CNN drives the Chevy Volt

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
I like the Cruze body better. Vaporware it isn't, but it isn't much of an electric car either, unfortunately.

explain?

 

[LTC8K6]

Not much range on battery, not that great fuel economy, $32.5K after rebate. Not much to get excited about.

My drive to work is under 10 miles round trip, so the Volt could work well for me, but it would take forever to recoup the cost over something like a Focus.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Not much range on battery, not that great fuel economy, $32.5K after rebate. Not much to get excited about.

My drive to work is under 10 miles round trip, so the Volt could work well for me, but it would take forever to recoup the cost over something like a Focus.

10 Miles round trip? Who cares? Just buy a V10 dodge ram. It doesn't make any sense to worry about gas costs.

If I were you I'd buy the cheapest easy to fix big old sedan I could find and have bicycle as a backup vehicle. That'd be the cheap way to go.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Not much range on battery, not that great fuel economy, $32.5K after rebate. Not much to get excited about.

My drive to work is under 10 miles round trip, so the Volt could work well for me, but it would take forever to recoup the cost over something like a Focus.

10 Miles round trip? Who cares? Just buy a V10 dodge ram. It doesn't make any sense to worry about gas costs.

If I were you I'd buy the cheapest easy to fix big old sedan I could find and have bicycle as a backup vehicle. That'd be the cheap way to go.

That is a sick irony. I could use this thing because my trips are short. But, because my trips are short, I don't really care about mileage. My second car does about 8000 miles/year, so its gas costs barely matter.

 

[LTC8K6]

10 Miles round trip? Who cares? Just buy a V10 dodge ram.

They were giving away 5.7L Grand Cherokees late last year so I got one. I traded my 1997 Z24 with 46K on it. I also have my 95 Taurus with only 52K on it, and I have a company car that I am allowed to use as my own car.

So not only do I have a 10 mile round trip, I don't really need to use my own car.

If I really try, I might put 4K a year on a car. If I drive back home from NC to PA during that year...which would be 1K

 

[PricklyPete]

You're missing the point if you think the Volt is supposed to work from a financial standpoint. The reality is that any new technology takes some time before it becomes a financial viable option for everyone. The Volt is certainly a new design and unlike any hybrid currently being produced. It is an electric car with a generator tacked on. The fact that they are testing fully electric mules is an indication of that.

This generation will certainly not be viable for anyone trying to save money on their gas bills. This generation was intended for people wanting to be green who would rather spend some money and be able to consume little to no gas at all. GM has already stated that future generations of the Volt (and Voltec platform) are already under development...not to increase the 40 mile range, but the make the car cheaper and a reality for money-conscious shoppers.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: PricklyPete
You're missing the point if you think the Volt is supposed to work from a financial standpoint. The reality is that any new technology takes some time before it becomes a financial viable option for everyone. The Volt is certainly a new design and unlike any hybrid currently being produced. It is an electric car with a generator tacked on. The fact that they are testing fully electric mules is an indication of that.

This generation will certainly not be viable for anyone trying to save money on their gas bills. This generation was intended for people wanting to be green who would rather spend some money and be able to consume little to no gas at all. GM has already stated that future generations of the Volt (and Voltec platform) are already under development...not to increase the 40 mile range, but the make the car cheaper and a reality for money-conscious shoppers.

Yes, and when these cars get cheaper; and everybody has one.. President Obama can finally stop bowing to those saudi kings. Take that you evil arabs!!! .:evil:

 

[LTC8K6]

Then we can all enjoy the brownouts and blackouts from the still unimproved power grid, which is already very shaky...

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
You seem to keep missing the fact that I have given a couple of solutions for acceleration...

And a few good stomps of the gas pedal will drain a small battery, hydraulic accumulators have a relatively small storage capacity. You're oversimplifying the problem. If you could get extremely high efficiency with next to no storage a company would have already done it.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Then we can all enjoy the brownouts and blackouts from the still unimproved power grid, which is already very shaky...

