Climate skeptics hold scientific review, unexpectedly find global warming is real

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Jun 26, 2007
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You're ignoring the science, while skeptics usually get charged with being anti-science you are pretty much a poster child of it. You need to look at the scientific peer reviewed studies which show negative feedbacks to increased CO2. Here's a few more studies and or articles with peer reviewed links that show what science is saying about it. i won't include the previous link.

http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.c...egetation-feedback-within-the-climate-system/

http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/09/decadal-variability-of-clouds/

http://judithcurry.com/2010/12/29/climate-feedbacks-part-i/

http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.c...he-assessement-of-climate-beyond-co2-effects/

http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.c...drometeorological-events-by-dr-millan-millan/

Yeah, so slaughter vegetation and use fossile fuels means that it won't work, the ONLY way the cycle works is if we use renewable fuel sources, the CO2 that it expended by burning a tree is the same as it takes growing it.

But we fight overvegetation by cutting and poisoning the water to get rid of inlake algae and vegetation in areas where we live.

It's not like this has not been part of the considerations from the get you.

You do realise that Roger Pielke doesn't support your standpoint and yet it's him you quote?
 
Jun 26, 2007
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CO2 is a trace gas, the current rise is irrelevant. You complain about a needle in a haystack of greenhouse gases. Our contribution is a fraction of a percent of the atmosphere. It is nothing that natural variance does not completely overwrite.

You don't just want money. The Church of Global Warming demands an end to our very way of life to 'save the planet' from their fairy tale. It is no more reasonable than demanding the entire planet convert to Catholicism and banning birth control.

The plant is not a lab. There are physics and natural variables involved we don't even begin to understand, but don't worry. I'm sure political proponents of your Church, hiding under the guise of science, have written computer models where the numbers go up.

How's that working out for Antarctic sea ice? Yeah... it's near record extent. Okay... in 2000 it meant LESS snow. Now after tons of snow they say it means MORE snow. After Katrina in 2005, they said it meant MORE hurricanes. Now we have a record low.

The science is only settled in your faith. A planet is not a small box. You want to be concerned about the environment? You should worry about the increase in human population. Oh, that's right your Church has a plan for that, where you get to dictate to us how to live our lives. Your tyranny against human civilization will not be allowed to rule us.

*Edit to clean up

The ignorance rages on, i did my part to stop it, but denial is so much easier, that way, you don't actually have to have an opinion, just stick your head up your arse and breathe methane.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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There are still people dumb enough to believe MMGW isn't real? Holy shit.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
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Yeah, so slaughter vegetation and use fossile fuels means that it won't work, the ONLY way the cycle works is if we use renewable fuel sources, the CO2 that it expended by burning a tree is the same as it takes growing it.

But we fight overvegetation by cutting and poisoning the water to get rid of inlake algae and vegetation in areas where we live.

It's not like this has not been part of the considerations from the get you.

You do realise that Roger Pielke doesn't support your standpoint and yet it's him you quote?

Roger Pielke Sr. agrees with some of the science of Climate Change, one thing he doesn't agree with are the too simplistic GCMs (Global Climate Models) and zero-dimensional models referenced in an earlier post, along with the idea that there are no negative feed backs from CO2.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
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There are still people dumb enough to believe MMGW isn't real? Holy shit.

You can join John of Sheffield in looking over the scientific peer reviewed links posted earlier to gain a better understanding of MMGW or lack of it. Sometimes ignorance isn't bliss.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Roger Pielke Sr. agrees with some of the science of Climate Change, one thing he doesn't agree with are the too simplistic GCMs (Global Climate Models) and zero-dimensional models referenced in an earlier post, along with the idea that there are no negative feed backs from CO2.

Actually, he goes further than the GCM's and presents the problem as more acute, doesn't he?

It might be a good idea to know something about the people you are championing for opposite opinions?

There are negative feed backs, but we will have none of them, do you think we will allow overvegetation where we live? Do you know that we as humans are expanding areas where we live? This is news that is so old that if you had printed them 100 years ago people would still have told you it's old news.

The key to draw conclusions of your own is knowledge, if you don't have it, you will fail to draw conclusions, so get enough knowledge to draw your own conclusions, i know it's hard if you are hellbent on going against science every step of the way but hey, at the very least you can come up with a new religion...

Right?
 
Jun 26, 2007
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You can join John of Sheffield in looking over the scientific peer reviewed links posted earlier to gain a better understanding of MMGW or lack of it. Sometimes ignorance isn't bliss.

Worthless links for your side were posted, lets get beyond that, you were talking about real studies, link those.

And no, not articles, not non peer reviewed studies, REAL studies that support a case that you really don't even know what it is, do you?

