Clean Install not possible with Vista Upgrade Discs

[bigdaddy51]

While the deal with installing Vista over itself with an upgrade disc may work, it may result in a "reduced functionality" error message, a little later, when Vista phones home to revalidate the install,. so if you try this, you may be gambling your upgrade key. An UPGRADE disc is just that ,an upgrade of a previous OS.and NOT a full version. If you want to LEGALLY avoid the BS, buy a full version, either OEM or Retail. The repeated question, can I do a clean install, is just another way of saying can I steal a full copy of Vista for an upgrade price? Don't be surprised when Vistas "Kill Switch" trips to the ON position, and you see "invalid key"

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: bigdaddy51
The repeated question, can I do a clean install, is just another way of saying can I steal a full copy of Vista for an upgrade price?

Piracy ISN'T the only reason that somebody might want to do a clean install. Among several reasons, the TIME to do an install of XP is a problem.

A full clean Vista install is less than 20 minutes. A full XP install can approach an hour. If the client can't find their original XP install CD or their Key, we are talking hours or days of wasted time. If I have to do a re-install for a client, I have to charge them for my time. I really DON'T want the cost of installing Windows to exceed the cost of buying a new computer. I really don't. It's a waste of my time and their money.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a scenario based on circumstances that I FREQUENTLY encounter:

A client owns a Toshiba PC. They installed a Vista Upgrade ($200) on it a few months after Vista came out.

They never had a full XP Install CD, or they lost it. There's a factory COA sticker on the side of the computer that looks authentic and gives them a license for XP Home.

Their PC's hard drive just failed and you replaced it. Now they'd like you to re-install Vista for them.

You say: "Sorry. I can't do a Vista re-install without installing XP first. And you don't have a Toshiba OEM XP Install CD. Microsoft doesn't allow me to use the one that I have. It's considered "aiding Piracy". So, first, you have to obtain a Toshiba Install CD. You'll have to call up Toshiba, order one (if they will even sell it to you, since the PC is out of warranty), and wait until it arrives. That may take two weeks. If you want, I can do it for you, but it will take me about 20 minutes on the phone."

"Once the CD arrives, give me a call and I'll come back and re-install XP. That will take about an hour. Then I'll install Vista. That will take 20 minutes."

They ask: "What is it going to cost for the total re-install?"

You say (embarrassed): "Well, there's the time I spent with you today, looking for your Toshiba XP Install CD. Then there's 20 minutes on the phone with Toshiba. Then I have to come back in two weeks when you get the XP CD. Then it'll be another 1.5 hours for the two installs. That's about $300. Plus $40 for the Toshiba CD."

They say" "Ouch! Two weeks and $340! Sounds like we should just throw away the PC and buy a new Dell!"

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Here's the scenario if you're allowed to do a "clean install" of Vista:

You say: "OK. You have your recent Vista Upgade DVD. You obviously have an XP license, since you have an authentic XP COA sticker on the side of your Toshiba case, and ALL of those Toshibas came with XP pre-installed."

"It will take me about 20 minutes to do a clean install, and I'm out of here."

They say: "Great!"

 

[mithrandir2001]

Another reason to stick with XP for a bit longer! Let time take care of all this Vista nonsense.

 

[Parasitic]

Will Vista Home do a fresh install if you have Windows XP Professional?

 

[bigdaddy51]

