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Clinton Says Saddam Never Accounted for Weapons; Bush's Uranium Mistake Understandable

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Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
If you attack a country for 4 days you better damn well be able to prove it too. Why can't you see that the magnitude of the action doesn't change the intent and justification.
Why? Because this is complete BS. Greater magnitude requires proportionally greater -- and accurate -- justification.


No one came forward because nobody questioned it - duh.
More BS, you're two for two. There is no evidence Clinton's intel was bogus. The rabid right attack dogs didn't give Clinton a pass on anything. Anything. If Clinton had misrepresented intel, they would have been all over it. And Gore didn't make multiple trips to the CIA to dictate their conclusions. According to all reports, Cheney and Rumsfeld's manipulation and intimidation were unprecedented.


And again for the 100th time - this isn't a question of deflecting blame or slamming Clinton.
Oops, still more BS. Strike three, you're out. For the 100th time, this is entirely about deflecting blame and slamming Clinton. You can't defend Bush, so you dodge and distort and distract, trying to make anything stick so you don't have to rationalize Bush's misdeeds. You can say otherwise a million times, but it still won't be true.


Clinton came out and said he didn't know how successful his 4 days worth of strikes were but what he did know was "When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for,". Why wasn't his strike questioned? and why can't it still be looked at if we are truely looking for the truth of supposed intel misques?
You keep saying his strike wasn't questioned. I call "BS" again. Prove it, show us articles or links that support this ridiculous claim. You guys are making this up to try to attack Bush's opponents and deflect blame.

Besides that, it's irrelevant. It has nothing to do with Bush's invasion today.
 
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: LunarRay
CAD,
What is the nexus between Bush's activity and Clinton's? The intel source? OK.. lets say the same person told Clinton and Bush (their people) the relevant intel... are you saying the intel remained the same for the five years between '98 and the invasion of '03.. if it has changed and don't you think it ought to have... then there is no nexus.. other than the utterer of the intel... Clinton operated under the intel in hand at that time and Bush operated under the intel in hand at his time.. The question needing being asked is is there a relationship between what Bush was told and what he said he was told... and what he acted on... don't ya think?

The difference is those that supported Clinton did not question his intel. Those same people that oppose Bush question the intel. That is the connection.

Are they questioning the same intel or the incremental portion and what that may indicate... surely we have increased our intel over the time involved... what folks interpret this incremental intel to mean seems to be the question... What did the Administration folks interpret it to mean versus what the intel folks said it meant.. under both administration ought to be the debate... no?

Again, as charrison quite simply put it, is that the people who are questioning Bush's intel didn't question Clinton's intel. That is the crux of the whole case. This isn't a issue of blaming Clinton or absolving Bush - heck, if we need to find out our intel failures, then by all means lets do so, but to only question Bush's intel is shortsighted since nobody seems to know if Clinton's intel was correct since they didn't seem to follow up on the damage - or atleast Bill claims he doesn't know.

CkG

The Congress is privy to the intel as is the Admin... after the fact, however... now is the time to evaluate the contract.. Bush promised there was an exigent circumstance ... (etc) now the people via their agents... the Congress seek to validate the actions they (the agents) were asked to take on faith ... Clinton is in NY somewhere and not involved to my knowledge...
If I choose not to ask a question of person A but, later choose to ask person B a question... although similar to what I may have asked person A... the answer from B is all I am interested in cuz person B was the one asked..


Actually a bipartison committie is privie to same intel at the same time as the president.

If this is the case then there should be no debate at all... How could there be.. If Congress... the committee ... saw what was the reason for the invasion.. and the exigent condition... then ... well... I find no grounds to take Bush to task on what they also saw prior to the invasion... something is fueling this smoke.. no? I think I've a notion that the intel was not available to Congress... nor was the CIA briefing Congress.... BEFORE the invasion... Congress was told to take it on faith.. as it always does... now it is the evaluation stage...

 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
If you attack a country for 4 days you better damn well be able to prove it too. Why can't you see that the magnitude of the action doesn't change the intent and justification.
Why? Because this is complete BS. Greater magnitude requires proportionally greater -- and accurate -- justification.


No one came forward because nobody questioned it - duh.
More BS, you're two for two. There is no evidence Clinton's intel was bogus. The rabid right attack dogs didn't give Clinton a pass on anything. Anything. If Clinton had misrepresented intel, they would have been all over it. And Gore didn't make multiple trips to the CIA to dictate their conclusions. According to all reports, Cheney and Rumsfeld's manipulation and intimidation were unprecedented.


And again for the 100th time - this isn't a question of deflecting blame or slamming Clinton.
Oops, still more BS. Strike three, you're out. For the 100th time, this is entirely about deflecting blame and slamming Clinton. You can't defend Bush, so you dodge and distort and distract, trying to make anything stick so you don't have to rationalize Bush's misdeeds. You can say otherwise a million times, but it still won't be true.


Clinton came out and said he didn't know how successful his 4 days worth of strikes were but what he did know was "When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for,". Why wasn't his strike questioned? and why can't it still be looked at if we are truely looking for the truth of supposed intel misques?
You keep saying his strike wasn't questioned. I call "BS" again. Prove it, show us articles or links that support this ridiculous claim. You guys are making this up to try to attack Bush's opponents and deflect blame.

Besides that, it's irrelevant. It has nothing to do with Bush's invasion today.

Wow - you completely ignored everything I have been saying. This isn't about partisanship, it is about the intel and it's use.
I don't understand why you want to make this a partisan issue, Bowfinger. I thought you wanted the truth. I guess your hatred of Bush really is your motivation.

