Cloudy Outlook For Solar Panels: Costs Substantially Eclipse Benefits, Study Shows

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BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Its also worth noting concerning solar panels that they are propped up in many parts of the country with massive government subsidies, and even with those are still only economical in areas with the highest priced electricty. So yes if you are in California and can get the massive subsidies and your goverment has a defacto ban on coal and a law against nuclear causing your electricty prices to be twice the national average then its can get to be a winner. However I find it ironic that usually enviromentalists and liberals are the ones decrying large government subsidies to industry but here they are all for the government heavily subsidising an industry which cannot stand on its own. Also like was mentioned before we are talking about California where coal and nuclear are banned, a LNG terminal is banned, and power comopanies are viewed as the enemy. Basically California has the most poorly thought out and regressive restrictions on the electrical industry hence the incredibly high electricty prices (I mean being against coal is one thing and acceptable, but their views on nuclear and LNG along with electrical industry regulation are just sad). Just to rag on California some more, I remember before this whole Enron thing most people probably didn't know much about their regulations or about Enron as a compnay, but my dad who works in the electric utility business was telling me months before Enron ever came in and raped California about how California's new laws were going to completely fuck them over and the people where he worked has already figured out tons of ways the system could be games to make huge proffits (which Enron eventually did). I mean their laws on the electircal industry are all political garbage some of them are misguided attempts at enviromentalism others are just bordering on socialist.
 

AlienCraft

Lifer
Nov 23, 2002
10,539
0
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
Originally posted by: BoomerD
[

Maybe YMMV is the case...

Several people in the local reef aquarium club looked into solar a couple of years ago, and (some being engineers) broke it down very accurately. The final conclusion was that it just didn't pay over the long haul...
Glad to hear it has for your friend Fred.
I would be interested in seeing how they broke down requirements. This is what lead me to envision the dual mode system I was talking about.
I went back and re-read some of the threads. Apparently, with the newer rebates Ah-Nold signed into law, the break-even point is now a matter of a few years (depending, of course, on your usage) and that with the high electrical demand of many saltwater reef tanks, many of them are looking at it again, with the thought that it MIGHT be a worthwhile investment. Of course, these folks are all in the highest-tier of PG&E's usage schedules...many have PG&E electric bills approaching $1000/month...so spending $20K or more isn't a bad investment for them. More normal users however wouldn't see nearly as much return for their investment except over a much longer period of time.
Indeed! If I were in a high tier rate, I would be doing everything I could to get out of it/ lessen it's effect on my wallet.
As for "normal users" I think the advantage is for those of us who like our Air Conditioning here in The Big Valley. If by using PV generated power, we can keep SMUD and PG&E and whatever company wants to connect my major appliances to relays so they can disconnect them, out of my panel board, i'll be a happy camper.
 

AlienCraft

Lifer
Nov 23, 2002
10,539
0
0
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Its also worth noting concerning solar panels that they are propped up in many parts of the country with massive government subsidies, and even with those are still only economical in areas with the highest priced electricty. So yes if you are in California and can get the massive subsidies and your goverment has a defacto ban on coal and a law against nuclear causing your electricty prices to be twice the national average then its can get to be a winner. However I find it ironic that usually enviromentalists and liberals are the ones decrying large government subsidies to industry but here they are all for the government heavily subsidising an industry which cannot stand on its own.
If I may point out there is a distinction between a PROFITABLE (record breaking,reportedly) Heavily Capitalized Publicly traded Corporation with Offices in other States in addition to other countries where it has it's headquarters to escape paying any taxes to the country that it is bleeding dry and a Start Up PRIVATELY FUNDED, company consisting of a principal or two and some addditional staff or management consultation from mentors, advancing Cutting Edge Experimental Technology in small scale / proof of concept applications that live and raise families in the same place they are advancing their cause.
Anyone who thinks those two companies are the same has some 'splaining to do.
Also like was mentioned before we are talking about California where coal and nuclear are banned, a LNG terminal is banned, and power comopanies are viewed as the enemy. Basically California has the most poorly thought out and regressive restrictions on the electrical industry hence the incredibly high electricty prices (I mean being against coal is one thing and acceptable, but their views on nuclear and LNG along with electrical industry regulation are just sad). Just to rag on California some more, I remember before this whole Enron thing most people probably didn't know much about their regulations or about Enron as a compnay, but my dad who works in the electric utility business was telling me months before Enron ever came in and raped California about how California's new laws were going to completely fuck them over and the people where he worked has already figured out tons of ways the system could be games to make huge proffits (which Enron eventually did). I mean their laws on the electircal industry are all political garbage some of them are misguided attempts at enviromentalism others are just bordering on socialist.
Really!?
So the thief is absolved of responsibility if he gets over on the mark?
Which modern law supports that premise?


