Climategate 2.0

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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
Everything I'm turning up in searches for "climategate investigation results" shows no fraud was found. Can you point to something that indicates otherwise?

You say fraud, martin said exonerate. Jones deleted e-mails and urged other scientists to delete e-mails after getting an official FOIA request. The investigating officer from the police said Jones had clearly violated the law, but due to the statute of limitations he couldn't be prosecuted. There are other examples, that is the most glaring illegal activity in my opinion in climategate 1.0.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Why would you ever have the need to delete e-mails? I've got e-mails 7 years old that I just archive, never delete. Just makes absolutely zero sense...
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,783
6,341
126
Considering "climategate" resulted in the complete exoneration of the accused, as well as a very public about face from one of the highest profile climate deniers, I probably wouldn't want to name anything "climategate 2.0".

But hey, those are the facts. And as we know, there's few things righties care less about than facts.

Indeed. Title should be, "Denier Dud 2.0"
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
I really doubt that there is an international conspiracy among climate scientists to further grant money. If the consensus was bullshit, someone would come forward with proof that it is all bullshit and make the history books for exposing the fraud of the century. To date, that has not happened, so I'm leaning towards the earth is warming.

The real questions are: Is human activity the primary cause of the warming? What are the consequences after we ascertain the severity? What is within reason (economically and socially) to reduce our impact if we are contributing significantly to it?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
I found it interesting the IPCC used a layman's hiking guide as an authoritative source for their report. I also think it is pretty slick how they used a plethora of non-peer reviewed reports as if they actually are meaningful scientific studies.

I also think it is awesome how people can discount 400,000 years worth of natural temperature cycles and pretend mankind is the cause of the current cycle (in which the temps amazingly follow the same pattern as the previous three cycles).
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
Cybrsage - you may want to read actual scientific graphs before you go quoting cycles that aren't in line with what you just described.


Doc - I'm going to have to put you on ignore from now on, this is just getting ridiculous for someone as smart as you think you are.

When monovillage says the examinations of 'climategate 1.0' didn't clear them of any wrong-doing - it's because, quite frankly, he's a moron.

When you say it - you know it's a lie, but you repeat it anyway since for some reason you think you are obliged to.

did the BEST study not teach you anything? These were people funded in large part by skeptics - and they pretty much confirmed that all of the leading temp models were...drumroll...correct.

This reeks of desperation and you are better than this.

As for the clowns who attack climate scientists with claims of 'unlimited funding' - who do you think provides more funding to scientists - the huge oil-related energy companies, which are among the most profitable companies in the world - like Exxon - or the huge companies that make 'green' energy...like.....ummm.....well......ahhh....wait a sec....oh, that's right - THERE AREN'T ANY!

Then we have Zando - who denies the science - because he thinks it's a money grab. Again - does the money in the energy sector lie in the hands of the oil companies, or the green tech ones? I'm fine if the debate is 'how to we best tackle the problem' - in fact I encourage it - but to deny all climate science because this is some sort of hoax? It's 2nd-grade level thinking, at best.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
Found a nice little summary of this 'scandal':

"Not satisfied with the fake scandal that was Climategate 1.0, climate denialists have returned with a another collection of quote-mined excerpts from the same batch of e-mails hacked from the University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit (CRU) two years ago.

The original release of quote-mined stolen e-mails coincided with the lead-up to Denmark's Copenhagen Climate Conference in 2009, where world leaders met to discuss and agree on actions to address man-made climate change (so much for that). Once again, this new batch of e-mails just so happen to surface before the gathering of world leaders for the climate conference in Durban, South Africa, which is to start next week.

Given that the quote-mined excerpts from the stolen e-mails contain nothing that challenges the robustness and validity of the veritable mountain of scientific evidence that underpins man-made global warming, its timing and content (or more accurately, lack thereof) strongly suggest this is yet another desperate attempt to influence public opinion and distract the policymakers attending the Durban conference. This is, no doubt, why prominent climate modeler Gavin Schmidt labels the new e-mail release "Two-year old turkey." - Rob Painting
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
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In 2010 the ICO (Information Commissioner's Office) affirmed that crimes had been committed, but they could not prosecute due to fact that the statutory time limit had expired. Dr. Phil Jones the chief climate officer of the Climatic Research Center confessed to the fact he had destroyed crucial documents that had been the subject of a FOIA request and had sent e-mails to other scientists to also destroy e-mails. Do you deny this NeoV ?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Cybrsage - you may want to read actual scientific graphs before you go quoting cycles that aren't in line with what you just described.

