CNN Article on 'stealing' wireless bandwidth...

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Mday

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
18,647
1
81
It's not stealing in the traditional sense unless the owner of the network actually experienced loss of throughput. It can also be considered a theft of utilities, but in the US, most forms of internet access are based on a fixed monthly fee that does not depend on usage. In the traditional theft of utilities (electricity and water), the more you use the more you pay.

It is trespassing though.
 

Rogue

Banned
Jan 28, 2000
5,774
0
0
Originally posted by: Stefan
Originally posted by: Rogue
Originally posted by: kranky
Rogue brings up a lot of interesting points, all of which are smoke and mirrors (not a slam at you, Rogue). I don't want a bunch of complicated laws designed to plug tiny loopholes that people want to exploit. The analogies to physical items break down and therefore don't make sense.

Did I invite someone to use my bandwidth, yes or no? That's all there is to it. I paid for the bandwidth. If someone is using it uninvited they are wrong. It's absolutely black and white and I don't see any grey area at all.

All the "grey areas" are attempts to justify using something that wasn't paid for, based on a flawed assumption that if I *can* do something then it must be OK to do it. That's exactly how you end up with a million laws. No one wants to start from the premise that if you weren't invited to use my bandwidth, then it's wrong to do it.

Fact is, everything I discussed is based on current law as applied to something currently NOT covered by virtually any law. My intent was to show that there are a number of laws which could quickly be applied to this problem, however, they may not fit properly. Just about everything I said is valid. The light from a television which exits a window and is "received" by my eyes would be very similar to a wireless broadcast. The only difference is my eyes don't send anything back to the television inside the house. I think you dismiss my questions too easily as "smoke and mirrors."

There is often times a difference between right/wrong and the law. Using something of someone elses without their permission is wrong. Just because there are no explicitly defined laws saying it is wrong, doesn't make it right, acceptable or justifiable.

Wrong and illegal are two different things. To date, the discussion has been that this is "stealing" which implies some type of illegality. I won't say it's not "wrong" but wrong is not "illegal" as has been stated and implied in this thread. Of course stealing is wrong and not all stealing is illegal (as in abandoned property).
 

episodic

Lifer
Feb 7, 2004
11,088
2
81
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: episodic
There are lots of people that intentionally leave their connection unsecured so others CAN use it. . . So if you use an unsecured connection, how do you know that the original person did not have the intent for it to be available for use? I'm sorry, but the person with the access point should secure it if it is not public.
Um, ask?

If you are in a building with 100 other familes, whom should you ask?
 

cavemanmoron

Lifer
Mar 13, 2001
13,664
28
91
I use cat5

steal that with your wireless crap.

LMAO wireless is for fools,that want to have their crap hacked.
 

BigToque

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,700
0
76
Originally posted by: cavemanmoron
I use cat5

steal that with your wireless crap.

LMAO wireless is for fools,that want to have their crap hacked.

Or for those who want to post from the can on a laptop without dragging a cord around :)
 

SportSC4

Golden Member
Aug 29, 2002
1,152
0
0
you know... this would all be solved if companies included some type of encryption on by default on new installs.

person buys the router, plugs it into their broadband, inputs their info, and a message box (it's all html) ask them if they would like to enable some type of wifi security.

why do we need more and more laws on something so easily avoidable? the companies should have done this by default in the first place for those less tech-savvy.
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Originally posted by: SportSC4
you know... this would all be solved if companies included some type of encryption on by default on new installs.

person buys the router, plugs it into their broadband, inputs their info, and a message box (it's all html) ask them if they would like to enable some type of wifi security.

why do we need more and more laws on something so easily avoidable? the companies should have done this by default in the first place for those less tech-savvy.

You know, it would be nice if companies made toilet paper that wiped your ass for you too. That would be great.
 

Muadib

Lifer
May 30, 2000
18,124
912
126
Originally posted by: Spike
Originally posted by: Mwilding
It is stealing. If I leave a hose running in my front yard and you trespass and take a drink, you are stealing my water. I might not care that you are doing it, but that doesn't change the fact of the matter...

But it's in your house. If you had that same hose running on the neighbors lawn then he should be able to take a drink as you are impossing on HIS space.

-spike
Exactly!!! One of my neighbor's wireless router killed mine. By Mwilding logic I should be able to sue him for property damage.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
I leave my wireless network unsecure, but only because it doesn't even reach all the way across my house, so I seriously doubt it'd reach into the street where a passing car could pick it up, or into my neighbor's houses which are.....probably so far away from my home that they are outside the typical maximum range of a wireless connection.
 

knyghtbyte

Senior member
Oct 20, 2004
918
1
0
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: knyghtbyte
ok, firstly to get this out of the way, i wouldnt leech as im always happy to pay my way......

however, if you dont secure your wireless network to let your friends use their laptops/PDAs on it when they come over, then the guy next door should be able to as well......my reason for saying this? simple.....