QUESTION: When do Corporatist's accept responsibility for their actions?
ANSWER: NEVER, that's why they're a Corporation. So the cowards and thieves can run from the effects of their decisions with impunity.

The ENRON debacle was not the fault of the People of The State of California.

It was the FAULT of the greedy SOB's that put it in play. The Energy Company CEO"s and Lobbyists that were in Cheney's little meeting.
The RESPONSIBILITY for it's being lays at our feet and those that are elected to protect our interests.
This is why there will be conflicting "science" and"economic"reports that pooh pooh anything that challenges the dominant paradigm.
There is too much money to "lose".

 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
Originally posted by: BoomerD
[

Maybe YMMV is the case...

Several people in the local reef aquarium club looked into solar a couple of years ago, and (some being engineers) broke it down very accurately. The final conclusion was that it just didn't pay over the long haul...
Glad to hear it has for your friend Fred.
I would be interested in seeing how they broke down requirements. This is what lead me to envision the dual mode system I was talking about.
I went back and re-read some of the threads. Apparently, with the newer rebates Ah-Nold signed into law, the break-even point is now a matter of a few years (depending, of course, on your usage) and that with the high electrical demand of many saltwater reef tanks, many of them are looking at it again, with the thought that it MIGHT be a worthwhile investment. Of course, these folks are all in the highest-tier of PG&E's usage schedules...many have PG&E electric bills approaching $1000/month...so spending $20K or more isn't a bad investment for them. More normal users however wouldn't see nearly as much return for their investment except over a much longer period of time.
Indeed! If I were in a high tier rate, I would be doing everything I could to get out of it/ lessen it's effect on my wallet.
As for "normal users" I think the advantage is for those of us who like our Air Conditioning here in The Big Valley. If by using PV generated power, we can keep SMUD and PG&E and whatever company wants to connect my major appliances to relays so they can disconnect them, out of my panel board, i'll be a happy camper.
if you have enough panels to run air con you have massive amount of solar, much more than the average solar install. it would definitely be uneconomical.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
The ENRON debacle was not the fault of the People of The State of California.
Thats like saying that if I leave my car out in the middle of parking lot with the keys in the ignition and a big sign saying "free car" thats its not my fault if it gets stolen. I mean first off what Enron did to screw California wasn't technically illegal or anything it was just finding loopholes in idiotic laws. Sure its immoral and questionably legal (and other practices of theirs were clearly illegal), but at some point you have got to take responsibility for whats going to happen. As for power companies making record proffits; in most of this country the power companies are heavily regualted and not ALLOWED to take proffits over a certain number and must have their expenses approved by power commisions or other groups. I'm not sure what the people out in California are doing, but the 100% straight up monopolies (here in Tennesee a government owned monopoly oes noes!!) here in teh SouthEast have the lowest prices in the country (barring places like say Washinton State with all its Hydro), so again I would have to expect you have your own state to blame.
 

AlienCraft

Lifer
Nov 23, 2002
10,539
0
0
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
The ENRON debacle was not the fault of the People of The State of California.
Thats like saying that if I leave my car out in the middle of parking lot with the keys in the ignition and a big sign saying "free car" thats its not my fault if it gets stolen. I mean first off what Enron did to screw California wasn't technically illegal or anything it was just finding loopholes in idiotic laws. Sure its immoral and questionably legal (and other practices of theirs were clearly illegal), but at some point you have got to take responsibility for whats going to happen. As for power companies making record proffits; in most of this country the power companies are heavily regualted and not ALLOWED to take proffits over a certain number and must have their expenses approved by power commisions or other groups. I'm not sure what the people out in California are doing, but the 100% straight up monopolies (here in Tennesee a government owned monopoly oes noes!!) here in teh SouthEast have the lowest prices in the country (barring places like say Washinton State with all its Hydro), so again I would have to expect you have your own state to blame.
No, it's not like that at all. Way to try to oversimplify something that took weeks to present in court.
Remember, they went to Court, were found GUILTY????:roll:
In fact it took some very smart people, along with one with a conscience to figure out what they had done after the whistle was blown on them.
ENRON's CFO is also in jail for his transgressions. You know, picking the pockets of all those employees whose trust in their PONZI scheme was rewarded by a complete loss of retirement benefits for everyone.
WElll , everyone except the real criminals who are in jail or dead.
Their fortunes remain intact. That's justice for you. If you have enough money, even if you cause someone to lose all of theirs, you get to keep yours and you don't have to give them theirs back!

yay enough money to insulate me from the harsh realities I may inflict on others.

As for your TVA, no corruption there, oh no. They're all angels.
Comparing a Multi-state, federally funded and involved multi-aspect Agency with A Privately Held Company with bogus /paper assets involved in a shell game acting as it's own middle man to inflate costs to justify gouging customers, taking Generators offline in order to manipulate Electrical Supply during periods of extraordinary high demand, oh and getting caught on Tape boasting about it, yeah, that's the people of California's fault ??