The ones which used a layman's hiking magazine as an authoritative scientific study? Uh...no thanks.

No one is claiming global warming does not exist. A mere 14,000 years ago most of the northern hemisphere was covered in ice. However, when you look at the last three warming and cooling cycles, the temps of today are right in line with them.

So unless the natural cycle stopped, why would the current temperature trend (which matches the natural cycle quite nicely) be man made and not natural (like all the others before it)?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Personaly, I will take a slightly warmer climate than having a glacier cover half the planet (which is going to happen once temps start to fall - the natural cycle confirms this).
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Doc - I'm going to have to put you on ignore from now on, this is just getting ridiculous for someone as smart as you think you are.
No problem. I can understand your cognitive dissonance when confronted with clear evidence of bad science like hiding data, deleting emails, illegal subversion of FOI requests, and conspiring to freeze out those scientists they disagree with...not to mention the candid thoughts from some of the top climate scientists in the world regarding the ethicality of "The Teams" blatant spin and manipulation of "science" to support "the cause". Fight or flight...you choose flight. Good riddance.

When monovillage says the examinations of 'climategate 1.0' didn't clear them of any wrong-doing - it's because, quite frankly, he's a moron.

When you say it - you know it's a lie, but you repeat it anyway since for some reason you think you are obliged to.
I never said that Jones and Mann were not cleared of "wrongdoing" by the 'appointed investigators'. If anyone is lying here...it's you.

did the BEST study not teach you anything? These were people funded in large part by skeptics - and they pretty much confirmed that all of the leading temp models were...drumroll...correct.
I have no issues with the BEST study. But tell me...did Mann's "hockey stick" dupe teach you anything?

Apparently not.
 
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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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Besides all the usual spin and lies, no real scientist would ever refer to scientific research or testing a hypothesis as being part of "the cause". These clowns know they are pushing a cause rather than actual science, and then they try to cover it up. A lot of idiots will fall for it though, MMGW is the biggest most successful con ever pulled.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
Still clinging to the 'hockey stick' talking point like a baby clinging to an old blanket?
Do you even understand the heart of the issue in the 'hockey stick' myth?

How about the re-construction of 15th century temperature records from tree rings...really, that's it. At the end of the day:

"An independent assessment of Mann's hockey stick was conducted by the National Center for Atmospheric Research (Wahl 2007). They reconstructed temperatures employing a variety of statistical techniques (with and without principal components analysis). Their results found slightly different temperatures in the early 15th Century. However, they confirmed the principal results of the original hockey stick - that the warming trend and temperatures over the last few decades are unprecedented over at least the last 600 years."

There is your smoking gun?


Also - I would certainly say they were exonerated of any wrong-doing, to wit:

" A number of independent enquiries have investigated the conduct of the scientists involved in the emails. All have cleared the scientists of any wrong doing:

In February 2010, the Pennsylvania State University released an Inquiry Report that investigated any 'Climategate' emails involving Dr Michael Mann, a Professor of Penn State's Department of Meteorology. They found that "there exists no credible evidence that Dr. Mann had or has ever engaged in, or participated in, directly or indirectly, any actions with an intent to suppress or to falsify data". On "Mike's Nature trick", they concluded "The so-called “trick”1 was nothing more than a statistical method used to bring two or more different kinds of data sets together in a legitimate fashion by a technique that has been reviewed by a broad array of peers in the field."

In March 2010, the UK government's House of Commons Science and Technology Committee published a report finding that the criticisms of the Climate Research Unit (CRU) were misplaced and that CRU’s "Professor Jones’s actions were in line with common practice in the climate science community".

In April 2010, the University of East Anglia set up an international Scientific Assessment Panel, in consultation with the Royal Society and chaired by Professor Ron Oxburgh. The Report of the International Panel assessed the integrity of the research published by the CRU and found "no evidence of any deliberate scientific malpractice in any of the work of the Climatic Research Unit".