CkG
 
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: LunarRay
CAD,
What is the nexus between Bush's activity and Clinton's? The intel source? OK.. lets say the same person told Clinton and Bush (their people) the relevant intel... are you saying the intel remained the same for the five years between '98 and the invasion of '03.. if it has changed and don't you think it ought to have... then there is no nexus.. other than the utterer of the intel... Clinton operated under the intel in hand at that time and Bush operated under the intel in hand at his time.. The question needing being asked is is there a relationship between what Bush was told and what he said he was told... and what he acted on... don't ya think?

The difference is those that supported Clinton did not question his intel. Those same people that oppose Bush question the intel. That is the connection.

Are they questioning the same intel or the incremental portion and what that may indicate... surely we have increased our intel over the time involved... what folks interpret this incremental intel to mean seems to be the question... What did the Administration folks interpret it to mean versus what the intel folks said it meant.. under both administration ought to be the debate... no?

Again, as charrison quite simply put it, is that the people who are questioning Bush's intel didn't question Clinton's intel. That is the crux of the whole case. This isn't a issue of blaming Clinton or absolving Bush - heck, if we need to find out our intel failures, then by all means lets do so, but to only question Bush's intel is shortsighted since nobody seems to know if Clinton's intel was correct since they didn't seem to follow up on the damage - or atleast Bill claims he doesn't know.

CkG

The Congress is privy to the intel as is the Admin... after the fact, however... now is the time to evaluate the contract.. Bush promised there was an exigent circumstance ... (etc) now the people via their agents... the Congress seek to validate the actions they (the agents) were asked to take on faith ... Clinton is in NY somewhere and not involved to my knowledge...
If I choose not to ask a question of person A but, later choose to ask person B a question... although similar to what I may have asked person A... the answer from B is all I am interested in cuz person B was the one asked..


Actually a bipartison committie is privie to same intel at the same time as the president.

If this is the case then there should be no debate at all... How could there be.. If Congress... the committee ... saw what was the reason for the invasion.. and the exigent condition... then ... well... I find no grounds to take Bush to task on what they also saw prior to the invasion... something is fueling this smoke.. no? I think I've a notion that the intel was not available to Congress... nor was the CIA briefing Congress.... BEFORE the invasion... Congress was told to take it on faith.. as it always does... now it is the evaluation stage...

It was available to the commitee and before the war.
 
Quote by Charrison,
It was available to the commitee and before the war.

So... lets see here... all the relevant intel that Bush used to go to war was in the hands of Congress (the intel committee) prior to the war.... All the exigent conditions, the WMD, the rest.. was all neatly packaged so the Congress could go to sleep and wake up later all aroar...
Why is the CIA now saying that what Bush said in State of the Union speach was not right... What did the Intel folks give to congress? Something smells here... could be smoke or could be rotting fish... How could Congress say "Bad Bush" now if they knew he was "Bad Bush" then... I've read all the same stuff everone else has.. and it all seems to point to a difference between the intel interpretation by the spooks and the reevaluation by the Administration as proffered by the Democrats and the Republican answer seems to be more non denial denials....
 
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Quote by Charrison,
It was available to the commitee and before the war.

So... lets see here... all the relevant intel that Bush used to go to war was in the hands of Congress (the intel committee) prior to the war.... All the exigent conditions, the WMD, the rest.. was all neatly packaged so the Congress could go to sleep and wake up later all aroar...
Why is the CIA now saying that what Bush said in State of the Union speach was not right... What did the Intel folks give to congress? Something smells here... could be smoke or could be rotting fish... How could Congress say "Bad Bush" now if they knew he was "Bad Bush" then... I've read all the same stuff everone else has.. and it all seems to point to a difference between the intel interpretation by the spooks and the reevaluation by the Administration as proffered by the Democrats and the Republican answer seems to be more non denial denials....

Well the committe does have access to it. If they did not ask the CIA questions then or did not properly read the material, they dont need to be on the committee. The CIA did not say the statement was not right, but they said it probably should have been left out. Those 16 words are still factually correct today. And those 16 words do reference intel that congress did not have access to. Those 16 words however did not reference the forged nigerian documents.

 
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Wow - you completely ignored everything I have been saying. This isn't about partisanship, it is about the intel and it's use.
I don't understand why you want to make this a partisan issue, Bowfinger. I thought you wanted the truth. I guess your hatred of Bush really is your motivation.
Now that's funny!
rolleye.gif


I want the truth about why we invaded another country, killing thousands of innocent people in the process. More importantly, I want accountability. I want a President who is honest and has the integrity to accept responsibility for the actions of his administration. I want a President who says "the buck stops here" instead of spinning story after story, hoping against hope that one of them sticks. And I want Bush apologists to stop playing games with people's lives and start supporting their positions instead of constantly blaming Clinton and evading the very serious issues facing this country today.

What do you want?
 
Here's another story on the subject, from CNN:
Clinton's defense of Bush surprises fellow Democrats
[ ... ]
Sen. Edward Kennedy, one of the leading Democratic voices in the Senate, said he didn't think Bush has taken responsibility for the mistaken claim. The Massachusetts liberal said his late brother President Kennedy had said he made a mistake with the failed 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba "because of false information."

"But this president hasn't taken the responsibility; he says George Tenet made the mistake," Kennedy said. "There's a big difference in terms of trying to move beyond on the accountability on this issue, and I think that's a very fundamental, important difference."
[ ... ]
JFK apparently had the integrity to acknowledge his mistake. But, to borrow a line from Lloyd Bentsen, Bush-lite is "no John Kennedy".
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Wow - you completely ignored everything I have been saying. This isn't about partisanship, it is about the intel and it's use.
I don't understand why you want to make this a partisan issue, Bowfinger. I thought you wanted the truth. I guess your hatred of Bush really is your motivation.
Now that's funny!
rolleye.gif


I want the truth about why we invaded another country, killing thousands of innocent people in the process. More importantly, I want accountability. I want a President who is honest and has the integrity to accept responsibility for the actions of his administration. I want a President who says "the buck stops here" instead of spinning story after story, hoping against hope that one of them sticks. And I want Bush apologists to stop playing games with people's lives and start supporting their positions instead of constantly blaming Clinton and evading the very serious issues facing this country today.