And Jesus rode on dinosaurs, i've seen that in an article, from a museum that a doctor set up, he made studies too.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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The "lab setting" is general eath atmosphere you daft twat.

I do know the complaint of not considering "factors" which is the laymans approach to deny verifiable science.

Just know that you have no support what so ever, not even from one in the field when you say that it's not certain if CO2 does affect the earths temperature as a greenhouse gass, even the deniars are fully aware on that and try to show charts of volcanic release of CO2 and it's effects on tempertatures fully forgetting that ash works in the opposite way so when nature does it, even if the release of CO2 is greater, it blocks out most of the effects.

But sure, you can be the only retard in the crowd if you want to and deny that CO2 is a greenhouse gas.

the lab test doesn't include our solar system, galaxy, universe and every other possible thing that exists to give a proper test. we cannot setup a lab to test our planet, just locales.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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What's scary is you take 2% of the data, with concerns to whether the temperature record is a fabrication, they realize that the 2% holds true to other findings, and you think that means anything significant at all. My skepticism is based on the assumption that the temperature record IS accurate. 0.7C is nothing, half of which is easily within the margin of error.

Oh, and we all know Berkeley is a bastion of conservatism. Clearly it's run by skeptics.

Yes, in fact Dr. Muller was considered a skeptic, even by people like Anthony Watts of wattsupwiththat.com. Who incidentally said that they had full confidence in him and his methods, and that he would "accept whatever result they produce":

Word is going round that Richard Muller is leading a group of physicists, statisticians, and climatologists to re-estimate the yearly global average temperature, from which we can say such things like this year was warmer than last but not warmer than three years ago. Muller’s project is a good idea, and his named team are certainly up to it.

...

Now contrast Rohde with Dr. Muller who has gone on record as saying that he disagrees with some of the methods seen in previous science related to the issue. We have what some would call a “warmist” and a “skeptic” both leading a project. When has that ever happened in Climate Science?

...

His method, which I’ve been given in confidence and agreed not to discuss, gave me me one of those “Gee whiz, why didn’t I think of that?” moments. So, the fact that he was willing to look at the problem fresh, and come up with a solution that speaks to skeptical concerns, gives me greater confidence that he isn’t just another Hansen and Jones re-run.

But here’s the thing: I have no certainty nor expectations in the results. Like them, I have no idea whether it will show more warming, about the same, no change, or cooling in the land surface temperature record they are analyzing. Neither do they, as they have not run the full data set, only small test runs on certain areas to evaluate the code. However, I can say that having examined the method, on the surface it seems to be a novel approach that handles many of the issues that have been raised.

As a reflection of my increased confidence, I have provided them with my surfacestations.org dataset to allow them to use it to run a comparisons against their data. The only caveat being that they won’t release my data publicly until our upcoming paper and the supplemental info (SI) has been published. Unlike NCDC and Menne et al, they respect my right to first publication of my own data and have agreed.

And, I’m prepared to accept whatever result they produce, even if it proves my premise wrong. I’m taking this bold step because the method has promise. So let’s not pay attention to the little yippers who want to tear it down before they even see the results. I haven’t seen the global result, nobody has, not even the home team, but the method isn’t the madness that we’ve seen from NOAA, NCDC, GISS, and CRU, and, there aren’t any monetary strings attached to the result that I can tell. If the project was terminated tomorrow, nobody loses jobs, no large government programs get shut down, and no dependent programs crash either.

That lack of strings attached to funding, plus the broad mix of people involved especially those who have previous experience in handling large data sets gives me greater confidence in the result being closer to a bona fide ground truth than anything we’ve seen yet. Dr. Fred Singer also gives a tentative endorsement of the methods.

Unfortunately emotion and ego drives far too many of us to lamely stick to positions when we really should at the minimum admit that we may be wrong.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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There are still people dumb enough to believe MMGW isn't real? Holy shit.

Settled Science:


Peer reviewed.
Amazon dry season greener
Amazon dry season browner


Avalanches may increase
Avalanches may decrease – wet snow more though


Bird migrations longer
Bird migrations shorter
Bird migrations out of fashion


Boreal forest fires may increase
Boreal forest fires may continue decreasing


Chinese locusts swarm when warmer
Chinese locusts swarm when cooler


Columbia spotted frogs decline
Columbia spotted frogs thrive in warming world


Coral island atolls to sink
Coral island atolls to rise


Earth’s rotation to slow down
Earth’s rotation to speed up


East Africa to get less rain
East Africa to get more rain – pdf


Great Lakes less snow
Great Lakes more snow


Gulf stream slows down
Gulf stream speeds up a little


Indian monsoons to be drier
Indian monsoons to be wetter


Indian rice yields to decrease – full paper
Indian rice yields to increase


Latin American forests may decline
Latin American forests have thrived in warmer world with more co2!


