Climate change deniers: how can you debate them?

[Fritzo]

I think the Earth is warming due to man-made pollution...the facts are all there. However, I have a friend who is a "staunch" Republican and uses Drudge Report as his main source of news. He's a climate change denier, pointing out that every single prediction about climate catastrophe so far has been false.

After doing some research...he's actually right. In the 70's, the media said the Earth was cooling, and they were wrong. In the 80's, the US coasts were supposed to be underwater by now. They were wrong. Same for the 90's and early 00's.

If your weatherman is wrong every time, you won't trust his forecasts. I need something to go on here. I'm in belief that we're unlocking a series of events that will grow larger and larger (meaning there won't be some sudden "Day After Tomorrow" situation that occurs), but it's tough to reason with someone when there's such a spotty past of reliability.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Is the climate changing - sure. Climate always changes on Earth.

Is the climate change man made? Unknown

Does the world Govt's have an agenda in this? Yes

Should we do our best to have clean air & water? Hell Yes

The worlds gross polluters reside in China & India. Fix those shitholes first.

One container ship emits how much pollution? http://www.industrytap.com/worlds-1...pollution-than-all-the-cars-in-the-world/8182

Your friend is right, he wants the heavy handed Govt which manipulates scientific data on global warming to stop making Govt bigger.

For more on the NOAA and NASA and how they have fabricated results on the earts temperatures see here: http://realclimatescience.com/

 

[Paratus]

I think the Earth is warming due to man-made pollution...the facts are all there. However, I have a friend who is a "staunch" Republican and uses Drudge Report as his main source of news. He's a climate change denier, pointing out that every single prediction about climate catastrophe so far has been false.

After doing some research...he's actually right. In the 70's, the media said the Earth was cooling, and they were wrong. In the 80's, the US coasts were supposed to be underwater by now. They were wrong. Same for the 90's and early 00's.

If your weatherman is wrong every time, you won't trust his forecasts. I need something to go on here. I'm in belief that we're unlocking a series of events that will grow larger and larger (meaning there won't be some sudden "Day After Tomorrow" situation that occurs), but it's tough to reason with someone when there's such a spotty past of reliability.

1st off, while some mainstream media played like global cooling was a thing almost all of the peer reviewed literature expected warming.

2nd basically none of the peer reviewed literature suggested the coasts would be underwater by now.

3rd if you want to argue with climate change deniers using facts feel free to search "climate" in P&N. Myself and others have probably answered just about any question your friend has about 10 times over. Don't expect facts or science to change his mind however.

Lastly you can start with this:
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

And this

http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/climatescience.html

 

[TheGardener]

Why argue? Have him arrested for atrocities to the global environment by his hate speech. For a first offense, he'll be sent to Re-Education camp. Electrical shock therapy is a common treatment. I shudder to think of what will happen for a second offense.

 

[master_shake_]

if all else fails run to your safe space.

 

[Paratus]

Is the climate changing - sure. Climate always changes on Earth.

Is the climate change man made? Unknown

Does the world Govt's have an agenda in this? Yes

Should we do our best to have clean air & water? Hell Yes

The worlds gross polluters reside in China & India. Fix those shitholes first.

One container ship emits how much pollution? http://www.industrytap.com/worlds-1...pollution-than-all-the-cars-in-the-world/8182

Your friend is right, he wants the heavy handed Govt which manipulates scientific data on global warming to stop making Govt bigger.

For more on the NOAA and NASA and how they have fabricated results on the earts temperatures see here: http://realclimatescience.com/

 

[Jodell88]

The worlds gross polluters reside in China & India. Fix those shitholes first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

Maybe you should fix your shithole first.

 

[master_shake_]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

Maybe you should fix your shithole first.

russia wtf dude D:

 

[JoeBleed]

Is the climate changing - sure. Climate always changes on Earth.

Is the climate change man made? Unknown

Does the world Govt's have an agenda in this? Yes

Should we do our best to have clean air & water? Hell Yes

The worlds gross polluters reside in China & India. Fix those shitholes first.

One container ship emits how much pollution? http://www.industrytap.com/worlds-1...pollution-than-all-the-cars-in-the-world/8182

Your friend is right, he wants the heavy handed Govt which manipulates scientific data on global warming to stop making Govt bigger.

For more on the NOAA and NASA and how they have fabricated results on the earts temperatures see here: http://realclimatescience.com/

I think you'll find much more evidence we've probably done more damage to water than we have the air. As stated in the quote above, there seems to be a big political agenda behind global warming/climate change. the restrictions and exemptions are almost laughable in a sad way.