In June 2010, the Pennsylvania State University published their Final Investigation Report, determining "there is no substance to the allegation against Dr. Michael E. Mann".

In July 2010, the University of East Anglia published the Independent Climate Change Email Review report. They examined the emails to assess whether manipulation or suppression of data occurred and concluded that "The scientists’ rigor and honesty are not in doubt".

In July 2010, the US Environmental Protection Agency investigated the emails and "found this was simply a candid discussion of scientists working through issues that arise in compiling and presenting large complex data sets."

In September 2010, the UK Government responded to the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report, chaired by Sir Muir Russell. On the issue of releasing data, they found "In the instance of the CRU, the scientists were not legally allowed to give out the data". On the issue of attempting to corrupt the peer-review process, they found "The evidence that we have seen does not suggest that Professor Jones was trying to subvert the peer review process. Academics should not be criticised for making informal comments on academic papers".

In February 2011, the Department of Commerce Inspector General conducted an independent review of the emails and found "no evidence in the CRU emails that NOAA inappropriately manipulated data".

In August 2011, the National Science Foundation concluded "Finding no research misconduct or other matter raised by the various regulations and laws discussed above, this case is closed".

So despite people investigating these 'charges' quite thoroughly, people like Doc and Poker and Mono - still don't get it. Climategate 1 was a non-event. This pile of BS - folks this is from the same batch of stolen emails - is more of the same - literally and figuratively.

Also funny how none of the denier crowd address the issue of the money discussion - there is clearly - in order of exponential differences, more money in the current energy structure in the world than there is working for the 'other side'. Look at Poker's comment above - MMGW is a successful con? What exactly have they been successful about? Do you think they are rolling in money - or do you think that the Exxon's of the world are bankrolling some of the so-called 'skeptics'? I'd venture to say there is considerably more money in being a 'denier' than being on the side of MMGW - fortunately for us, most real scientists are actually interested in facts and the scientific process.
 
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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Tell me...how could anyone who loves science defend these manipulative scumbags?

"Manipulative?" There's zero evidence that any data has been manipulated. Recent studies have confirmed that the temperature data and computations of the average global temperature increase are accurate. If there were any substantive evidence of data manipulation in this latest group of emails, which clearly were hacked at the same time as the emails release two years ago, do you think the hackers would have waited this long to release this set?

Only climate-change deniers insist that the science is bad. And the very timing of this latest release of emails only a week before the United Nations climate conference in Durban shows where the real political agenda lies.

Shame on you for jumping to the same conclusion you did before. You're confusing our-of-context emails by scientists with the validity of the science.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
Gotta love it.

"In February 2010, the Pennsylvania State University released an Inquiry Report that investigated any 'Climategate' emails involving Dr Michael Mann, a Professor of Penn State's Department of Meteorology. They found that "there exists no credible evidence that Dr. Mann had or has ever engaged in, or participated in, directly or indirectly, any actions with an intent to suppress or to falsify data". On "Mike's Nature trick", they concluded "The so-called “trick”1 was nothing more than a statistical method used to bring two or more different kinds of data sets together in a legitimate fashion by a technique that has been reviewed by a broad array of peers in the field."

"In June 2010, the Pennsylvania State University published their Final Investigation Report, determining "there is no substance to the allegation against Dr. Michael E. Mann"."

Thanks for the humor, i mean after all who could doubt any investigation by Penn State? Only some denier types i guess.

BTW do you deny that Jones broke the law by destroying e-mails or not?
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
I get it - a pedo football coach means Penn St. can't do anything correctly - forgetting completely the other 8 investigations, not done by Penn St. - I see how your mind works...

Jones didn't break any laws by the way - how about the laws that were broken to hack into their emails in the first place?
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
He confessed to breaking the law. Guess who i'm going to believe about it, you or him? Penn State has earned a reputation for institutional cover -ups, I find it pretty hilarious that you want to highlight them when you talk about investigations. Hacking into a computer network and releasing private e-mails is wrong. I don't support it even though the scientific community has benefited from it.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
He confessed to breaking the law. Guess who i'm going to believe about it, you or him? Penn State has earned a reputation for institutional cover -ups, I find it pretty hilarious that you want to highlight them when you talk about investigations. Hacking into a computer network and releasing private e-mails is wrong. I don't support it even though the scientific community has benefited from it.