Hows that again? :shocked:
Quite the case of Cali-Phobia you've got there. :thumbsup:
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
60,268
8,413
136
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
The ENRON debacle was not the fault of the People of The State of California.
Thats like saying that if I leave my car out in the middle of parking lot with the keys in the ignition and a big sign saying "free car" thats its not my fault if it gets stolen. I mean first off what Enron did to screw California wasn't technically illegal or anything it was just finding loopholes in idiotic laws. Sure its immoral and questionably legal (and other practices of theirs were clearly illegal), but at some point you have got to take responsibility for whats going to happen. As for power companies making record proffits; in most of this country the power companies are heavily regualted and not ALLOWED to take proffits over a certain number and must have their expenses approved by power commisions or other groups. I'm not sure what the people out in California are doing, but the 100% straight up monopolies (here in Tennesee a government owned monopoly oes noes!!) here in teh SouthEast have the lowest prices in the country (barring places like say Washinton State with all its Hydro), so again I would have to expect you have your own state to blame.


The Kahleeforneeya cluster-fuck of 2001 was created by Pete Wilson, who was Governor before Gray Davis. He and his friends at San Diego Gas & Electric, PG&E, and some of the other utilities convinced the voting public that deregulating electricity would be GOOD for Kahleeforneeya, that we would be able to buy electricity from whatever sources we wanted, (green power, nuclear power, etc.) and only pay a small "wheeling" charge to have that power delivered through the existing grid. Of course, they expected to be able to buy power from outside the state as well and charge us higher rates than they paid for it.
Once it actually became law however, people were bailing on the established utility companies enmasse, and they started losing money, then, the raping began...all the energy companies conspired to raise rates; power plants were taken out of service for "maintenance," artifical shortages were created, all to increase the prices.
Gray Davis TRIED to forestall the crisis by buying blocks of power at a set rate, but of course, the rates were still outrageously high. Enron, Duke Energy, and others made "windfall profits" by price fixing and screwing the Kahleeforneeya public...on energy made here in Kahleeforneeya.

You can thank the Republicans for this nasty debacle...THEY are the ones who made it all possible.
This is P&N.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
The heads of ENRON are NOT in jail because of what they did to California, they are in jail because of their accounting schemes, ya know like misrepresenting earnings and attempting to restate losses as capital investments and such all of which was done to boost stock prices and such.
 
May 31, 2001
15,326
1
0
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
Originally posted by: BoomerD
[

Maybe YMMV is the case...

Several people in the local reef aquarium club looked into solar a couple of years ago, and (some being engineers) broke it down very accurately. The final conclusion was that it just didn't pay over the long haul...
Glad to hear it has for your friend Fred.
I would be interested in seeing how they broke down requirements. This is what lead me to envision the dual mode system I was talking about.
I went back and re-read some of the threads. Apparently, with the newer rebates Ah-Nold signed into law, the break-even point is now a matter of a few years (depending, of course, on your usage) and that with the high electrical demand of many saltwater reef tanks, many of them are looking at it again, with the thought that it MIGHT be a worthwhile investment. Of course, these folks are all in the highest-tier of PG&E's usage schedules...many have PG&E electric bills approaching $1000/month...so spending $20K or more isn't a bad investment for them. More normal users however wouldn't see nearly as much return for their investment except over a much longer period of time.
Indeed! If I were in a high tier rate, I would be doing everything I could to get out of it/ lessen it's effect on my wallet.
As for "normal users" I think the advantage is for those of us who like our Air Conditioning here in The Big Valley. If by using PV generated power, we can keep SMUD and PG&E and whatever company wants to connect my major appliances to relays so they can disconnect them, out of my panel board, i'll be a happy camper.
if you have enough panels to run air con you have massive amount of solar, much more than the average solar install. it would definitely be uneconomical.
You can reduce the amount of air conditioning you need by strategic placement of your panels on the roof.
 

MmmSkyscraper

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
9,475
0
76
Originally posted by: BoomerD
I think that with the current technology, prices, and the length of time it takes to recoup your investment, adding solar panels is kind of like peeing your pants while wearing a dark suit...it gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices.
:laugh::beer:
 
May 31, 2001
15,326
1
0
Oh, and just to clarify something. In one of my earlier posts, I mentioned spray-on "paint" that could act as a solar cell, hypothesizing that it would be readily available at Home Depot in twenty years. That technology actually exists now, it is just that it may take that long before it is commonplace, well-known, and readily available to John and Jane Doe at their local retailer. I hope it happens much sooner.

Another upgrade to solar panels that exists now, and will be in future iterations: Self-cleaning panels. :thumbsup:
 

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