REBATE MNGER,I agree with you 100% this upgrade deal never took into consideration that most MAJOR OEMs, such as Dell, HP etc, don't even give thier customers a hard copy of the OS. I have been advising most people talking about new notebooks and such, to make sure they order the hardcopy of thier OS, when the order thier new pc. Another thing that is making this whole upgrade thing a little confusing ,is the terms "clean" and "custom" Lets face it, if you buy an "Upgrade disc", you already have an OS you want to UPGRADE to. Using the disc the right way, you install the upgrade, and just choose"custom install" which moves all the old stuff to a seperate folder, that can be removed later. From a small system builders point of view, it just might be worth the effort, to make an image of the customers pc, after you do the upgrade, For anyone bringing you a broken pc ,with an upgrade disc involved, that you didn't install, it's OEM full version time. Word has it that Vista doesn't check to see if the copy of XP whatever is activated, and they have been able to upgrade an unactivated copy of XP. If that's true, a small systems builder could use any oem disc with the coa on the pc first, and then use the customers upgrade disc to complete the repair. Microsoft has put all us small systems builders/repairers in a hard place once again. By the looks of the Vista oem forums, I'd tell most people to stay put with XP until the dust settles.Lots of My upgrade failed posts over there.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: bigdaddy51
REBATE MNGER,I agree with you 100% this upgrade deal never took into consideration that most MAJOR OEMs....

Well, I agree that the whole OEM licensing thing has turned into a real mess the last two years. And, while your responses certainly make sense, they might not make sense to MICROSOFT. 😱

Whatever the rules truly are, they appear to have just gotten MORE complicated with this new Vista Upgrade policy.

 

[bigdaddy51]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger

Originally posted by: bigdaddy51
REBATE MNGER,I agree with you 100% this upgrade deal never took into consideration that most MAJOR OEMs....

Well, I agree that the whole OEM licensing thing has turned into a real mess the last two years. And, while your responses certainly make sense, they might not make sense to MICROSOFT. 😱

Whatever the rules truly are, they appear to have just gotten MORE complicated with this new Vista Upgrade policy.

you want to hear a real good one? They are linking you to those instructions when asked about a clean install with an upgrade disc over at the oem forum. As far as restoring an oem image with an OEM disc, MS has never denyed me reactivation on a oem pc ,using that scenario. I'm just glad I don't work for the big box stores, who guaranteed a 12 hour turnaround on a Vista upgrade. Musta been real sweet when all those Toshiba notebooks got all screwed up, about halfway thru the upgrade.

 

[VisionxOrb]

Originally posted by: bigdaddy51

Originally posted by: RebateMonger

Originally posted by: bigdaddy51
REBATE MNGER,I agree with you 100% this upgrade deal never took into consideration that most MAJOR OEMs....

Well, I agree that the whole OEM licensing thing has turned into a real mess the last two years. And, while your responses certainly make sense, they might not make sense to MICROSOFT. 😱

Whatever the rules truly are, they appear to have just gotten MORE complicated with this new Vista Upgrade policy.

you want to hear a real good one? They are linking you to those instructions when asked about a clean install with an upgrade disc over at the oem forum. As far as restoring an oem image with an OEM disc, MS has never denyed me reactivation on a oem pc ,using that scenario. I'm just glad I don't work for the big box stores, who guaranteed a 12 hour turnaround on a Vista upgrade. Musta been real sweet when all those Toshiba notebooks got all screwed up, about halfway thru the upgrade.

Are you saying microsoft is linking to those instructions? If so they are basicly athourizing that method which means they cant really go later and deactivate all the people that used this method.

 

[pcgeek11]

REBATE MNGER,I agree with you 100% this upgrade deal never took into consideration that most MAJOR OEMs, such as Dell, HP etc, don't even give thier customers a hard copy of the OS.

Actually I just bought a notebook from Dell about 3 weeks ago and I received the Windows XP media center 2005 DVD to go with it, I didn't pay for it or ask for it. It is not a restore disk or a ghost image. It is a full OEM Install DVD. The same goes for the previous notebook I ordered from Dell about 3.5 years ago. It also had a restore partition that I of course immediately deleted.

pcgeek11

 

[bigdaddy51]

Originally posted by: pcgeek11

REBATE MNGER,I agree with you 100% this upgrade deal never took into consideration that most MAJOR OEMs, such as Dell, HP etc, don't even give thier customers a hard copy of the OS.

