Clash over doctors asking patients about firearms

[Fear No Evil]

Yes, nowhere did he say that gun ownership is something that you should report to the authorities, just that it's something that could be related to the risk of someone harming themselves, which is indisputably true.

So in that context, my response seems to be valid. Should Doctor's be asking about other things such as smoking, driving habits, and other high risk behaviors? And should they be allowed to refuse treatment if you don't answer?

 

[irishScott]

At least one Doctor is refusing to treat the child based on the 'non-answer'. Is that OK?

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100724/ARTICLES/7241001?tc=ar

Judging from that article he's probably refusing to treat due to the lady being a bitch more-so than the gun question. It's not like you're going on some registry if you say yes either. Dr-patient confidentiality.

Now if she said yes and he then refused to treat, then I'd have a serious issue.

 

[fskimospy]

A doctor, just like anyone in any other profession should be able to decide if they want to provide service to you or not. If a doctor is so stupid as to not want someone as a patient because they didn't answer the question, they have a right to be that stupid, and hopefully they would be exposed as an idiot so patients could steer clear of that idiot.

Not true. Doctors can only practice medicine with a license granted to them by the state. As such, the state can impose reasonable restrictions on what he must do to keep that license. He doesn't have to provide service to you, but he also doesn't have to keep his license... and it's not like these state requirements are a secret or anything.

 

[PokerGuy]

it's something that could be related to the risk of someone harming themselves, which is indisputably true.

... as is the case (even more so!) for driving a car, using a lawnmower, playing basketball and on and on. Why home in on one particular potential safety issue and not countless others, unless it's part of an anti-gun stance?

 

[Fear No Evil]

A doctor, just like anyone in any other profession should be able to decide if they want to provide service to you or not. If a doctor is so stupid as to not want someone as a patient because they didn't answer the question, they have a right to be that stupid, and hopefully they would be exposed as an idiot so patients could steer clear of that idiot.

So a Pharmacist who refused to dispense abortion or birth control pills should be allowed to do so as well? Just wondering if you are being consistent here.

 

[PokerGuy]

Not true. Doctors can only practice medicine with a license granted to them by the state. As such, the state can impose reasonable restrictions on what he must do to keep that license. He doesn't have to provide service to you, but he also doesn't have to keep his license... and it's not like these state requirements are a secret or anything.

I know, I wasn't saying they can, I was stating my opinion that they should be allowed to just like any other profession. I should have been more clear.

 

[fskimospy]

... as is the case (even more so!) for driving a car, using a lawnmower, playing basketball and on and on. Why home in on one particular potential safety issue and not countless others, unless it's part of an anti-gun stance?

Where did you get the idea that guns are the only thing the doctors give safety tips on?

You're closer to the answer than you think though, why are people flipping out about safety tips on guns and not countless others?

 

[Fear No Evil]

Judging from that article he's probably refusing to treat due to the lady being a bitch more-so than the gun question. It's not like you're going on some registry if you say yes either. Dr-patient confidentiality.

Now if she said yes and he then refused to treat, then I'd have a serious issue.

So on one hand we have people in this thread saying the patients can just refuse to answer, and on the other we have people like yourself saying people who refuse to do so are 'bitches'. 🙄

 

[fskimospy]

So in that context, my response seems to be valid. Should Doctor's be asking about other things such as smoking, driving habits, and other high risk behaviors? And should they be allowed to refuse treatment if you don't answer?

Yes, doctors should be asking questions about high risk behaviors and offering advice on how to mitigate them.

A doctor can refuse treatment to whoever he wants, but the consequences of that refusal can and should be the potential loss of his or her license. (unless he has a very good reason)

 

[PokerGuy]

So a Pharmacist who refused to dispense abortion or birth control pills should be allowed to do so as well? Just wondering if you are being consistent here.

That's not the same issue. A doctors job is not to provide service to anyone whether they want to or not, it's to provide a medical service to patients. A pharmacist's job is to dispense medications as prescribed, I don't think it's appropriate for them to pick and choose which part of their job they're going to do or not do.