What do you want?

Will you stop with the rhetoric already? If the intel is wrong we need to find out how and when it went wrong no matter where it takes us. This is what I've been trying to get you and others to understand. It doesn't matter who is president if we can't rely on our intel. Yes it would be wrong to invade a country based soley on faulty intel. If it is proven to be the case then not only does the Admin need to take responsibility for not questioning the data more thoroughly but also those who gathered the intel need a serious accountability check.
It also seems that those who weilded the power to stop the war didn't see the need to question the intel - that is a big mistake. They are supposed to keep "cowboys" like Bush in check. They too should hold a piece of the accountability pie. You see Bowfinger - there is alot more to intel and war and "facts" and statements than the man at the top can control. But, Yes, Bush is our president and yes he will shoulder the brunt of the blame, IF the war was based on bad intel.

CkG
 
Originally posted by: bjc112
Lets see if there is a big turn out from the Dems in this thread.


funny how when clinton was ranting about the danger in iraq, all republicans could do was wail about monica. so much for loving your country.
 
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Will you stop with the rhetoric already? If the intel is wrong we need to find out how and when it went wrong no matter where it takes us. This is what I've been trying to get you and others to understand. It doesn't matter who is president if we can't rely on our intel. Yes it would be wrong to invade a country based soley on faulty intel. If it is proven to be the case then not only does the Admin need to take responsibility for not questioning the data more thoroughly but also those who gathered the intel need a serious accountability check.
It also seems that those who weilded the power to stop the war didn't see the need to question the intel - that is a big mistake. They are supposed to keep "cowboys" like Bush in check. They too should hold a piece of the accountability pie. You see Bowfinger - there is alot more to intel and war and "facts" and statements than the man at the top can control. But, Yes, Bush is our president and yes he will shoulder the brunt of the blame, IF the war was based on bad intel.

CkG
Good, something we can agree on. So you also support John Dean's call for a special prosecutor. Here is his article from FindLaw. He explains why we need a Special Prosecutor investigation. He reviews eight specific "facts" from the State of the Union, examining each for origin and accuracy. He also explains that presenting false information to Congress is a felony, and offers a historical perspective on this law.
From FindLaw, Why A Special Prosecutor's Investigation Is Needed To Sort Out the Niger Uranium And Related WMDs Mess
The heart of President Bush's January 28 State of the Union address was his case for going to war against Saddam Hussein. In making his case, the President laid out fact after fact about Saddam's alleged unconventional weapons. Indeed, the claim that these WMDs posed an imminent threat was his primary argument in favor of war.

Now, as more and more time passes with WMDs still not found, it seems that some of those facts may not have been true. In particular, recent controversy has focused on the President's citations to British intelligence purportedly showing that Saddam was seeking "significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

In this column, I will examine the publicly available evidence relating to this and other statements in the State of the Union concerning Saddam's WMDs. Obviously, I do not have access to the classified information the President doubtless relied upon. But much of the relevant information he drew from appears to have been declassified, and made available for inquiring minds.

[ ... ]

So egregious and serious are Bush's misrepresentations that they appear to be a deliberate effort to mislead Congress and the public. So arrogant and secretive is the Bush White House that only a special prosecutor can effectively answer and address these troubling matters. Since the Independent Counsel statute has expired, the burden is on President Bush to appoint a special prosecutor - and if he fails to do so, he should be held accountable by Congress and the public.

In making this observation, I realize that some Republicans will pound the patriotism drum, claiming that anyone who questions Bush's call to arms is politicizing the Iraqi war. But I have no interest in partisan politics, only good government - which is in serious trouble when we stop debating these issues, or absurdly accuse those who do of treason.

As Ohio's Republican Senator Robert A. Taft, a man whose patriotism cannot be questioned, remarked less than two weeks after Pearl Harbor, "[C]riticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government.... [T]he maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do the country ... more good than it will do the enemy [who might draw comfort from it], and it will prevent mistakes which might otherwise occur." (Emphasis added.)

[ ... ]

There is an unsavory stench about Bush's claims to the Congress, and nation, about Saddam Hussein's WMD threat. The deceptions are too apparent. There are simply too many unanswered questions, which have been growing daily. If the Independent Counsel law were still in existence, this situation would justify the appointment of an Independent Counsel.

Because that law has expired, if President Bush truly has nothing to hide, he should appoint a special prosecutor. After all, Presidents Nixon and Clinton, when not subject to the Independent Counsel law, appointed special prosecutors to investigate matters much less serious. If President Bush is truly the square shooter he portrays himself to be, he should appoint a special prosecutor to undertake an investigation.

Ideally, the investigation ought to be concluded - and the issue cleared up - well before the 2004 election, so voters know the character of the men (and women) they may or may not be re-electing.

Family, loved ones, and friends of those who have died, and continue to die, in Iraq deserve no less.
An informative and thoughtful article from a man who knows what he's talking about. Glad to hear you're on board with this, CkG. Let's get to the truth, no matter where it leads us.
 
Originally posted by: flavio
Wow....people just keep bringing up Clinton to justify what ShrubCo has done.

It doesn't work. Clinton is not president. He's not even in public office.
But he sure does know far more than you conspiracy theorists do about what Iraq has and doesn't have, now doesn't he?
 
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: flavio Wow....people just keep bringing up Clinton to justify what ShrubCo has done. It doesn't work. Clinton is not president. He's not even in public office.
So anything he says about current events should be completely ignored?
Go ahead and listen if you want, but it's just another opinion now. Maybe you could read this part though:
Clinton confined his remarks to biological and chemical weapons, and did not say whether he would consider credible any report that Saddam had wanted to build a nuclear weapons program. Nonetheless, he suggested that Bush's mistake was par for the course
Sounds like he's being awfully nice in calling it a "mistake". What a gentleman, but that's what makes him a good politician. The rest of us on the other hand don't have to be so nice about Shrubby's "mistake".
I don't know what I'd do to somebody who called me a good politician...