I heard on NPR or maybe some other prog a few days ago that by 2012 expectations are fairly high that the country will start experiencing brownouts, because the appetite for electricity is insatiable and not being ramped up properly in supply.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Then we can all enjoy the brownouts and blackouts from the still unimproved power grid, which is already very shaky...

I heard on NPR or maybe some other prog a few days ago that by 2012 expectations are fairly high that the country will start experiencing brownouts, because the appetite for electricity is insatiable and not being ramped up properly in supply.

because stupid people won't let us build nuclear power plants :|

 

[LTC8K6]

And a few good stomps of the gas pedal will drain a small battery

And a big one. Yep, those 0-60 runs for the Tesla aren't free...undoubtedly fun, but there goes your range and your economy.

Kinda like when you stomp on the accelerator repeatedly in just about any vehicle...it's just that gasoline/diesel is more convenient in that you can carry plenty easily and refill easily.

A small battery recharges quickly, though and a cap can too. IIRC, so does Ford's hydraulic accumulator.

Maybe it'll have two acceleration systems? One will be ready, and one will be charging. When you accelerate enough to deplete one, they will switch off, so the charged one is now on line and the depleted one is charging. Now you can make several full power runs, which should be enough for anyone. The additional system could be optional for speed freaks.

I'm telling you, just grant me a few $B...money is being wasted left and right in staggering amounts anyway, just let me waste some of it...it's only a drop in the bucket and no one knew where most of it was going anyway.

The grandkids are already saddled with the massive debt...might as well use a small amount of it to try a few things.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

And a few good stomps of the gas pedal will drain a small battery

And a big one. Yep, those 0-60 runs for the Tesla aren't free...undoubtedly fun, but there goes your range and your economy.

Kinda like when you stomp on the accelerator repeatedly in just about any vehicle...it's just that gasoline/diesel is more convenient in that you can carry plenty easily and refill easily.

A small battery recharges quickly, though and a cap can too. IIRC, so does Ford's hydraulic accumulator.

Maybe it'll have two acceleration systems? One will be ready, and one will be charging. When you accelerate enough to deplete one, they will switch off, so the charged one is now on line and the depleted one is charging. Now you can make several full power runs, which should be enough for anyone. The additional system could be optional for speed freaks.

I'm telling you, just grant me a few $B...money is being wasted left and right in staggering amounts anyway, just let me waste some of it...it's only a drop in the bucket and no one knew where most of it was going anyway.

The grandkids are already saddled with the massive debt...might as well use a small amount of it to try a few things.

Top Gear managed 55 miles on a single charge with a Roadster

 

[LTC8K6]

Top Gear managed 55 miles on a single charge with a Roadster

So 244 miles is optimistic then? Tesla claims one went 241 miles in a rally, but they don't really say how long it took to travel that 241 miles. They only mention some road speeds of 60, 40, and 20 mph. They mention mountain roads but not how much of the trip was downhill.

**********

Not long ago, the guys at Top Gear had the chance to enjoy a Tesla Roadster (sadly, the video of that much-discussed event is no longer available). Two things Jeremy Clarkston and crew criticized were the Tesla's range and brakes. The Roadster has now made a strong counter-claim about its range. Recently, a Roadster was taken to the Rallye Monte Carlo d'Energies Alternatives where it managed to go 241 miles on a single charge, just about the maximum range the Roadster is rated for (244 miles).

The car ended up being the only EV on the race, which went from Valence, France, to Monaco. The course used highways, where speeds of 90 km/h (60mph) were common, two-lane roads at 60 km/h (40 mph), and some 30 km/h (20 mph) mountain roads. Did the Roadster have a problem? Nope. The drivers didn't even stop to have lunch. The Roadster finally reached Monaco after 387.6 km (241miles), and the indicator said the car could run for another 61 km (38 miles). An absolute record for a production EV.

**********

I like Caddy's version of the Volt:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2...proved-for-production/

 

[StageLeft]

top gear tesla review

LOL one of their cars' brakes break while charging.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

And a few good stomps of the gas pedal will drain a small battery

And a big one. Yep, those 0-60 runs for the Tesla aren't free...undoubtedly fun, but there goes your range and your economy.