 

[irishScott]

So on one hand we have people in this thread saying the patients can just refuse to answer, and on the other we have people like yourself saying people who refuse to do so are 'bitches'. 🙄

She isn't a bitch because she refused to answer, she's a bitch because she acted like one during said refusal, according to that article anyway.

This is a non-issue to me. I detect no anti-gun effort or infringement of the 2nd amendment. And frankly if some bum on the street asked me if I had guns I'd proudly say yes, let alone my Dr where I'm legally covered by confidentiality.

 

[Fear No Evil]

That's not the same issue. A doctors job is not to provide service to anyone whether they want to or not, it's to provide a medical service to patients. A pharmacist's job is to dispense medications as prescribed, I don't think it's appropriate for them to pick and choose which part of their job they're going to do or not do.

You need to make up your mind:

I know, I wasn't saying they can, I was stating my opinion that they should be allowed to just like any other profession.

So which is it? Are you suggesting Pharmacists aren't professionals?

 

[Fear No Evil]

She isn't a bitch because she refused to answer, she's a bitch because she acted like one during said refusal, according to that article anyway.

This is a non-issue to me. I detect no anti-gun effort or infringement of the 2nd amendment. And frankly if some bum on the street asked me if I had guns I'd proudly say yes, let alone my Dr where I'm legally covered by confidentiality.

Gotcha. Doctor's should be allowed to refuse treatment to bitches. Perhaps we could get a legal definition of 'bitch'? Is it anyone who disagrees with your views or refuses to answer your questions? 🙄

 

[PokerGuy]

Where did you get the idea that guns are the only thing the doctors give safety tips on?

They shouldn't be giving any, as they have no more expertise on that subject than anyone else, and you are not going to the doctor for safety tips, you are going for medical expertise / service.

You're closer to the answer than you think though, why are people flipping out about safety tips on guns and not countless others?

I see your point, it's more of an issue because it's a sensitive topic for many (on either side of the debate). It's clear though (as FNE's link shows) that at least for some doctors it's part of their anti-gun zealotry.

 

[irishScott]

You need to make up your mind:



So which is it? Are you suggesting Pharmacists aren't professionals?

You know he's not. Stop trolling.

 

[thraashman]

At least one Doctor is refusing to treat the child based on the 'non-answer'. Is that OK?

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100724/ARTICLES/7241001?tc=ar

The doctor has never refused treatment for any patients who say they do own guns. He only refused to continue treating a patient at any further dates because the parent refused to cooperate and got aggressive towards him (snapping at someone is aggressive verbally). Had she refused agressively to answer any other questions, and he refused to treat her, then gun nuts would never have heard of this. It's a doctor's perogative to determine if a healthy doctor/patient relationship is not possible and that the patient should seek other medical options.

 

[irishScott]

Gotcha. Doctor's should be allowed to refuse treatment to bitches. Perhaps we could get a legal definition of 'bitch'? Is it anyone who disagrees with your views or refuses to answer your questions? 🙄

Yeah, how about you go educate yourself and get back to us when you cool down k?

 

[PokerGuy]

So which is it? Are you suggesting Pharmacists aren't professionals?

Each profession has different requirements. I'm saying you can be a good doctor and chose not to want to provide service to a patient, but you can't be a pharmacist if you won't dispense medications as prescribed. That's their job.

It's OK for a retail store to say "no shirt, no service", but it's not OK for the fire department to say "no shirt, we're not putting out the fire". Different jobs, different requirements.

 

[PokerGuy]

It's a doctor's perogative to determine if a healthy doctor/patient relationship is not possible and that the patient should seek other medical options.

Agreed. Both the doctor and the patient should be able to decide if the relationship is right for them or not. As eskimo pointed out, there are obviously restrictions to that as part of licensing and anti-discrimination laws and such, but the gist of it is the relationship has to work for both parties to make sense.