😉

 
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz Conservatives still beating that dead horse I see. Clinton never had 200+ US soldiers lives lost, nor did he kill 7000-10000 Iraqi civilians, nor did he make a mockery of American credibility in front of the International community. I don't see how Clinton's small mistake which was years ago is comparable to Bush's complete and utter fvckup. But than again, I'm a perfectly reasonable person.
I agree, we can't compare Bush to Clinton. Bush helping to free 22million Iraqis, having Liberia begging for Bush's aid, being looked to for guidence by Israel and the Palestinians, and Working with China and neighbors to deal with the NK situation just doesn't compare to Clinton. You're right sMiLeYz - it isn't a reasonable comparison. Clinton had 8 years to try to do things, look what Bush has done in just over 2! CkG
Let 9/11 happen under his watch? Made tax cuts for wealthy friends? Reverse all the progressive enviromental policies under Clinton, to more corporate friendly terms? Pass laws that curb our civil liberties? Squander all the good will countries around the world had towards us since 9/11? Get involved in a quagmire where every day our soldiers are being shot and killed? Watch him lie again in front of the American public, and continue to conceal, falsify, mislead, shift blame? I'm looking but I'm not seeing the bright side here...
So tell me again how Clinton prevented terrorists from crashing planes into the WTC towers?
 
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz Conservatives still beating that dead horse I see. Clinton never had 200+ US soldiers lives lost, nor did he kill 7000-10000 Iraqi civilians, nor did he make a mockery of American credibility in front of the International community. I don't see how Clinton's small mistake which was years ago is comparable to Bush's complete and utter fvckup. But than again, I'm a perfectly reasonable person.
I agree, we can't compare Bush to Clinton. Bush helping to free 22million Iraqis, having Liberia begging for Bush's aid, being looked to for guidence by Israel and the Palestinians, and Working with China and neighbors to deal with the NK situation just doesn't compare to Clinton. You're right sMiLeYz - it isn't a reasonable comparison. Clinton had 8 years to try to do things, look what Bush has done in just over 2! CkG
Let 9/11 happen under his watch? Made tax cuts for wealthy friends? Reverse all the progressive enviromental policies under Clinton, to more corporate friendly terms? Pass laws that curb our civil liberties? Squander all the good will countries around the world had towards us since 9/11? Get involved in a quagmire where every day our soldiers are being shot and killed? Watch him lie again in front of the American public, and continue to conceal, falsify, mislead, shift blame? I'm looking but I'm not seeing the bright side here...
So tell me again how Clinton prevented terrorists from crashing planes into the WTC towers?

Was that comment suppose to be smart remark? Because it certainly didnt make sense.
 
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: bjc112 Lets see if there is a big turn out from the Dems in this thread.
funny how when clinton was ranting about the danger in iraq, all republicans could do was wail about monica. so much for loving your country.
What? I've only read one post regarding Monica.
 
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz Conservatives still beating that dead horse I see. Clinton never had 200+ US soldiers lives lost, nor did he kill 7000-10000 Iraqi civilians, nor did he make a mockery of American credibility in front of the International community. I don't see how Clinton's small mistake which was years ago is comparable to Bush's complete and utter fvckup. But than again, I'm a perfectly reasonable person.
I agree, we can't compare Bush to Clinton. Bush helping to free 22million Iraqis, having Liberia begging for Bush's aid, being looked to for guidence by Israel and the Palestinians, and Working with China and neighbors to deal with the NK situation just doesn't compare to Clinton. You're right sMiLeYz - it isn't a reasonable comparison. Clinton had 8 years to try to do things, look what Bush has done in just over 2! CkG
Let 9/11 happen under his watch? Made tax cuts for wealthy friends? Reverse all the progressive enviromental policies under Clinton, to more corporate friendly terms? Pass laws that curb our civil liberties? Squander all the good will countries around the world had towards us since 9/11? Get involved in a quagmire where every day our soldiers are being shot and killed? Watch him lie again in front of the American public, and continue to conceal, falsify, mislead, shift blame? I'm looking but I'm not seeing the bright side here...
So tell me again how Clinton prevented terrorists from crashing planes into the WTC towers?
Was that comment suppose to be smart remark? Because it certainly didnt make sense.
You say that it's Bush's fault for letting 9/11 happen on his watch. But HOW do you know that it could only have happened to Bush? Specifically, why could the terrorist plane crashes not have happened to Clinton?
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Will you stop with the rhetoric already? If the intel is wrong we need to find out how and when it went wrong no matter where it takes us. This is what I've been trying to get you and others to understand. It doesn't matter who is president if we can't rely on our intel. Yes it would be wrong to invade a country based soley on faulty intel. If it is proven to be the case then not only does the Admin need to take responsibility for not questioning the data more thoroughly but also those who gathered the intel need a serious accountability check.
It also seems that those who weilded the power to stop the war didn't see the need to question the intel - that is a big mistake. They are supposed to keep "cowboys" like Bush in check. They too should hold a piece of the accountability pie. You see Bowfinger - there is alot more to intel and war and "facts" and statements than the man at the top can control. But, Yes, Bush is our president and yes he will shoulder the brunt of the blame, IF the war was based on bad intel.

CkG
Good, something we can agree on. So you also support John Dean's call for a special prosecutor. Here is his article from FindLaw. He explains why we need a Special Prosecutor investigation. He reviews eight specific "facts" from the State of the Union, examining each for origin and accuracy. He also explains that presenting false information to Congress is a felony, and offers a historical perspective on this law.
From FindLaw, Why A Special Prosecutor's Investigation Is Needed To Sort Out the Niger Uranium And Related WMDs Mess
The heart of President Bush's January 28 State of the Union address was his case for going to war against Saddam Hussein. In making his case, the President laid out fact after fact about Saddam's alleged unconventional weapons. Indeed, the claim that these WMDs posed an imminent threat was his primary argument in favor of war.