Leaf area index reduced [1990s]
Leaf area index increased [1981-2006]


Malaria may increase
Malaria may continue decreasing


Malaria in Burundi to increase
Malaria in Burundi to decrease


North Atlantic cod to decline
North Atlantic cod to thrive


North Atlantic cyclone frequency to increase
North Atlantic cyclone frequency to decrease – full pdf


North Atlantic Ocean less salty
North Atlantic Ocean more salty


Northern Hemisphere ice sheets to decline
Northern Hemisphere ice sheets to grow


Plant methane emissions significant
Plant methane emissions insignificant


Plants move uphill
Plants move downhill


Sahel to get less rain
Sahel to get more rain
Sahel may get more or less rain


San Francisco less foggy
San Francisco more foggy


Sea level rise accelerated
Sea level rise decelerated – full pdf


Soil moisture less
Soil moisture more


Squids get smaller
Squids get larger


Stone age hunters may have triggered past warming
Stone age hunters may have triggered past cooling


Swiss mountain debris flow may increase
Swiss mountain debris flow may decrease
Swiss mountain debris flow may decrease then increase in volume


UK may get more droughts
UK may get more rain


Wind speed to go up
Wind speed slows down
Wind speed to speed up then slow down


Winters maybe warmer
Winters maybe colder
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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I fully accept that the data shows a 0.7C increase over the last 100 years.

as do I.

And no JoS, they do not have a lab environment that simulates our universe let alone our planet. How can they accurately model our planet when we don't know everything there is to know about it? Because of that "reasonable doubt" I cast aside anyone or anything saying they KNOW man is causing this climate change. Especially when the climate has ALWAYS CHANGED.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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What are you arguing for ? We shouldn't do anything to reduce the carbon footprint of people because people don't want to live in huts ?

Seems like a good reason to do the opposite to me. Besides the potential carbon savings, some newer tech will be less costly and easier to implement than building old tech. Possibly.

One of the big costs for us of new tech, is switching over from our established power systems. Undeveloped parts of the world don't have to do that, they can go right to the newer systems, provided we keep working and investing in new ideas.

example-much cheaper to build cell towers than it is to run telephone lines and optical cable all over Africa. Not energy related, but the same thing could apply to energy. Localized wind power doesn't require long distance transmission that's expensive to build and maintain, and wastes a lot of the power.

Right now TODAY it is far cheaper to build coal plants with the power lines.

My argument is extremely simple, how do you convince people that are living like shit to not improve their lives due to global warming concerns? If your argument is that they should wait for tech to mature, how do you convince them to do that? If your argument is to use far more expensive (even if just initially) tech, how do you convince them to do that? We bitch rather loudly in this country that people the next city over have better cell service or internet service, we are talking electricity and running water.

If they tell us to pound sand, then what? We retard our economy for zero gain?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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There you go, save the planet, nuke the natives.

The way I see it, if we do have man made global warming and if it is as bad as they say it is we have 2 options. Both of them involve using nuclear technology, one way is to use it for power globally the second way is to simply kill the poor fuckers that want to live the life of extreme excess with things like electricity and running water.

This is the most important topic in the entire discussion yet it is the least discussed one. Why is that? Simple, there is no answer to it.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
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Worthless links for your side were posted, lets get beyond that, you were talking about real studies, link those.

And no, not articles, not non peer reviewed studies, REAL studies that support a case that you really don't even know what it is, do you?

And Jesus rode on dinosaurs, i've seen that in an article, from a museum that a doctor set up, he made studies too.

No reason to throw a tantrum young man. Every link I cited is either a peer reviewed study or includes links to peer reviewed studies in it. As I stated earlier Roger Pielke Sr. agrees that their is some MMCC, to what the amount is he's still undecided. One of his areas of study is CO2 and other greenhouse gases that are released by land use such as agriculture and forestry. This is science, I don't just include links that agree with me 100%, but links to show that the science isn't settled and there are questions that need to be answered before we rush off to spend trillions of dollars on unnecessary and damaging faux solutions.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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I give up, some people are fine with dismissing ALL sane studies an believing articles written by people that even ADMIT THAT THEY KNOW THEY ARE WRONG!

There is no sense arguing about it when the denial of truth is as big as that who denied Galileo of his research.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Some people cannot be convinced of things even after they've seen the demonstration with their own eyes.

Yeah, i get involved in this shit all the time and still expect retards to understande the science that has been proven time and time again...

