clock speed

dejitaru

Banned
Sep 29, 2002
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So there's a "thing" powered by a Processor X-2600 @ 1000MHz. There is also an 867MHz version of this chip. You can overclock the 1GHz version to 1133MHz, but the 867MHz can only be clocked to 933MHz.

What's so special about the 1GHz version that it can run at such speeds; why isn't it released as Processor X-2600a or Processor X-2700 or Processor Y?
 

bizmark

Banned
Feb 4, 2002
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for any given processor, there is *no* pre-planned difference between the various clock speed versions of the chip. Chips are made on big silicon wafers using a process called lithography. (Lithography works on the same basic principle as your normal Xerox copy machine.) There are very many chips on each wafer., and there are many things that can go wrong in the lithography process. Each processor contains millions and millions of transistors -- 55 million for the P4 for example. These are microscopic, and there is no way to get *every* transistor created exactly the way the designers want, simply due to the complexity of the task.

So say we look at a group of 9 P4 chips that have just been produced, taken from the center of a wafer. 1 of them might have no flaws, and it will get rated and sold at the highest speed. 3 of them might have some flaws that keep them from running at the highest speed -- they will be sold at lower clock speed ratings. And 3 others have flaws in the cache.... Intel would simply disable half of the cache (the part with the flaws obviously), and sell those chips as Celerons. And the other 2 chips had so many flaws that they could not run. So the 3.06GHz P4 that Intel sells for $500 or whatever it is, was probably sitting on a wafer right next to two failed processors, a 2.4, a 2.6, a 2.0, and 3 Celerons. There is no purposeful distinction between these chips -- they are all designed to be exactly the same, but due to flaws inherent to the process, some of them will not come out as designed.

This is what manufacturers refer to as yield. Yield is pretty high for Intel and AMD but specialty chips like very high-end graphics chips might have yields lower than 50%. So half of the chips on each wafer are thrown away because they don't work. Manufacturers can increase yield by coming out with new masks and lenses for the lithographic process, better environmental controls (reducing the size of random particles floating around in the fab), etc.

The process in which the newly made chips are tested and rated for a certain clock speed is known as binning. A manufacturer may sell a chip that passed the test at a high clock speed, at a lower clock speed. E.g., Intel had very good yield when they first started with the Northwood P4 core, and they obviously couldn't sell *all* of their produced chips at the highest speed rating -- there simply isn't that much demand for the high end of the market. So Intel sold a lot of very good chips at lower ratings than they should have been given. Hence the obsession with 1.6GHz chips overclocking to 2.4GHz.

So those 1.6's cost Intel just as much to produce as the 2.4's. So why didn't they sell them as 2.4's, or even as 2.0's? Because, as I said above, there's just not as much demand for a $500 part as there is for a $150 part. Intel would rather get $150 for a chip than $0 for one that nobody's willing to buy. So there are complicated pricing schemes and whatnot. But, to answer your question -- inherently, there is no difference between a higher and a lower clocked version of the same chip. (Clarification: there are always new revisions and new layouts -- a Rev A chip *is* inherently different from a Rev B chip, but within a revision there is no difference between the higher and lower clocked versions.)

edit: also, manufacturers are often conservative in their binning so there's usually some headroom for overclocking.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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Right...
And sine those chips cost virtually nothing to make.
( a few ounces of silicon, copper, etc...)
Intel can sell a chip it created for $10.50 for $150->$500.

The real expensive part about making chips, isnt the chip materials or the labor... Its setting up the Fabrication plant (appx $1 Billion) every time a new (type of) chip comes out. New molds for cpu cores, different cache... etc.
 

bizmark

Banned
Feb 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: dkozloski
bizmark, A copy machine uses Xerography. Offset printing uses lithography.

:confused:

isn't it still the same basic principle? I thought I was being sufficiently vague :D

Besides, that was a minor point.....
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
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Originally posted by: sao123
Right...
And sine those chips cost virtually nothing to make.
( a few ounces of silicon, copper, etc...)
Intel can sell a chip it created for $10.50 for $150->$500.

The real expensive part about making chips, isnt the chip materials or the labor... Its setting up the Fabrication plant (appx $1 Billion) every time a new (type of) chip comes out. New molds for cpu cores, different cache... etc.

I read somewhere (pop sci?) that at the time, a P2 cost $72 to make. Admittedly that is much more expensive b/c it is a slot cpu, but still.... it is more than $10.
 

dkozloski

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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bizmark, In xerography a silicon drum is charged with a high voltage and selectively discharged with a laser light to create a pattern that will collect a mixture of carbon black and resin(toner) on it's surface. The drum is discharged at the same time a high voltage attracts the toner to the paper. The toner and paper go betweeen some heated rollers to fuse them together. In lithigraphy, a photographic negative or mask is used to selectively exposed a photosensitive surface with a desired pattern. In printing the exposed surface becomes the printing plate. In chipmaking the exposed surface is etched away to create the various elements of the circuit. You can see there is very little similarity.
 

everman

Lifer
Nov 5, 2002
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So what does it really cost to make, say a P4 when you take into account all costs associated with producing it? ie labor, the fab, ect.? I would think more than $10 right?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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not to mention you have to take into account all of the research that goes into createing the chip as well. furthermore, all of that gets divided by the number of chips sold, so to come up with the true price is not realy something that any of us can do.
 

bizmark

Banned
Feb 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: dkozloski
bizmark, In xerography a silicon drum is charged with a high voltage and selectively discharged with a laser light to create a pattern that will collect a mixture of carbon black and resin(toner) on it's surface. The drum is discharged at the same time a high voltage attracts the toner to the paper. The toner and paper go betweeen some heated rollers to fuse them together. In lithigraphy, a photographic negative or mask is used to selectively exposed a photosensitive surface with a desired pattern. In printing the exposed surface becomes the printing plate. In chipmaking the exposed surface is etched away to create the various elements of the circuit. You can see there is very little similarity.

So (Xerography / Lithography) both involve selectively (charging / exposing) a pattern on (a piece of paper / a piece of silicon) and then (coating the charged area with toner / etching the exposed area). I think that the basic principles are the same, just applied to very different media. In particular, both processes involve using light to create a pattern on a flat surface, and then doing something to the surface according to the pattern.
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
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I think the average price of an Intel chip is in the range of $18 - $22, AMD is a bit higher at about $24. I can't remember the exact costs but I know it is near this range. With new fabs and processes Intel is looking to drop costs to near $12 - $14 per chip - but this is the result of almost $10 billion in investments. The question is, will they get that money back over the somewhat limited lifetime of a fab.
 

SharkyTM

Platinum Member
Sep 26, 2002
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originally, lithorgaphy was covering some selective sections of rock with wax, then pouring acid on the rock... the acid would eat the rock away, leaving the wax covered rock behind. Then, the rock was covered in ink, squeegeed off to leave ink in only the etched areas, then paper was pressed down onto it... pretty cool sh@t.