Actually I just bought a notebook from Dell about 3 weeks ago and I received the Windows XP media center 2005 DVD to go with it, I didn't pay for it or ask for it. It is not a restore disk or a ghost image. It is a full OEM Install DVD. The same goes for the previous notebook I ordered from Dell about 3.5 years ago. It also had a restore partition that I of course immediately deleted.

pcgeek11

They used to make the software optional. Maybe now, knowing the new Vista rules, they changed thier policy and again, included software so you could upgrade to Vista.

 

[bigdaddy51]

Originally posted by: VisionxOrb

Originally posted by: bigdaddy51

Originally posted by: RebateMonger

Originally posted by: bigdaddy51
REBATE MNGER,I agree with you 100% this upgrade deal never took into consideration that most MAJOR OEMs....

Well, I agree that the whole OEM licensing thing has turned into a real mess the last two years. And, while your responses certainly make sense, they might not make sense to MICROSOFT. 😱

Whatever the rules truly are, they appear to have just gotten MORE complicated with this new Vista Upgrade policy.

you want to hear a real good one? They are linking you to those instructions when asked about a clean install with an upgrade disc over at the oem forum. As far as restoring an oem image with an OEM disc, MS has never denyed me reactivation on a oem pc ,using that scenario. I'm just glad I don't work for the big box stores, who guaranteed a 12 hour turnaround on a Vista upgrade. Musta been real sweet when all those Toshiba notebooks got all screwed up, about halfway thru the upgrade.

Are you saying microsoft is linking to those instructions? If so they are basicly athourizing that method which means they cant really go later and deactivate all the people that used this method.

Not really. MS oem forum is private, and is for MS registered OEM builders only. One post in an MS forum is not necessarily permission to do what the posters say.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: pcgeek11
Actually I just bought a notebook from Dell about 3 weeks ago and I received the Windows XP media center 2005 DVD to go with it, I didn't pay for it or ask for it. It is not a restore disk or a ghost image. It is a full OEM Install DVD. The same goes for the previous notebook I ordered from Dell about 3.5 years ago. It also had a restore partition that I of course immediately deleted.

pcgeek11

Dell has been including OS CDs at no extra cost for a while now. Another reason why I recommend buying from them over HP/Compaq. Furthermore, everybody that I've told to call Dell to get a missing OS CD has gotten them for free from Dell, even though they were out of warranty.

 

[John]

For several years Dell was not including any cd's. You could call in and request them, and in most cases if the pc was within the warranty period they would mail them to you at no cost. Only within the last year or so did they start offering a $10 option during the online configuration to include the OS cd.

 

[RebateMonger]

Yeah, Dell has "seen the light" and has been doing a good job of making it pretty easy to get a "clean" XP Install CD. Hopefully, other major-brand OEMs will follow. The last HP MCE 2005 PC I saw wanted the purchaser to make his/her own system restoration CDs, requiring a couple of hours work and ten (or so) CDs. :Q

And after all that, you wouldn't have a "bare" OS restore disk. You were stuck restoring all the "craplets" that came on the original PC.

 

[luigionlsd]

I've seen some nice responses (as well as intelligent people who know the business, and Vista), but I've got a scenario I'd like to know if it would work. I have OEM discs/COAs for both XP Pro, and 2000 professional, as well as a 20GB hard drive, and a couple of larger SATAs.

1) Install 2000 on IDE 20gb, initiate Vista Ultimate retail upgrade on that 2000 install.
2) Because 2000 requires a clean install of Vista for upgrade purposes, I reboot and it goes and does its thing.
3) Will I be able to choose one of my SATA hard drives to install this on, instead of the 20gb (which obviously isn't big enough)?

I ask because I'd like to just keep the 2000 install on my 20gb, so I can upgrade to Vista at any given time, as well as keeping my XP license valid so I can dual boot between XP and Vista. Basically, I'd like to upgrade Vista using my 2000 license, and leave my XP license in tact. Thanks in advance for whatever advice you have!

 

[srp49ers]

Im wondering if this would work, as well

 

[Musician]

Hi @all!