Your ISP leases you your broadband line......lets say that again, Your ISP leases YOU your broadband line, or in the event of a house with multiple occupants, they lease that household the line......that doesnt however include your friends coming over and using up bandwidth as well.....i think that would be covered by the fair use part of the policy, so if you allow a small lan to happen (ie 8 mates come over for a night of CS:S, but it ends up going from just an internal lan game to a wan game) then i would say you are breaching their fair use policy......which means you should be paying for a business account, then you can treat your home like a hotspot in a hotel or airport etc.

If you are willing to break the fair use policy in this way, why shouldnt the guy next door jump on board?......

However, if you secure your network, but the guy next door cracks it and leeches, then get the ah heck sent to prison, he hacked you, and that is not good things.
It's leased to use within your home and on your property. Not your neighbors.


It's leased for you and the officially recognised occupants of the property to use within that property.......

its not leased for you to let people use it like a hotspot...eg friends that pop over....

that would find itself under the description of a business line with indvidual agreement as to acceptable policy of use, usually defined by a price per Gb of data. So if you leave it unsecured so your friends can use it, you may find they would have a right to take you to court for loss of earnings. (im not saying they would, but legally they would have a right too)Thats why the fair use policy isnt actually completely defined in any terms of conditions, its a very stretchable clause.


if ya wanna get legal about it :)


 

AFB

Lifer
Jan 10, 2004
10,718
3
0
Originally posted by: Stefan
Originally posted by: Spike
Originally posted by: Mwilding
It is stealing. If I leave a hose running in my front yard and you trespass and take a drink, you are stealing my water. I might not care that you are doing it, but that doesn't change the fact of the matter...

But it's in your house. If you had that same hose running on the neighbors lawn then he should be able to take a drink as you are impossing on HIS space.

-spike

These analogies are stupid. Wi-Fi is not a god damn hose or anything else you can try to compare it to.

No matter what you say, using someone elses service without their permission is wrong. Nobody cares if you think you're entitled to it because it came through your walls. If you want a connection, pay the service provider and they will gladly let you use their service.

Street light?
 

knyghtbyte

Senior member
Oct 20, 2004
918
1
0
Originally posted by: Anubis
Originally posted by: knyghtbyte
Originally posted by: geecee
Originally posted by: HumblePie
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
What if some n00b doesn't know jack about wireless network and his computer automatically picks up his neighbor's connection? Would you say he's stealing too? Windows automatically pick them up and a lot of people don't even know.


the ISP and router companies tho do need to make things easier to setup, or at least provide a more simply laid out and thorough list of actions to secure the network and make it plainly clear what can happen if you dont

easier??????? it takes less the 30 seconds to figure this out

go to router - go to advanded then wireless then enable WEP key

its like 5 clicks , IT COULDENT BE ANY FVCKING EASIER

now pretend your someone who just got their first PC from Dell, had a free wireless router chucked in, Dell arranged for the broadband connection to be actived on your behalf........how the fvck do you know to go to router, go to advanced, then wireless, then enable WEP key?.......it may be 5 clicks, but how does someone new to computers know WHAT THE FVCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT????......whereeas if as someone else says in this thread, a nice box comes up when your connecting asking would you like this network to be totally secure and you can just click yes, that would mean these arguements over stealing bandwidth are unnecessary......

oh, i do know how to configure my router in case you are thinking i dont know personally, i got a wireless on an offer, but i use hardwired simply to make sure i get no dropout....i did however disable the wireless part to make sure no one else did sneak in either to share my bandwidth or check out my HDD....

mind u, i might reenable it if i can find someone stocking the Sandisk 256Mb SD WiFi card for my imate Jam, save me using GPRS...or slowing down my PC while gaming with the USB connection...heh.....

 

BadNewsBears

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2000
3,426
0
0
Originally posted by: Mwilding
It is stealing. If I leave a hose running in my front yard and you trespass and take a drink, you are stealing my water. I might not care that you are doing it, but that doesn't change the fact of the matter...

But your hose and water dont drift into my house.
 

StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
8,443
124
106
Originally posted by: cavemanmoron
I use cat5

steal that with your wireless crap.

LMAO wireless is for fools,that want to have their crap hacked.


Yes, I am a fool because I use Wifi. Even if I secured my AP with encryption, MAC filtering and disabled SSID broadcast. Please LMAO at me.
 

ManyBeers

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2004
2,519
1
81
Originally posted by: HumblePie
Originally posted by: rudder
Originally posted by: Mwilding
It is stealing. If I leave a hose running in my front yard and you trespass and take a drink, you are stealing my water. I might not care that you are doing it, but that doesn't change the fact of the matter...

but if you spray that water into my yard, is it still stealing?


Sprayed water is no longer ATTACHED to the original home or owner. As such, no it is not stealing. A wi-fi connection is still attached to the original router and owner. To prove that, the owner just has to shut it off and you no longer can get access. If I spray water with my hose into your yard, that water isn't attached because if I shut off my hose the water remains in your yard. By virtue, that is now your water. HuH

When he turns his router off any information my computer has buffered will still be on my computer. Same as the water.No?
 