This is your argument? Lmao. These people are so stupid they think they are smart.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
This is your argument? Lmao. These people are so stupid they think they are smart.
I simply pointed out that although Phil Jones (head of the CRU) admitted to the crime of deleting e-mails that were subject to FOIA inquiries and sent an e-mail to Michael Mann (now at Penn State) telling him to delete e-mails to avoid a FOIA and to forward this e-mail to Eugene Wahl (now with NCDC) who also admitted to deleting the e-mails were not mentioned at all by any of the "investigations" that NeoV clings to so desperately. It's not even disputed by the scientists involved that it happened, it's only disputed by ignorant and partisan fools.
 

AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
6,022
561
126
Cybrsage - you may want to read actual scientific graphs before you go quoting cycles that aren't in line with what you just described.


Doc - I'm going to have to put you on ignore from now on, this is just getting ridiculous for someone as smart as you think you are.

When monovillage says the examinations of 'climategate 1.0' didn't clear them of any wrong-doing - it's because, quite frankly, he's a moron.

When you say it - you know it's a lie, but you repeat it anyway since for some reason you think you are obliged to.

did the BEST study not teach you anything? These were people funded in large part by skeptics - and they pretty much confirmed that all of the leading temp models were...drumroll...correct.

This reeks of desperation and you are better than this.

As for the clowns who attack climate scientists with claims of 'unlimited funding' - who do you think provides more funding to scientists - the huge oil-related energy companies, which are among the most profitable companies in the world - like Exxon - or the huge companies that make 'green' energy...like.....ummm.....well......ahhh....wait a sec....oh, that's right - THERE AREN'T ANY!

Then we have Zando - who denies the science - because he thinks it's a money grab. Again - does the money in the energy sector lie in the hands of the oil companies, or the green tech ones? I'm fine if the debate is 'how to we best tackle the problem' - in fact I encourage it - but to deny all climate science because this is some sort of hoax? It's 2nd-grade level thinking, at best.



Beautifully said. Strongly seconded.

Look, if we could take the whole Earth's athmosphere and compress it in a way that would allow it to maintain the same density everywhere, its thickness would be a mere 5 kilometres. Now think about all the crap we've been spewing in the air for the last 150 years or so... suddenly, climate change becomes frighteningly possible - and believable.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,748
10,055
136
I really doubt that there is an international conspiracy among climate scientists to further grant money. If the consensus was bullshit, someone would come forward with proof that it is all bullshit and make the history books for exposing the fraud of the century. To date, that has not happened, so I'm leaning towards the earth is warming.

The real questions are: Is human activity the primary cause of the warming? What are the consequences after we ascertain the severity? What is within reason (economically and socially) to reduce our impact if we are contributing significantly to it?

I've got a real question for ya: How corrupt are the SOBs in charge of the data, who act like political activists more than they do scientists?

Progressives vote for progressives, and conservatives vote for conservatives across the globe, are those votes an international conspiracy? No, I'd say that's simply the nature of the beast. These folks controlling the data are eco activists with an agenda. They are not partial and they are hell bent on creating global warming themselves.

Here's a taste of the corruption on display now, thanks to these e-mails.

Smoking Gun For Phil Jones?
Nov. 24, 2009 : “We’ve not deleted any emails or data here at CRU”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
A year earlier he spent a good part of a day deleting e-mails in response to an FOI request
From: Phil Jones
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:31 PM
To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB)
Subject: Re: FW: FOI_08-50 ; EIR_08-01
Dave,
Do I understand it correctly – if he doesn’t pay the <A3>10 we don’t have to respond?
With the earlier FOI requests re David Holland, I wasted a part of a day deleting numerous emails and exchanges with almost all the skeptics. So I have virtually nothing. I even deleted the email that I inadvertently sent. There might be some bits of pieces of paper, but I’m not wasting my time going through these.
Cheers
Phil