I just followed the whole item and I can tell you this:
I tried a clean install on my company's notebook and NOTE: used an additional harddrive for my extension bay. While installing the HDD was in the main disk mount of the notebook.
After finishing I stumbled over the now wellknown item "upgrade key" (I'm an action pack owner). I messed around with KMS and WGA and all that stuff and I can tell you more: I could not get this Vista version to work with the KMS stuff. I have another test machine running Vista Business (rearmed once) since I borrowed a MSDN version DVD. To tell you the plain truth, I activated this version on its own VMWARE KMS running in this Vista machine.
So the upgrade DVD is like the XP versions - bundled with certain keys.

Since I got my keys and upgrade DVDs with the action pack subscription I thought to keep everything clean. So I switched HDDs in my notebook and threw in my Recovery XP CD, ran the driver tool disk, ran Vista upgrade DVD and watched. It took a lot more time (except of the XP install) and about 4 or 5 reboots to finish the upgrade. To answer some questions: The Windows.old is for recovering a failed install because you get a boot menu entry to revert.
After finishing the install I activated my Vista and ran the WGA website. YEAH! As it should work.

BUT NOW THE BAD NEWS:
Remember the HDD thing, you know: I switched in the original disk to the original place and the VISTA HDD to the bay (this means to my Vista -CD/DVD because of the bay and +new HDD, the original work HDD) because I use the notebook to select the installs with the F12.
A few minutes before I could write this I installed netmon 3.0 from connect.microsoft and famatech's port scanner to help a friend debugging some network problems and HEY WHAT's THIS: Windows has to be activated!!!
I was quite astonished about this. OK, I'm online let's do it and HEY WHAT's THIS: The product key is already in use.
So I entered another one of my keys although I REALLY did not want to do this. Move over to event log and find some stuff reading slc and so on. Actually I do NOT know what triggered this and I am very curious about it. I found out the 25 points thing. But all together a new disk/another disk may cause 11(!) points.
ASAP I will use my Microsoft Quick Assistance card for this issue.
Finally I wasted one of two of my Vista keys from my subscription for this PC that cannot be changed very much because it is a notebook on the hardware side. This is REALLY embarassing!

Greets

Max
MCSA, Vienna

 

[Damn Dirty Ape]

since 2000 requires a clean install by vista, even the retail upgrade, I think I'm just going to install a basic 2000 system, image it and plop it on the HD when I want to reinstall vista.. that way I can avoid this back and forth stuff.

restoring the 2000 image won't take more than 2-3 minutes for a small install then off I go.

probably would take less time to restore the 2000 image than it would to run vista setup a 2nd time from within vista.

Originally posted by: luigionlsd
I've seen some nice responses (as well as intelligent people who know the business, and Vista), but I've got a scenario I'd like to know if it would work. I have OEM discs/COAs for both XP Pro, and 2000 professional, as well as a 20GB hard drive, and a couple of larger SATAs.

1) Install 2000 on IDE 20gb, initiate Vista Ultimate retail upgrade on that 2000 install.
2) Because 2000 requires a clean install of Vista for upgrade purposes, I reboot and it goes and does its thing.
3) Will I be able to choose one of my SATA hard drives to install this on, instead of the 20gb (which obviously isn't big enough)?

I ask because I'd like to just keep the 2000 install on my 20gb, so I can upgrade to Vista at any given time, as well as keeping my XP license valid so I can dual boot between XP and Vista. Basically, I'd like to upgrade Vista using my 2000 license, and leave my XP license in tact. Thanks in advance for whatever advice you have!

 

[luigionlsd]

What I'm saying is just install 2000 on a 20gb hard drive, and do the vista upgrade sequence. Will I have a choice to install Vista on a DIFFERENT hard drive, or will I be forced to use the HD that 2000 is installed on?

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: luigionlsd
What I'm saying is just install 2000 on a 20gb hard drive, and do the vista upgrade sequence. Will I have a choice to install Vista on a DIFFERENT hard drive, or will I be forced to use the HD that 2000 is installed on?