 

[fskimospy]

They shouldn't be giving any, as they have no more expertise on that subject than anyone else, and you are not going to the doctor for safety tips, you are going for medical expertise / service.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I believe that a doctor can and should provide advice to mitigate high risk behavior by his patients as part of a balanced approach to their overall well being.

I see your point, it's more of an issue because it's a sensitive topic for many (on either side of the debate). It's clear though (as FNE's link shows) that at least for some doctors it's part of their anti-gun zealotry.

I'm sure there are some doctors out there who hate guns, and depending on their experience I can understand why. I'm sure after a certain number of gunshot cases you probably develop a dislike of guns. That being said, anti-gun zealotry is not a good reason to be asking your patients that question. I do believe that ensuring that patients are keeping firearms out of the reach of children IS a good reason to ask that question however, and so even if they are asking the question for the wrong reasons, it's still a good question to ask.

 

[Fear No Evil]

The doctor has never refused treatment for any patients who say they do own guns. He only refused to continue treating a patient at any further dates because the parent refused to cooperate and got aggressive towards him (snapping at someone is aggressive verbally). Had she refused agressively to answer any other questions, and he refused to treat her, then gun nuts would never have heard of this. It's a doctor's perogative to determine if a healthy doctor/patient relationship is not possible and that the patient should seek other medical options.

There is no indication from the article that the patient was abusive or aggressive in any way or that she acted in ANY way inappropriately. Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise or are you just making facts up?

 

[lothar]

Each profession has different requirements. I'm saying you can be a good doctor and chose not to want to provide service to a patient, but you can't be a pharmacist if you won't dispense medications as prescribed. That's their job.

It's OK for a retail store to say "no shirt, no service", but it's not OK for the fire department to say "no shirt, we're not putting out the fire". Different jobs, different requirements.

That's a moronic statement.
At least 80%(if not more) of the medications I dispense in my department are not dispensed as prescribed.

 

[PokerGuy]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I believe that a doctor can and should provide advice to mitigate high risk behavior by his patients as part of a balanced approach to their overall well being.

What makes a doctor qualified to provide advice on anything other than medical issues? Driving a car is probably the most dangerous activity any of us undertake on a regular basis. What makes your doctor qualified to provide advice on safe driving? It's absurd to think that a doctor is qualified to give any opinion or advice on gun storage or ownership. As such, why ask the question if you are not qualified to do anything with the answer?

I do believe that ensuring that patients are keeping firearms out of the reach of children IS a good reason to ask that question however, and so even if they are asking the question for the wrong reasons, it's still a good question to ask.

Why is it a good question to ask if the doctor is not qualified to provide any useful information in response?

 

[PokerGuy]

That's a moronic statement.
At least 80%(if not more) of the medications I dispense in my department are not dispensed as prescribed.

Really? You just dispense whatever you like, regardless of what was prescribed? Or, do you mean, you substitute acceptable generics. If that's the case you are dispensing as prescribed because doctors in most states have to specify whether generic alternatives are OK or not.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Each profession has different requirements. I'm saying you can be a good doctor and chose not to want to provide service to a patient, but you can't be a pharmacist if you won't dispense medications as prescribed. That's their job.

It's OK for a retail store to say "no shirt, no service", but it's not OK for the fire department to say "no shirt, we're not putting out the fire". Different jobs, different requirements.

You need to be more careful about what you say then, because you said:

I know, I wasn't saying they can, I was stating my opinion that they should be allowed to just like any other profession.

Now you are qualifying your statement. As a Doctor you take a oath to protect the health of your patients. I don't have a problem with them asking, but if they refuse to treat a patient based on the answer or lack there of, thats a violation of their duties. I'd go so far to say that this Doctor is actually violating quite a few of the principles stated in the Hippocratic Oath.

I do think this law is going too far, but I understand why its trying to be enacted. This Doctor overstepped his bounds and his oath and FL is trying to protect its citizens from this abuse. I think it should have been handled through other means though.