While i'll agree man kind, mostly in and after the industrial revolution in what ever country you're in/from, has impacted the climate, i don't believe it is anywhere near the degree claimed by groups supporting climate change.

i'd also like to add to the gross polluters seems to be government agencies and military themselves. I have no links for it, but i've read in the past about burning off debris/trash,chemicals. ships, though i don't think it's only military, dumping waste in the ocean. Maybe that's not done anymore, not sure. Seems like i've been told jets landing on carriers dump excess fuel before landing. I can understand the need due to physics, but still seems like a bad idea. And maybe his is only for emergency landings. It wasn't made clear to me by the person that was, a long time ago, stationed on a carrier. Any current or recent Navy personnel know?

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

You have to make it personally emotional somehow. Provide a concrete example of how ot impacted your life directly.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

Maybe you should fix your shithole first.

Didn't realize when it came to pollution we were only talking about CO2

How are those rivers and lakes doing in India & China? Why is almost all of the heavy metal air pollution in California from China as it drifts across the Pacific?

Shitholes.

 

[clamum]

Maybe suggest to him this book (I saw it in the What are you reading? thread): The End of Doom: Environmental Renewal in the Twenty-first Century

It's changed my mind about global warming. I had obviously accepted the planet was warming but I was unsure of man's role in it. I've come to since think that the evidence does point to man.

The book isn't completely about global warming, though. It's actually really good; a lot of bullshit and myths are destroyed.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I honestly don't see the point of arguing. As weird as it sounds climate change is a personal problem.

The whole reason people deny climate change is because if it is really this massive threat then we ALL have to change our standard of living- in some ways that are real sacrifices- in order to fix that problem. If the solution to climate change could be fixed with something small like an extra 10 cents of tax on gas no one would care, but the whole problem with the climate change "debate" is that you are asking people to admit the way they live is harming the planet. Hence why people deny deny deny.

Actually, that is a step too far. It isn't harming the planet. The earth doesn't care if it gets hotter, it will still exist and lifeforms will adapt. What climate change really does is screw over people, IE poor people that live in places that will be flooded if the ice caps melt.

So at the end of the day the only "point" of having a climate debate is to get people to behave in a way that will make the lives of poor people they never met be better. You can see the obvious problem in that- we all wouldn't be able to tolerate our capitalist economic system without getting very good at ignoring the poor people that get crushed under its invisible boot. Ignoring the crushing climate change does is a cakewalk after seeing those toxic technology dumps in India that people "live" in that capitalism created.

Winning the "debate" over climate change does nothing unless you can convince the person to change their lives, which really is only possible if you have changed your life as an example. I know a guy like that- only drives Teslas, won't use plastic bottles, and reuses everything he can. That guy talks the talk and walks the walk with climate change. The rest of us are posers, and often times people who don't really want to change their lives turn the climate change debate into large corporation bashing, which is so missing the point.

 

[cubby1223]

I think the Earth is warming due to man-made pollution...the facts are all there. However, I have a friend who is a "staunch" Republican and uses Drudge Report as his main source of news. He's a climate change denier, pointing out that every single prediction about climate catastrophe so far has been false.

After doing some research...he's actually right. In the 70's, the media said the Earth was cooling, and they were wrong. In the 80's, the US coasts were supposed to be underwater by now. They were wrong. Same for the 90's and early 00's.

If your weatherman is wrong every time, you won't trust his forecasts. I need something to go on here. I'm in belief that we're unlocking a series of events that will grow larger and larger (meaning there won't be some sudden "Day After Tomorrow" situation that occurs), but it's tough to reason with someone when there's such a spotty past of reliability.

It simply comes down to, does it matter in any way if you convince this one other person to believe the same thing you do?

 

[Imp]

You don't...

It's the same with everything, you can't change most people's minds, especially on the interwebs. I try not to anymore but forget occasionally.

 

[Jeff7]

We do the best we can with the information we have available. It's all we can ever do.

If you're not going to trust science because it's always changing as a result of new information, then you should disregard everything else and rely exclusively on your knowledge that you obtained yourself. (Knowledge which you would obtain through a version of the scientific method anyway.)

Not changing a view as a result of new information is stupidly willful ignorance, and really serves no point.
"Oh...it looks like what I thought I knew yesterday wasn't right. Screw that, I'm just going to believe it for the rest of my life."
Yet in some cases, this is seen as perfectly acceptable, and is even considered to be a virtue.


Could things be better with a warmer world? Maybe.
Thing is, we don't know for sure how it would turn out. It's an immensely complex system. We have a decent idea of what to expect out of it in its current state. We don't know exactly what to expect if it gets warmer.
Life on Earth will surely continue, as will most of humanity. (Assuming we don't exceed some stability threshold that kicks Earth back to an anoxic state.) It just might not be as easy.
Having an arm removed won't necessarily kill you either. It just makes certain aspects of life more difficult, so you typically try to avoid things that remove arms.

 

[nakedfrog]

You could just... not? That's the tack I'd go with.

 

[Sonikku]

The science isn't settled. 3% of scientists disagree.