If you upgrade i think you will be forced to use the same hard drive- but 20 GB is not recommended for Vista because the minimum free space required for vista is 15 GB

 

[luigionlsd]

Will I have a chance to repartition the same hard drive? I.e., I've got a 250gb I'd like to install Vista on, so I'd just install 2000 on that first (and 2000 = no quick format), and do Vista upgrade onto that. I really appreciate all the help you guys are giving.

Edit: Got Vista Ultimate Upgrade::::

I did the update process (w/ clean install) on 2000. Keep in mind it requires SP4 for 2000 to launch the installer. You DO get the choice to install Vista on any drive/partition you want, but it cannot be on the same partition as an XP or 2000 install, which tripped me up for a bit. BTW, it was a pleasant surprise to get the Bill Gates LE of Vista, when all I wanted was the standard upgrade 😀 Go buy it now and you may be lucky!

 

[tcsenter]

I responded that is still not a clean install that he was changing what clean install meant to what he wanted it to mean and I said MS had made a stupid mistake by changing the way upgrade software worked.

Clean install has never meant on a clean (to mean blank or empty) hard drive. Clean install has always meant a new installation that overwrites, replaces, or deletes all existing code (and user data) or newly writes the code to an empty disk, rather than an upgrade which retains existing installed code and user data.

e.g. If I have a current Windows XP installation that gets fubar'd, and I want to re-install Windows, I have two choices:

1. Perform an in-place upgrade (reinstallation) that will retain most of my registry, all of my applications and user data (if all goes right). This can be performed by booting to SETUP with the Windows XP disc, selecting "Setup Windows Now" by pressing Enter (instead of Repair), press F8 to accept the EULA, make sure the current (broken) installation of Windows is highlighted, then press "R" to Repair that installed copy of Windows XP. This will overwrite only select portions of the registry, and will in most cases retain per-user registry entries, preserve my applications, user data, and even user profiles.

2. Perform a clean or fresh install that will overwrite everything, losing all applications, registry entries, user data, and user profiles, whether there is already an OS installed or the drive is blank (doesn't matter, they're both a clean install). This can be performed by booting to SETUP with the Windows XP disc, selecting "Setup Windows Now" by pressing Enter (instead of Repair), press F8 to accept the EULA, then following the instructions to install a FRESH copy of Windows that will completely overwrite the existing installation. I need NOT format the drive or repartition it. SETUP will give me the option of formatting the drive or use the current file system.

A clean install is commonly peformed on a newly formatted (or unformatted) hard drive that contains no prior OS or user data, but it does not implicitly or explicitly mean a blank or newly formatted hard drive that contains no data.

It means that the resulting installation will neither preserve nor contain any remnants of the current installation (if one exists) and lays down an entirely new registry, system files, directory structure, and all that. The installation will be "clean" of all the prior install's problems and dirt, an upgrade will not. Windows XP SETUP will always use the 'Quick Format' method by default when installing using Method #2 unless the 'Full Format' is selected.

this sucks for anyone getting new hardware and installing Vista. I alone can think of two people who have older systems and legal, full versions of Windows XP.

Why? The retail upgrade of Vista (and XP) costs more than the OEM full product. When those people go to buy newer hardware, they can purchase the OEM/DSP version of Vista and do a clean install (for less).

Previously, people could have bought a retail or OEM copy of Windows 98, then buy an upgrade to, say Windows XP. When they bought a second computer, and wanted to stay (generally) on the side of the law, they could go and buy an upgrade version of Windows XP and use the original Windows 98 CD to install XP.

Which is not legal and would violate MS licensing terms on the second and subsequent computers. Ergo, Microsoft took a step to reduce one common method of piracy (getting the upgrade discount but not owning a qualifying FULL product for the PC.

I don't understand why anyone would purchase the upgrade version, anyway. It actually costs more than the full OEM version.

 

[bigdaddy51]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

I responded that is still not a clean install that he was changing what clean install meant to what he wanted it to mean and I said MS had made a stupid mistake by changing the way upgrade software worked.