ManyBeers

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2004
2,519
1
81
Originally posted by: HumblePie
Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Another member and I have pointed out that a user might pick up on some unsecured network accidentially without knowing. It is the wireless network's owner's responsibility to secure the network, period.


No, it is the person picking it up responsibility. Sorry, IGNORANCE OF THE LAW DOES NOT PROTECT YOU FROM IT! That is the first thing you learn in law class. Just because I accidentally bump into your car and cause a huge dent with my shopping basket doesn't make me no longer liable because it was an accident. Or just because I accidently step over a border line into someone else's property without knowing doesn't mean I'm not trespassing. It's not up to the owner of the land to put frikking barb wire fence over the entirety of the land with signs that state no trespassing.

Let's take this case for example, as it's happened before in the past. Texas still has a few old laws from frontier times that are still enforceable today. One of them is you can LEGALLY SHOOT TRESPASSERS AFTER DARK without stopping to ask first.

So, my uncle owns 50 acres out in hondo, and most of it is fenced in but not all of it. If you were out hiking one night and stepped onto his land and he pulled out his shotgun and killed you... well you are now legally dead for illegally trespassing. Your ignorance meant nothing.

One question for you Humble Pie: why is it legal for your wireless signal to be in the airspace of my living room. And don't answer this by telling me it's The Law. I want to know why it is morally justifiable if it is. In other words why is it morally right for some of your property(wireless signal) to be on my property(airspace of my living room) if I don't want it there?
 

StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
8,443
124
106
Don't blame anyone who connects to your AP and leech when you cannot even give a slightest damn about wifi security settings. The End.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Stealing? I dunno if I'd go that far. Wrong? Of course. You shouldn't be connecting to someone elses network without permission. That's just common sense.

And to those who say it's easy to secure - it all depends. Most of us posting here know how to do it so it's easy for us. I'm sure a CPA would tell me that doing my taxes is easy while I spend hours doing them. It's all relative.
 

ryan256

Platinum Member
Jul 22, 2005
2,514
0
71
Originally posted by: Rogue
No one yet in this entire thread has addressed the true complexities involved here and how current laws must be changed or updated for this purpose.

First off, who owns the wireless signal coming into my house? 2.4GHz is public spectrum. Does the person broadcasting that signal bear responsibility for where it goes and who accesses it? Or does the person receiving it now own it as "found property"? That has not been clearly defined with regards to Wi-Fi.

Second, in order to actually connect to that network, I must send a signal back to the broadcast device. I would say that my neighbor now owns my signal as well, so I am putting myself at risk for them to use my signal aren't I? Could the argument not be made that now my neighbor is stealing my signal, despite the fact that it's intended to reach HIS receiver? Signal broadcast is not as simple as a car analogy or an apple tree as everyone has made it to this point.

Third, there is such a thing as "found property" laws. If a kid leaves a bike laying in the middle of the street and another kid picks it up and rides away with it, would the law charge the kid with theft? 99% of the time, no. It's not his bike, he probably knew it, however, because it was essentially "abandoned" in a public area, it technically is no longer the property of the owner. This is how the police find evidence on suspects in trash cans, etc. Is my neighbor abandoning his signal he's sending to everyone in the neighborhood? Could his signal allowing my access be considered "found property" as well? The car analogy fails because there are systems in place to uniquely identify such property by VIN, license plate, owner registration, etc.

Having said that, do you wish to see the government require you to register your wireless access point and subsequently pay taxes on it to facilitate the process of maintaining all that data like we have with vehicle registration? How about taxes on your wireless devices? What about government mandate that you MUST uniquely identify your WAP with government provided identifying information to allow for easy identification by passers by that the signal belongs to you and you only? When any of you can start answering these questions, you're well on your way to drafting the start of any legislation which should govern wireless network access. So far, no one has even come close to approaching the answers to these questions.

The best analogy I can come up with and I'm sure it has flaws, would be my neighbor placing his televsion set in a publicly viewable window. If I sit on my property and watch his TV attached to his cable, am I stealing his cable? I can photograph that TV from public property, so if I can see it, it's legal, right? So here's another question that needs to be answered. If I connect to that same cable that is "displaying" internet access and I am on public property, is it stealing? I can watch his television signal from public property through his window and that's not stealing. I can photograph him/her naked from under the same circumstances and that's not illegal, right?

The only sticking point here is that in order to use that internet access, I have to send my signal back onto his property. To those who said there is no gray area, you've not thought of all the possbilities and current laws yet.

WOW! I've got to say so far this is the most comprehensive and well thought out post in this entire thread. I agree that new laws need to be changed since our current ones cannot properly govern this subject. Legislation has always been 3 or 4 years behind technology anyways.
 

Lumathix

Golden Member
Mar 16, 2004
1,686
0
46
Originally posted by: cavemanmoron
I use cat5

steal that with your wireless crap.

LMAO wireless is for fools,that want to have their crap hacked.

your user name fits this post sooooo well.