ford have done LITTLE to improve their cheap plastics and cheap designs over the years. And let's not even get started on exterior design!

Cadillac XLR interior.
Hyundai Sonata interior.

amen, all the issues they listed have kept me away from american cars for years.

Anyone can build a decent engine that will last forever, it's all in the maintenence and how you treat the car. Though no amount of maintenence is going to change the god awful interior of the grand prix/g6, malibu or all of the saturns.

Another thing is the availability of standard transmission in American cars. Most do not offer the option of a standard transmission in their vehicles and that basically kills the deal for me. I really like the Dodge Magnum, but it's only available in automatic. I sure as hell don't want to drive a 340hp v8 with a slushbox on it.

Next is the engines, the v6's GM and ford uses are notoriously lethargic and sound like a box of marbles. My subaru's little flat four sounds, feels and drives better than most comparable GM engines.

I'd love to buy American, but they simply don't offer something I'd want to drive. Except a few higher end cars like a Corvette.

If that is the case then why is it the defacto measuring stick for the manufacturers themselves? That's what they base their targets on - JD Power surveys.

Are you saying that manufacturers have been using faulty data?

No, but thoes numbers are based on how many times a new car buyer brings their car in for repairs. When you have a company, like Subaru, that sells high powered turbocharged cars you're going to have people beating the living crap out of them and bringing them in for repairs. When you have a company like Buick that barely offers something beyond you everyday grandmother car they probably arn't going to run into a huge amount of issues on a daily basis. On top of that a recall or a major problem with a part design can push thoes numbers very high.

so, now we have chair lounging picture dash strokers too??

nice.

also, the G6 has one nice interior, i dunno what car you sat in that you can compare the G6 interior to the Grand Prix interior.

you know, standard transmissions arent that popular in the U.S. hence why GM doesnt offer them much.

yes, your Boxer engine sondes different than a V engine because thats the nature of the beast, i still dont see how the engine makes the drive different, the transmission is what makes the drive different, and GM has the 4 speed auto mastered.

 

[DVK916]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
I've always thought that the Japanese Auto Market was riding on the coat-tails of Toyota and Honda,
and that all the other vehicles of Japanese origin were bogus players, contributing nothing and stealing glory.

This pretty much confirms that. With the exception of Honda and Toyota, most 'American Cars'
palced better than the Jap Crap.

There was a report out last month that the worst vehicle (other than the Hummer) was the Infinity SUV.
absolutely terrible vehicle.

According to this Nissan Brand Infiniti ranks higher than both Honda, and Acura. More like Honda is riding the coat tails of Toyota.

 

[daniel1113]

Does anyone have a link to the JDP rankings over the past 10 years or so?

 

[Armitage]

The JD Powers survey doesn't mean much to me for a few reasons.

1. As I understand it, it only counts reported problems/vehicle. Nothing about severity. So loose knob counts the same as a major engine problem that keeps it in the shop for a week.
2. It only looks at the first 3 years - maybe 45K miles tops. I'm more interested in 75K to 150K+ miles.

 

[J Heartless Slick]

I have been thinking about starting a thread asking what would it take to get an import car buyer to buy American, Ford and GM, car.

If I had the cash, I would without hesitation get a Corvette or a Ford GT because of their performance.

Based on my family's experience with American cars, I would have to do a lot of soul searching to risk buying other domestic models.