Now, as more and more time passes with WMDs still not found, it seems that some of those facts may not have been true. In particular, recent controversy has focused on the President's citations to British intelligence purportedly showing that Saddam was seeking "significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

In this column, I will examine the publicly available evidence relating to this and other statements in the State of the Union concerning Saddam's WMDs. Obviously, I do not have access to the classified information the President doubtless relied upon. But much of the relevant information he drew from appears to have been declassified, and made available for inquiring minds.

[ ... ]

So egregious and serious are Bush's misrepresentations that they appear to be a deliberate effort to mislead Congress and the public. So arrogant and secretive is the Bush White House that only a special prosecutor can effectively answer and address these troubling matters. Since the Independent Counsel statute has expired, the burden is on President Bush to appoint a special prosecutor - and if he fails to do so, he should be held accountable by Congress and the public.

In making this observation, I realize that some Republicans will pound the patriotism drum, claiming that anyone who questions Bush's call to arms is politicizing the Iraqi war. But I have no interest in partisan politics, only good government - which is in serious trouble when we stop debating these issues, or absurdly accuse those who do of treason.

As Ohio's Republican Senator Robert A. Taft, a man whose patriotism cannot be questioned, remarked less than two weeks after Pearl Harbor, "[C]riticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government.... [T]he maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do the country ... more good than it will do the enemy [who might draw comfort from it], and it will prevent mistakes which might otherwise occur." (Emphasis added.)

[ ... ]

There is an unsavory stench about Bush's claims to the Congress, and nation, about Saddam Hussein's WMD threat. The deceptions are too apparent. There are simply too many unanswered questions, which have been growing daily. If the Independent Counsel law were still in existence, this situation would justify the appointment of an Independent Counsel.

Because that law has expired, if President Bush truly has nothing to hide, he should appoint a special prosecutor. After all, Presidents Nixon and Clinton, when not subject to the Independent Counsel law, appointed special prosecutors to investigate matters much less serious. If President Bush is truly the square shooter he portrays himself to be, he should appoint a special prosecutor to undertake an investigation.

Ideally, the investigation ought to be concluded - and the issue cleared up - well before the 2004 election, so voters know the character of the men (and women) they may or may not be re-electing.

Family, loved ones, and friends of those who have died, and continue to die, in Iraq deserve no less.
An informative and thoughtful article from a man who knows what he's talking about. Glad to hear you're on board with this, CkG. Let's get to the truth, no matter where it leads us.
Hey Cad, where'd you go? I thought you'd be excited to finally connect with someone. I'm with you 100%. We need an independent special prosecutor to investigate Bush's intelligence and get to the truth behind the Iraqi invasion, no matter where it takes us. That's what you want too, right?
 
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz Conservatives still beating that dead horse I see. Clinton never had 200+ US soldiers lives lost, nor did he kill 7000-10000 Iraqi civilians, nor did he make a mockery of American credibility in front of the International community. I don't see how Clinton's small mistake which was years ago is comparable to Bush's complete and utter fvckup. But than again, I'm a perfectly reasonable person.
I agree, we can't compare Bush to Clinton. Bush helping to free 22million Iraqis, having Liberia begging for Bush's aid, being looked to for guidence by Israel and the Palestinians, and Working with China and neighbors to deal with the NK situation just doesn't compare to Clinton. You're right sMiLeYz - it isn't a reasonable comparison. Clinton had 8 years to try to do things, look what Bush has done in just over 2! CkG
Let 9/11 happen under his watch? Made tax cuts for wealthy friends? Reverse all the progressive enviromental policies under Clinton, to more corporate friendly terms? Pass laws that curb our civil liberties? Squander all the good will countries around the world had towards us since 9/11? Get involved in a quagmire where every day our soldiers are being shot and killed? Watch him lie again in front of the American public, and continue to conceal, falsify, mislead, shift blame? I'm looking but I'm not seeing the bright side here...
So tell me again how Clinton prevented terrorists from crashing planes into the WTC towers?
Was that comment suppose to be smart remark? Because it certainly didnt make sense.
You say that it's Bush's fault for letting 9/11 happen on his watch. But HOW do you know that it could only have happened to Bush? Specifically, why could the terrorist plane crashes not have happened to Clinton?

I'm not sure whether or not Clinton would have prevented it, but than again Clinton isn't in office is he? And 9/11 did happen.

Interview with Ray McGovern CIA Analyst for 27 years

PITT: Now why is that? There are people in America who believe this kind of behavior was deliberate ? the administration was repeatedly warned and nothing was done about those warnings. It smacks of deliberate policy for a lot of people. This is the current World Heavyweight Champion of conspiracy theories.

McG: In this, I am an adherent of the charitable interpretation, and that comes down to gross incompetence. They just didn?t know what to do. Look at who was in charge there. You have Condoleezza Rice. She knows a lot about Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, but she has no idea about terrorism. She had this terrorism dossier that Clinton NSC director Sandy Berger left behind, and by her own admission she didn?t get to it. ?It was still on my desk when September 11 happened,? she said. They didn?t take this thing seriously.

Now, you can probably fault George Tenet for not being careful about crying wolf. In other words, you cry wolf often enough and in an undifferentiated way, then that is not a real service to the President. You really have to say, ?Mr. President, you know I warned you about this two months ago, but now this is really serious.? You have to grab him by the collar and say, ?We?ve got to do something about this.? Tenet didn?t do that. So I attribute it not to conspiracy theories, but to lack of experience, a kind of arrogance that says, ?Who cares what Sandy Berger thinks,? and just gross incompetence.