Clean install has never meant on a clean (to mean blank or empty) hard drive. Clean install has always meant a new installation that overwrites, replaces, or deletes all existing code (and user data) or newly writes the code to an empty disk, rather than an upgrade which retains existing installed code and user data.

e.g. If I have a current Windows XP installation that gets fubar'd, and I want to re-install Windows, I have two choices:

1. Perform an in-place upgrade (reinstallation) that will retain most of my registry, all of my applications and user data (if all goes right). This can be performed by booting to SETUP with the Windows XP disc, selecting "Setup Windows Now" by pressing Enter (instead of Repair), press F8 to accept the EULA, make sure the current (broken) installation of Windows is highlighted, then press "R" to Repair that installed copy of Windows XP. This will overwrite only select portions of the registry, and will in most cases retain per-user registry entries, preserve my applications, user data, and even user profiles.

2. Perform a clean or fresh install that will overwrite everything, losing all applications, registry entries, user data, and user profiles, whether there is already an OS installed or the drive is blank (doesn't matter, they're both a clean install). This can be performed by booting to SETUP with the Windows XP disc, selecting "Setup Windows Now" by pressing Enter (instead of Repair), press F8 to accept the EULA, then following the instructions to install a FRESH copy of Windows that will completely overwrite the existing installation. I need NOT format the drive or repartition it. SETUP will give me the option of formatting the drive or use the current file system.

A clean install is commonly peformed on a newly formatted (or unformatted) hard drive that contains no prior OS or user data, but it does not implicitly or explicitly mean a blank or newly formatted hard drive that contains no data.

It means that the resulting installation will neither preserve nor contain any remnants of the current installation (if one exists) and lays down an entirely new registry, system files, directory structure, and all that. The installation will be "clean" of all the prior install's problems and dirt, an upgrade will not. Windows XP SETUP will always use the 'Quick Format' method by default when installing using Method #2 unless the 'Full Format' is selected.

this sucks for anyone getting new hardware and installing Vista. I alone can think of two people who have older systems and legal, full versions of Windows XP.

Why? The retail upgrade of Vista (and XP) costs more than the OEM full product. When those people go to buy newer hardware, they can purchase the OEM/DSP version of Vista and do a clean install (for less).

Previously, people could have bought a retail or OEM copy of Windows 98, then buy an upgrade to, say Windows XP. When they bought a second computer, and wanted to stay (generally) on the side of the law, they could go and buy an upgrade version of Windows XP and use the original Windows 98 CD to install XP.

Which is not legal and would violate MS licensing terms on the second and subsequent computers. Ergo, Microsoft took a step to reduce one common method of piracy (getting the upgrade discount but not owning a qualifying FULL product for the PC.

I don't understand why anyone would purchase the upgrade version, anyway. It actually costs more than the full OEM version.

I think they think, if they buy a RETAIL upgrade and use it on an OEM copy of XP, they will then have retail rights to transfer that copy of Vista to any pc they want.

 

[GreenGhost]

Originally posted by: GreggyD

Originally posted by: filmore crashcart
This is my work around: Stick with XP for now and be happy.

Best advice yet.

If you're building a brand new computer, it's silly to buy XP. Even if there are some quirks, Vista will be better than XP.

In my office the IT guy ordered new computers with W 2000 because XP was new and similar rumors were around.

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: GreenGhost
If you're building a brand new computer, it's silly to buy XP. Even if there are some quirks, Vista will be better than XP. In my office the IT guy ordered new computers with W 2000 because XP was new and similar rumors were around.

Depends, if its your computer and you don't mind applying major service packs and a hundred hotfixes as they come available, because you tweak and update your computer anyway, then Vista probably makes sense.

If you support lots of computers used by OTHER people, Vista will make sense in about four years...or however long it takes to achieve the same degree of code stability and maturity as XP has now (or W2K achieved 3 ~ 4 years ago).