I should know better, the retards never understand anything unless they are told by their local tribesman (republican congressman) that ohotahuuu means yes we believe in which case they will agree and then jump areound like monkeys celebrating.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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No reason to throw a tantrum young man. Every link I cited is either a peer reviewed study or includes links to peer reviewed studies in it. As I stated earlier Roger Pielke Sr. agrees that their is some MMCC, to what the amount is he's still undecided. One of his areas of study is CO2 and other greenhouse gases that are released by land use such as agriculture and forestry. This is science, I don't just include links that agree with me 100%, but links to show that the science isn't settled and there are questions that need to be answered before we rush off to spend trillions of dollars on unnecessary and damaging faux solutions.

Yeah, you didn't read what you linked, did you, son?

I don't give a FUCK about who says what, what i care about is the science behind the statement and you have provided absolutely NONE!
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
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Settled Science:


Peer reviewed.

Instead of counting as "unresolved" scientific questions where there's at least one peer-reviewed study on each side, why don't you count the number of peer-reviewed papers on each side? Or is it really your position that "consensus" must entail unanimity?
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
32
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I dont know many who are denying climate change.

Denial is getting to be a major religion of the Right. Religious thought tends to be compartmentalized nowadays, though, so it's not something that you'll find coming up in normal conversation.
You can't tell someone who has a Big Sky Daddy from an atheist from normal conversation, either.


Edit: Just to placate the foaming-at-the-mouth leftists, I'm not a crazy anti-global warming nut. I think it's real, although like these scientists I do not put any faith in the government-run studies on the subject. There are simply too many monetary and political interests involved.

This highlights a problem of the Right: A complete cluelessness about the scientific arena. They model it as though, underneath the lab coats, it's just professional wrestling.
Science is science. It is the anti-bullshit. That bullshitters exist outside the scientific framework doesn't mean that bullshitters that try to enter it don't get their asses handed to them.
Skeptical inquiry is a scientist's job. And it isn't a Fox News viewer's version: "Deny everything that's complex or that I don't like. Find a meme that feels 'homey', then I know I'm home." It is instead: Question all assertions. Deny your own hypothesis. Work up from the evidence -- find why it's false. Can't disprove it? That means it's time to hand it off to someone else and give them a shot at destroying it. If they can't, either, then you give it to the entire community.
Your average idiot thinks that science is about building ideas. It's not. Any idiot can imagine. Science is science because it's ruthlessly destructive to ideas. It is uber-Darwinian.


Over the years, Muller has praised Watts' efforts to show that weather station data in official studies are untrustworthy because of the urban heat island effect, which boosts temperature readings in areas that have been encroached on by cities and suburbs.

But leading climatologists said the previous studies accounted for the effect, and the Berkeley analysis is confirming that, Muller acknowledged. "Did such poor station quality exaggerate the estimates of global warming?" he asked in his written testimony. "We've studied this issue, and our preliminary answer is no."

It has always amused me that deniers latched with such ferocity to the heat island effect. Perfect example of confirmation bias, where the believer completely fails to look for anything that goes against the idea.
It's been known for decades. It's well-studied, and the offsets have been calculated and recalculated. Gets mentioned constantly by any TV meteorologist who covers a major metro area. Yet the legion of "D" students known as "conservatives" think that the entirety of climatological studies forgot to account for it.

It's rather like asking whether Hawking forgot to account for gravity in his work on black holes. Not bloody likely.
 
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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
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There wouldn't even have been this debate if environmentalist didn't trump up data and use scare tactics trying to get us to believe the world is coming to an end. Back in the 80's according to them by now we should all be walking in knee deep trash from all the land fills being full and not able to breath from all the pollution. We should also all have skin cancer now from the hole in the ozone layer and NY should be flooded from the polar caps melting.

.7C increase over the last 100 years seems to be the common conclusion, but that is still well within the natural variations recorded in the last millennium and certainly inline with a lot of studies of where we should be having a Little Ice Age just 150 years ago or so.

So what does everyone propose we do about it? Start slapping more fines on companies that produce the things our society demands? That will only lead to higher prices on American goods when we are already competing against countries that are absolutely laying waste to their own environments.

This being a right vs. left issue has about as much function as a screen door on a submarine. Stop using this issue to go after taxing corporations and start going after China, Russia and the other countries that don't have 1/10th our emission standards.
 
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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
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Denial is getting to be a major religion of the Right. Religious thought tends to be compartmentalized nowadays, though, so it's not something that you'll find coming up in normal conversation.
You can't tell someone who has a Big Sky Daddy from an atheist from normal conversation, either.

And trumping up data and skewing facts has long been the status quo from the left. Just shut up before we ship your job overseas in lieu of a tax cut for the rich.