Now ?gross incompetence? is not a nice thing to say about a President, but he had no experience in this at all, and the people he surrounded himself with also had no experience.

PITT: There was the August 6 2001 briefing?

McG: On August 6, the title of the briefing was, ?Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US,? and that briefing had the word ?Hijacking? in it. That?s all I know about it, but that?s quite enough. In September, Bush had to make a decision. Is it feasible to let go of Tenet, whose agency flubbed the dub on this one? And the answer was no, because Tenet knows too much about what Bush knew, and Bush didn?t know what to do about it. That?s the bottom line for me.

Bush was well-briefed. Before he went off to Texas to chop wood for a month like Reagan did in California, he was told all these things. He didn?t even have the presence of mind to convene his National Security Council, and say, ?OK guys, we have all these reports, what are we going to do about it?? He just went off to chop wood.

Draw your own conclusions.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Will you stop with the rhetoric already? If the intel is wrong we need to find out how and when it went wrong no matter where it takes us. This is what I've been trying to get you and others to understand. It doesn't matter who is president if we can't rely on our intel. Yes it would be wrong to invade a country based soley on faulty intel. If it is proven to be the case then not only does the Admin need to take responsibility for not questioning the data more thoroughly but also those who gathered the intel need a serious accountability check.
It also seems that those who weilded the power to stop the war didn't see the need to question the intel - that is a big mistake. They are supposed to keep "cowboys" like Bush in check. They too should hold a piece of the accountability pie. You see Bowfinger - there is alot more to intel and war and "facts" and statements than the man at the top can control. But, Yes, Bush is our president and yes he will shoulder the brunt of the blame, IF the war was based on bad intel.

CkG
Good, something we can agree on. So you also support John Dean's call for a special prosecutor. Here is his article from FindLaw. He explains why we need a Special Prosecutor investigation. He reviews eight specific "facts" from the State of the Union, examining each for origin and accuracy. He also explains that presenting false information to Congress is a felony, and offers a historical perspective on this law.
From FindLaw, Why A Special Prosecutor's Investigation Is Needed To Sort Out the Niger Uranium And Related WMDs Mess
The heart of President Bush's January 28 State of the Union address was his case for going to war against Saddam Hussein. In making his case, the President laid out fact after fact about Saddam's alleged unconventional weapons. Indeed, the claim that these WMDs posed an imminent threat was his primary argument in favor of war.

Now, as more and more time passes with WMDs still not found, it seems that some of those facts may not have been true. In particular, recent controversy has focused on the President's citations to British intelligence purportedly showing that Saddam was seeking "significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

In this column, I will examine the publicly available evidence relating to this and other statements in the State of the Union concerning Saddam's WMDs. Obviously, I do not have access to the classified information the President doubtless relied upon. But much of the relevant information he drew from appears to have been declassified, and made available for inquiring minds.

[ ... ]

So egregious and serious are Bush's misrepresentations that they appear to be a deliberate effort to mislead Congress and the public. So arrogant and secretive is the Bush White House that only a special prosecutor can effectively answer and address these troubling matters. Since the Independent Counsel statute has expired, the burden is on President Bush to appoint a special prosecutor - and if he fails to do so, he should be held accountable by Congress and the public.

In making this observation, I realize that some Republicans will pound the patriotism drum, claiming that anyone who questions Bush's call to arms is politicizing the Iraqi war. But I have no interest in partisan politics, only good government - which is in serious trouble when we stop debating these issues, or absurdly accuse those who do of treason.

As Ohio's Republican Senator Robert A. Taft, a man whose patriotism cannot be questioned, remarked less than two weeks after Pearl Harbor, "[C]riticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government.... [T]he maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do the country ... more good than it will do the enemy [who might draw comfort from it], and it will prevent mistakes which might otherwise occur." (Emphasis added.)

[ ... ]

There is an unsavory stench about Bush's claims to the Congress, and nation, about Saddam Hussein's WMD threat. The deceptions are too apparent. There are simply too many unanswered questions, which have been growing daily. If the Independent Counsel law were still in existence, this situation would justify the appointment of an Independent Counsel.

Because that law has expired, if President Bush truly has nothing to hide, he should appoint a special prosecutor. After all, Presidents Nixon and Clinton, when not subject to the Independent Counsel law, appointed special prosecutors to investigate matters much less serious. If President Bush is truly the square shooter he portrays himself to be, he should appoint a special prosecutor to undertake an investigation.

Ideally, the investigation ought to be concluded - and the issue cleared up - well before the 2004 election, so voters know the character of the men (and women) they may or may not be re-electing.

Family, loved ones, and friends of those who have died, and continue to die, in Iraq deserve no less.
An informative and thoughtful article from a man who knows what he's talking about. Glad to hear you're on board with this, CkG. Let's get to the truth, no matter where it leads us.
Hey Cad, where'd you go? I thought you'd be excited to finally connect with someone. I'm with you 100%. We need an independent special prosecutor to investigate Bush's intelligence and get to the truth behind the Iraqi invasion, no matter where it takes us. That's what you want too, right?

No - the intel agencies need to be checked out and all intel rechecked(not just Iraq intel - the report on 9/11 shows huge gaps in intel so we need to assess the whole thing). I will not agree with your statement because the tone that "article" you posted does not sound like it wants to go find the truth - it sounds like it wants to go find blame. Proscecutors "blame" - Investigators seek truths. We need Investigators and slueths and people who can analyze the failures and help rebuild a top-notch intel machine. Now if there is some wrong doing uncovered during the investigating then we need to hold those accountable - but the intel problems should be the focus.