 

[Crono]

It doesn't matter if climate change is real or what the extent of it is from a practical individual standpoint, because energy and fuel efficiency, wasting less water, and reusing materials whenever possible tends to be a good for the wallet and not just the environment.
And plenty of "deniers" I'm sure would be happy to use solar panels as they get cheaper.

From a political/policy standpoint, don't bother. There are plenty of organizations who gain from being pro or anti climate change regulations or funding. Too hairy and complex to sort that out. If you are staunchly on one side or the other, you aren't likely to convince anyone on the opposite side to switch. It's usually a cemented, practically fundamental belief at this point for most people. Most of the talking heads especially are nearly fanatical.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Not worth arguing with them really, it's like arguing with flat earthers, or people who don't believe in the ISS or any of the space missions that have happened.

The ones in power who don't want to do anything about it don't necessarily not believe, it's just that the things that would have to be done go against their agendas. The biggest thing that needs to happen is reducing or eliminating our reliance on oil for energy. But governments are pretty much in bed with oil companies, we have wars because of oil, so anything that goes against oil is never going to happen.

I'm actually surprised Tesla made it this far with their electric cars TBH. The government is eventually going to shut that down if they feel it's a threat.

 

[Grooveriding]

Can't get through to them. The strategy employed to obfuscate the issue by the big corporations who will be financially impacted by real efforts being made to stop human caused climate change are pretty simple and wise.

They've made it a political ideology issue, rather than the verifiable scientific issue it is. So they can co-opt low information, emotionally reactive individuals by appealing to their political sensibilities. Throw in a few morons of that political slant with snowballs, internet political 'news' blog sites and some junk science and they'll buy in that it's a conspiracy.

So you wind up with these individuals becoming deniers because they are right wing and it's now a left vs right wing issue, which it is nothing of the sort. Really scary to see how much power financial interests have over the government, that you have elected officials denying reality. Then again.... a lot of them believe we spawned from a single man and woman in a garden less than 10,000 years ago.

 

[elitejp]

I think the Earth is warming due to man-made pollution...the facts are all there. However, I have a friend who is a "staunch" Republican and uses Drudge Report as his main source of news. He's a climate change denier, pointing out that every single prediction about climate catastrophe so far has been false.

After doing some research...he's actually right. In the 70's, the media said the Earth was cooling, and they were wrong. In the 80's, the US coasts were supposed to be underwater by now. They were wrong. Same for the 90's and early 00's.

If your weatherman is wrong every time, you won't trust his forecasts. I need something to go on here. I'm in belief that we're unlocking a series of events that will grow larger and larger (meaning there won't be some sudden "Day After Tomorrow" situation that occurs), but it's tough to reason with someone when there's such a spotty past of reliability.

Why even bother arguing for or against climate change. Is your republican, drudge report reading friend against clean air and water? If not then you guys actually agree that there is a problem that needs solving

 

[darkswordsman17]

Can't get through to them. The strategy employed to obfuscate the issue by the big corporations who will be financially impacted by real efforts being made to stop human caused climate change are pretty simple and wise.

They've made it a political ideology issue, rather than the verifiable scientific issue it is. So they can co-opt low information, emotionally reactive individuals by appealing to their political sensibilities. Throw in a few morons of that political slant with snowballs, internet political 'news' blog sites and some junk science and they'll buy in that it's a conspiracy.

So you wind up with these individuals becoming deniers because they are right wing and it's now a left vs right wing issue, which it is nothing of the sort. Really scary to see how much power financial interests have over the government, that you have elected officials denying reality. Then again.... a lot of them believe we spawned from a single man and woman in a garden less than 10,000 years ago.

Its not just the corporations, a lot of governments are dependent on fossil fuel economies (even the US actually is highly dependent on it, to say nothing of Saudi Arabia, Russia, and plenty of others). It does blow my mind when they present a "green conspiracy" by scientists, up against literally the most profitable companies and governments with histories of doing awful shit.

And that's the real failure, is that governments weren't doing something to try and ease transition. Hell, think what they could accomplish if they'd put coal miners and the like that are losing their jobs, to work cleaning up some of these superfund sites. I mean the workers seem fine with horrible conditions doing a job that is very likely to drastically impact their quality and length of life, why not get them to clean up some of these messes. And slap the perpetrators with adequate fines to pay for them so they'll have incentive to not keep doing it over and over and over again.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Why worry about it? How do you convince a person that there is or isn't a god?

The reality is in the next 50 years there isn't a thing your, him, or 1 million other people are going to do to change anything. You can blame humanity as a whole, but you are never going to get 7 billion people to change their ways, let alone the governments / companies of said humanity.

If it bothers you, don't have kids.

Hard lines, hard realities. You're welcome.

 

[Zstream]

Well, I don't think anyone is denying that cars or whatever else produces pollution, but when a few volcanoes have a bad day equal more than all the humans impact the earth, the debate is silly. Additionally, when the western civilized world does more than anyone else it starts to piss people off. You get China, all of Africa and South America to change their ways and we can sit down and talk.