Kinda like when you stomp on the accelerator repeatedly in just about any vehicle...it's just that gasoline/diesel is more convenient in that you can carry plenty easily and refill easily.

You missed my point. You said you could use a small efficient engine to power the car that runs like a locomotive (at 100% power all the time) and then a small battery for acceleration. For an engine not to drink gas like crazy running like that you'd have to size it so it only supplied about what you would need to do a nice constant cruise which is surprisingly small. If you stomp on the gas a few times you'll drain the battery and your only source of power will be that tiny little engine that won't be able to accelerate the car from a stop. No one will buy a car where you suddenly run out of power half way through a merge.


If your motor is large enough to supply 100% of the electricity needed even during your heaviest acceleration you could run down the battery to zero and still be able to move the car. Your engine would just run to give you enough power to move when the battery was run down and any excess would be stored in the battery. When the battery was full the engine turns off and you run battery only until you run out of juice again. Like you mentioned before, filling up is simple on gas and diesel because you can get it on demand anywhere.

That's the whole concept of the volt. It runs like an electric car when you can manage it but you still have the convenience of stopping at the gas station to fill up if you don't have enough charge. You also get the benefit of tuning an engine similar to how they tune a locomotive, to be set up to run at full power extremely well and be very efficient.

The energy savings of a locomotive is all because you can run the engine at that single efficient point no matter what RPM the wheels are moving at and you can adjust how much power you're putting out by turning off and on whole engines The engines are such dogs when you're off that point that they'll take minutes to get from idle to operating RPM. They can barely accelerate their own rotating mass when you aren't at that perfect point.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Bignate603
You can't compare a diesel electric to an automobile. The demands for power on locomotives is relatively constant (if you hit a hill you just kick on another engine with it at max power), demands for power on automobile engines is horribly erratic. You need a large amount of power accelerating, a decent amount while cruising, and none while sitting at a light or coasting.

You'd have the engine management system keep the RPM's constant the entire time. The engine would be optimized for that RPM. Remember, you can change the load on an engine and keep it at the same RPM.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
What if the Volt did away with its batteries and just an array of capacitors with enough juice to take a full highway speed brake and through charging/discharging

I agree that capacitors are the way to go. They're much cheaper than the huge batteries and they'd have just enough energy storage capacity to improve efficiency. They'd allow the car to get to highway speeds from a full stop and they'd store the electricity generated while braking.

Remember, you don't really need to be able to drive 40 miles on battery power to improve efficiency. The simple act of using caps to even out the load on the generator (engine) will help.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Bignate603
You can't compare a diesel electric to an automobile. The demands for power on locomotives is relatively constant (if you hit a hill you just kick on another engine with it at max power), demands for power on automobile engines is horribly erratic. You need a large amount of power accelerating, a decent amount while cruising, and none while sitting at a light or coasting.

You'd have the engine management system keep the RPM's constant the entire time. The engine would be optimized for that RPM. Remember, you can change the load on an engine and keep it at the same RPM.

Yes, if you only optimize for that RPM. You'll get some efficiency gains there. However, if you optimize for RPM and a certain amount of power production you'll get even more. For locomotives the advantage of that is so great that they only run the engines at 100% power. If they need anything less than that they literally run heaters to waste the excess energy. There are huge gains in efficiency if you optimize for a single RPM and amount of power output. If you only optimize for RPM you're leaving efficiency on the table.

I agree that capacitors are the way to go. They're much cheaper than the huge batteries and they'd have just enough energy storage capacity to improve efficiency. They'd allow the car to get to highway speeds from a full stop and they'd store the electricity generated while braking. Remember, you don't really need to be able to drive 40 miles on battery power to improve efficiency. The simple act of using caps to even out the load on the generator (engine) will help.

So you'd have to let your car idle for a few minutes to charge up the capacitors before you left? Or would you just drive at 20 mph because your capacitors are out of juice because you accelerated hard and then coasted to a stop a few times between a series of stop lights? The engine would be too small to accelerate from a stop without the energy storage and capacitors have some serious drawbacks.