CkG
 
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Will you stop with the rhetoric already? If the intel is wrong we need to find out how and when it went wrong no matter where it takes us. This is what I've been trying to get you and others to understand. It doesn't matter who is president if we can't rely on our intel. Yes it would be wrong to invade a country based soley on faulty intel. If it is proven to be the case then not only does the Admin need to take responsibility for not questioning the data more thoroughly but also those who gathered the intel need a serious accountability check.
It also seems that those who weilded the power to stop the war didn't see the need to question the intel - that is a big mistake. They are supposed to keep "cowboys" like Bush in check. They too should hold a piece of the accountability pie. You see Bowfinger - there is alot more to intel and war and "facts" and statements than the man at the top can control. But, Yes, Bush is our president and yes he will shoulder the brunt of the blame, IF the war was based on bad intel.

CkG
Good, something we can agree on. So you also support John Dean's call for a special prosecutor. Here is his article from FindLaw. He explains why we need a Special Prosecutor investigation. He reviews eight specific "facts" from the State of the Union, examining each for origin and accuracy. He also explains that presenting false information to Congress is a felony, and offers a historical perspective on this law.
From FindLaw, Why A Special Prosecutor's Investigation Is Needed To Sort Out the Niger Uranium And Related WMDs Mess
The heart of President Bush's January 28 State of the Union address was his case for going to war against Saddam Hussein. In making his case, the President laid out fact after fact about Saddam's alleged unconventional weapons. Indeed, the claim that these WMDs posed an imminent threat was his primary argument in favor of war.

Now, as more and more time passes with WMDs still not found, it seems that some of those facts may not have been true. In particular, recent controversy has focused on the President's citations to British intelligence purportedly showing that Saddam was seeking "significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

In this column, I will examine the publicly available evidence relating to this and other statements in the State of the Union concerning Saddam's WMDs. Obviously, I do not have access to the classified information the President doubtless relied upon. But much of the relevant information he drew from appears to have been declassified, and made available for inquiring minds.

[ ... ]

So egregious and serious are Bush's misrepresentations that they appear to be a deliberate effort to mislead Congress and the public. So arrogant and secretive is the Bush White House that only a special prosecutor can effectively answer and address these troubling matters. Since the Independent Counsel statute has expired, the burden is on President Bush to appoint a special prosecutor - and if he fails to do so, he should be held accountable by Congress and the public.

In making this observation, I realize that some Republicans will pound the patriotism drum, claiming that anyone who questions Bush's call to arms is politicizing the Iraqi war. But I have no interest in partisan politics, only good government - which is in serious trouble when we stop debating these issues, or absurdly accuse those who do of treason.

As Ohio's Republican Senator Robert A. Taft, a man whose patriotism cannot be questioned, remarked less than two weeks after Pearl Harbor, "[C]riticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government.... [T]he maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do the country ... more good than it will do the enemy [who might draw comfort from it], and it will prevent mistakes which might otherwise occur." (Emphasis added.)

[ ... ]

There is an unsavory stench about Bush's claims to the Congress, and nation, about Saddam Hussein's WMD threat. The deceptions are too apparent. There are simply too many unanswered questions, which have been growing daily. If the Independent Counsel law were still in existence, this situation would justify the appointment of an Independent Counsel.

Because that law has expired, if President Bush truly has nothing to hide, he should appoint a special prosecutor. After all, Presidents Nixon and Clinton, when not subject to the Independent Counsel law, appointed special prosecutors to investigate matters much less serious. If President Bush is truly the square shooter he portrays himself to be, he should appoint a special prosecutor to undertake an investigation.

Ideally, the investigation ought to be concluded - and the issue cleared up - well before the 2004 election, so voters know the character of the men (and women) they may or may not be re-electing.

Family, loved ones, and friends of those who have died, and continue to die, in Iraq deserve no less.
An informative and thoughtful article from a man who knows what he's talking about. Glad to hear you're on board with this, CkG. Let's get to the truth, no matter where it leads us.
Hey Cad, where'd you go? I thought you'd be excited to finally connect with someone. I'm with you 100%. We need an independent special prosecutor to investigate Bush's intelligence and get to the truth behind the Iraqi invasion, no matter where it takes us. That's what you want too, right?

No - the intel agencies need to be checked out and all intel rechecked(not just Iraq intel - the report on 9/11 shows huge gaps in intel so we need to assess the whole thing). I will not agree with your statement because the tone that "article" you posted does not sound like it wants to go find the truth - it sounds like it wants to go find blame. Proscecutors "blame" - Investigators seek truths. We need Investigators and slueths and people who can analyze the failures and help rebuild a top-notch intel machine. Now if there is some wrong doing uncovered during the investigating then we need to hold those accountable - but the intel problems should be the focus.

CkG
Thanks. That's what I thought you'd say. "Truth" is the last thing the Bush administration wants.

On the bright side, it's interesting to see that you think the Ken Starr investigation was about blame and not truth. I wonder what an equally rapid Democrat could find out about the Bush administration with $50 million and subpoena power.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Will you stop with the rhetoric already? If the intel is wrong we need to find out how and when it went wrong no matter where it takes us. This is what I've been trying to get you and others to understand. It doesn't matter who is president if we can't rely on our intel. Yes it would be wrong to invade a country based soley on faulty intel. If it is proven to be the case then not only does the Admin need to take responsibility for not questioning the data more thoroughly but also those who gathered the intel need a serious accountability check.
It also seems that those who weilded the power to stop the war didn't see the need to question the intel - that is a big mistake. They are supposed to keep "cowboys" like Bush in check. They too should hold a piece of the accountability pie. You see Bowfinger - there is alot more to intel and war and "facts" and statements than the man at the top can control. But, Yes, Bush is our president and yes he will shoulder the brunt of the blame, IF the war was based on bad intel.