The problem is significantly more complex than most people understand. The power demands the average driver has are pretty harsh. They want to be able to walk out, turn on their car and get out into stop and go traffic without any drawbacks. This is the exact reason why hybrids don't have insanely tiny engines, the prius has a 1.8 liter engine if I remember correctly. It's because you CAN run the batteries down to zero in some instances and you still need an engine with enough power to be able to move the car when they batteries are dead. And that's with a battery pack that is a decent size. A small battery or capacitor pack would fair significantly worse.

 

[LTC8K6]

You missed my point.

It's just a concept, and it's my concept and it works perfectly in my head and that's all that matters to me.

If you stomp on the gas a few times you'll drain the battery and your only source of power will be that tiny little engine that won't be able to accelerate the car from a stop.

No, I had a system to deal with that scenario specifically, which you apparently didn't read. I even mentioned speed freaks and you apparently still didn't notice.

My idea has no problem dealing with multiple hard acceleration runs.

I'm not looking for anyone's approval, btw. I just need a few $B that probably fell on the ground during the recent $T spending frenzy so I can do some research.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Skoorb
What if the Volt did away with its batteries and just an array of capacitors with enough juice to take a full highway speed brake and through charging/discharging

I agree that capacitors are the way to go. They're much cheaper than the huge batteries and they'd have just enough energy storage capacity to improve efficiency. They'd allow the car to get to highway speeds from a full stop and they'd store the electricity generated while braking.

Remember, you don't really need to be able to drive 40 miles on battery power to improve efficiency. The simple act of using caps to even out the load on the generator (engine) will help.

Improve efficiency by how much? How much gas will a cap save if it gets me up to highway speed, but I end up driving for 20+ minutes? The amount of electricity needed to get to highway speed is far more than you're going to get from stomping the brakes a couple times.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

No, I had a system to deal with that scenario specifically, which you apparently didn't read. I even mentioned speed freaks and you apparently still didn't notice.

My idea has no problem dealing with multiple hard acceleration runs.

I'm not looking for anyone's approval, btw. I just need a few $B that probably fell on the ground during the recent $T spending frenzy so I can do some research.

I noticed, it just wasn't a feasible system.

Your system was effectively two systems. Packaging two engines, two generators, and two storage systems is a pretty expensive solution. It's cheaper to build one larger engine, one large generator, and one large energy storage system.

 

[RU482]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
What if the Volt did away with its batteries and just an array of capacitors with enough juice to take a full highway speed brake and through charging/discharging of those and the engine either on at 100% or off, we get a similar effect, so even at highway speed say you need 50 horsepower and the engine is making 150, it will turn on for 20 seconds to charge the capacitors and then off for 40 as they quickly drain out, then on again. I imagine it was considered or ignored outright (maybe capacitors are too heavy or useless for discharges as long as 60 seconds).

The only reason the batteries are really in the volt is so that a) it can be plugged in for short trips and b) allows the engine to be off or running at full power.

the last time I worked int he auto industry ( a few years ago) the reliability and safety of UltraCapacitors made sony LiIon laptop batteries seem awesome

 

[LTC8K6]

Your system was effectively two systems. Packaging two engines, two generators, and two storage systems is a pretty expensive solution.

I never said anything about 2 engines. Or 2 generators.

Stop redesigning my vehicle.

Go design your own. This is my imaginary grant money.

 

[heymrdj]

Originally posted by: RU482

Originally posted by: Skoorb
What if the Volt did away with its batteries and just an array of capacitors with enough juice to take a full highway speed brake and through charging/discharging of those and the engine either on at 100% or off, we get a similar effect, so even at highway speed say you need 50 horsepower and the engine is making 150, it will turn on for 20 seconds to charge the capacitors and then off for 40 as they quickly drain out, then on again. I imagine it was considered or ignored outright (maybe capacitors are too heavy or useless for discharges as long as 60 seconds).

The only reason the batteries are really in the volt is so that a) it can be plugged in for short trips and b) allows the engine to be off or running at full power.

the last time I worked int he auto industry ( a few years ago) the reliability and safety of UltraCapacitors made sony LiIon laptop batteries seem awesome

I needed a good chuckle.