CkG
Good, something we can agree on. So you also support John Dean's call for a special prosecutor. Here is his article from FindLaw. He explains why we need a Special Prosecutor investigation. He reviews eight specific "facts" from the State of the Union, examining each for origin and accuracy. He also explains that presenting false information to Congress is a felony, and offers a historical perspective on this law.
From FindLaw, Why A Special Prosecutor's Investigation Is Needed To Sort Out the Niger Uranium And Related WMDs Mess
The heart of President Bush's January 28 State of the Union address was his case for going to war against Saddam Hussein. In making his case, the President laid out fact after fact about Saddam's alleged unconventional weapons. Indeed, the claim that these WMDs posed an imminent threat was his primary argument in favor of war.

Now, as more and more time passes with WMDs still not found, it seems that some of those facts may not have been true. In particular, recent controversy has focused on the President's citations to British intelligence purportedly showing that Saddam was seeking "significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

In this column, I will examine the publicly available evidence relating to this and other statements in the State of the Union concerning Saddam's WMDs. Obviously, I do not have access to the classified information the President doubtless relied upon. But much of the relevant information he drew from appears to have been declassified, and made available for inquiring minds.

[ ... ]

So egregious and serious are Bush's misrepresentations that they appear to be a deliberate effort to mislead Congress and the public. So arrogant and secretive is the Bush White House that only a special prosecutor can effectively answer and address these troubling matters. Since the Independent Counsel statute has expired, the burden is on President Bush to appoint a special prosecutor - and if he fails to do so, he should be held accountable by Congress and the public.

In making this observation, I realize that some Republicans will pound the patriotism drum, claiming that anyone who questions Bush's call to arms is politicizing the Iraqi war. But I have no interest in partisan politics, only good government - which is in serious trouble when we stop debating these issues, or absurdly accuse those who do of treason.

As Ohio's Republican Senator Robert A. Taft, a man whose patriotism cannot be questioned, remarked less than two weeks after Pearl Harbor, "[C]riticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government.... [T]he maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do the country ... more good than it will do the enemy [who might draw comfort from it], and it will prevent mistakes which might otherwise occur." (Emphasis added.)

[ ... ]

There is an unsavory stench about Bush's claims to the Congress, and nation, about Saddam Hussein's WMD threat. The deceptions are too apparent. There are simply too many unanswered questions, which have been growing daily. If the Independent Counsel law were still in existence, this situation would justify the appointment of an Independent Counsel.

Because that law has expired, if President Bush truly has nothing to hide, he should appoint a special prosecutor. After all, Presidents Nixon and Clinton, when not subject to the Independent Counsel law, appointed special prosecutors to investigate matters much less serious. If President Bush is truly the square shooter he portrays himself to be, he should appoint a special prosecutor to undertake an investigation.

Ideally, the investigation ought to be concluded - and the issue cleared up - well before the 2004 election, so voters know the character of the men (and women) they may or may not be re-electing.

Family, loved ones, and friends of those who have died, and continue to die, in Iraq deserve no less.
An informative and thoughtful article from a man who knows what he's talking about. Glad to hear you're on board with this, CkG. Let's get to the truth, no matter where it leads us.
Hey Cad, where'd you go? I thought you'd be excited to finally connect with someone. I'm with you 100%. We need an independent special prosecutor to investigate Bush's intelligence and get to the truth behind the Iraqi invasion, no matter where it takes us. That's what you want too, right?

No - the intel agencies need to be checked out and all intel rechecked(not just Iraq intel - the report on 9/11 shows huge gaps in intel so we need to assess the whole thing). I will not agree with your statement because the tone that "article" you posted does not sound like it wants to go find the truth - it sounds like it wants to go find blame. Proscecutors "blame" - Investigators seek truths. We need Investigators and slueths and people who can analyze the failures and help rebuild a top-notch intel machine. Now if there is some wrong doing uncovered during the investigating then we need to hold those accountable - but the intel problems should be the focus.

CkG
Thanks. That's what I thought you'd say. "Truth" is the last thing the Bush administration wants.

On the bright side, it's interesting to see that you think the Ken Starr investigation was about blame and not truth. I wonder what an equally rapid Democrat could find out about the Bush administration with $50 million and subpoena power.

Did I say that the Ken Starr thing wasn't about blame? Starr was given tape recorded evidence of possible perjury and obstruction of justice. He went to the AG who took it to a panel who then authorized starr to investigate.
See - he was investigating a possible crime. To appoint a special prosecutor to find and fix problems with our intel would be assinine.

CkG

*note - for the record (again) I thought the Starr investigation was a tad over the top but it was started because possible perjury had occured.

Edit - nice to see your partisanship again Bow. 🙂 Gotta get the repubs back for what they did to Clinton
rolleye.gif
 
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Edit - nice to see your partisanship again Bow. 🙂 Gotta get the repubs back for what they did to Clinton
rolleye.gif
Right. Because everyone knows a BJ is the same as a $100 billion invasion that claims thousands of innocent lives.
rolleye.gif


Give it a rest.

I want the truth about our invasion of Iraq. You don't. It's as simple as that. Your objection to an independent special prosecutor shows that. Clinton and even Nixon had the integrity to appoint them. Bush-lite does not. You can call that partisan if you like. I call it corruption and a complete lack of character.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Edit - nice to see your partisanship again Bow. 🙂 Gotta get the repubs back for what they did to Clinton
rolleye.gif
Right. Because everyone knows a BJ is the same as a $100 billion invasion that claims thousands of innocent lives.
rolleye.gif


Give it a rest.

I want the truth about our invasion of Iraq. You don't. It's as simple as that. Your objection to an independent special prosecutor shows that. Clinton and even Nixon had the integrity to appoint them. Bush-lite does not. You can call that partisan if you like. I call it corruption and a complete lack of character.

You seem to forget my stance on this. I want the truth about the intel and it's process to be looked at since that seems to be the big concern. There were "criminal" charges in Nixon and Clintons cases. This one is about "faulty" intel - I want to find out how this intel was gotten and verified. We need to fix the intel process as the report on 9/11 shows. Lets dig in and find out where the intel is going wrong.

CkG
 
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