Civil war in Iraq "Likely"

[The Green Bean]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/03/iraq.hearing/index.html

Bush should be tried for war crimes. Iraq has NEVER been able to leave in peace for more than 1500 years. Bush and his illegal war has now claimed the lives of thousands. Atleast Saddam could ensure security. If the most powerful country in the world can not establish peace, Im afraid no one can.

I feel there is only one solution now that Bush and Blair have taken the ME into a new hell. The "Democratic" government should be disposed and American rule should be established until a new army can be recruited to take over. The government needs to be powerful enough to stop massacres like those happening daily. And if it really does turn into a a full scale civil war, we will have to welcome Afghanistan II. Im very critical of US foreign policy but now that they have made a mistake, they should admit it, take the blame and work for the people of Iraq. When the British empire weakened, they did not leave without having formed strong governments and armies to avoid civil war especially in the sub continent. Obviously there is a power vaccum that needs to be filled and there is no one better to do it that the most poweful country in the world. If I were a Iraqi, I'd care more about my childrens' security than about living under an imperialist. Things under the British empire were much better than today's Afghanistan and Iraq.

The cost?

Time: a decade at the least
American lives: 5000-10000 more
Cost in $ - a few trillion (Including rebuilding)

Atleast that way, we may see real peace in Iraq after 10 years and negotiations in the future would be made by words and not bullets. America's image would diminish and it may lose its status of "superpower" to China. A sad price Iraq and America have to pay for Bush's stupidity. But human lives are more important that "democracy"

Otherwise the ME may well turn into a new Africa with civil war in Iraq and Israeli aggression causing chaos. The world economy would collapse without a steady supply of oil.

 

[tommywishbone]

Herr bushler is laughing at those dead people.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: tommywishbone
Herr bushler is laughing at those dead people.

Care to show tape to back up your slander?

One can be a fool without being malevolent.

 

[magomago]

Fools should be taken out of power once their foolishness is exposed...else we are the fools for letting him continue the abilit to wield powe

 

[Lemon law]

Herr Busho and his fellow idiots went into Iraq with an overoptimistic and morally bankrupt plan ---which can be summed up in two parts---(1) We would be greeted with flowers and candy (2) Chalibi would be presented to the Iraqie people and would become the instant concenus choice.---when they went Chala who--the jig was up. As we can see---neither happened----and now 3.5 years later GWB&co. have failed to even develop a plan B. And now its apparent to all that Bush only hopes to hang on hoping things will get better---while things get worse.----much worse--and now we finally get some honest generals telling us the outbreak of a civil war is upon us.---as the entire middle-east crumbles around us also---at a moment when Busho has made us even more isolated over his too one sided blank check to Israel.

The only debate left is the following question----------should Bush be removed from office ASAP as both incompetent and an unconstitutional abuser of power--and be sent home packing---or should he be impeached ASAP and be sent to the Hague to be tried for war crimes?---maybe a mental competency test is warranted?

Well, face the facts---Bush bet his Presidency on the Iraq war---which he has totally bungled---do we collect the forfeit on the debt now or do we wait for our position in Iraq to become a panic withdrawal---so do we now remove Bush--- now or later---if you are in the later camp---on your head is the future damage that idiot does to the USA.---2008 is far too late.

 

[her209]

Don't forget how the Iraqis were supposed to pay for the reconstruction with monies from oil revenue.

 

[Zebo]

Calling it Bush's fault is an oversimplifiation. The Sunni Shi'a sectarian split and fighting as a result of it has gone back 1300 years virtually non stop. They willl probably never stop fighting as the Sunni will never surrender thier political and economic power to the Shi'a, whom they consider heretics, not muslims at all. You also have a strain of Arab supremecism Iraq Sunni are indioctrnated with. ("Arabs are the most noble in Deeds") Bush was foolish for the invasion but it was still salvagable form a stategic standpoint even 6 months after the invasion, where the violence was low if at all, by arming to the teeth the Shi'a and Kurdish populations to equal the balance and immdiately leaving. Now its a total cluster fusk we can't withdraw from after breaking Iraq down for three years combined with the resentment that has resulted from the ocupation. We can't withdraw for political reasons, pride and the iraqis will scream bloody murder if we try. Shia, until they have enough military power to annihilate the Sunni, will Scream "you broke things, you must stay and fix them" Sunni, the day they learn of our planned withdraw will scream "you can't leave, we will get slaughtered And so it goes a welfare and bloody tarbaby perhaps forever stuck to.

 

[LunarRay]

Zebo,
No one can undo what seems genetic imprinting of thousands of years to be what each of the people in Iraq and other Persian or Arab nations are or how they believe. We need to leave and recognize this and when all is said an done deal with what is left. All we do it seems is try to teach a buffalo to fly and that don't do anything but frustrate us and tick off the buffalo. Heck... we even try to convince the buffalo it is a camel or elephant.. it ain't either and sure as heck ain't an eagle.

 

[Moonbeam]

There will be no civil war in Iraq. The Iraqis are intermarried and well integrated as a sectarian people. America will create for Iraq a new Golden Age.

 

[Zebo]

There's nothing genetic about it any more than all Germans were born Nazi's. The big differnece is we banned one upon conquer and not the other today, continually failing to recognise the precepts of the belief-system which causes such hate.

 

[LunarRay]

Yes.. the Golden Age... right!
We, the US, are simply in the way of their eventuality. Best we let them be them... we'd demand no less for ourselves..

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Zebo
There's nothing genetic about it any more than all Germans were born Nazi's. The big differnece is we banned one upon conquer and not the other today, continually failing to recognise the precepts of the belief-system which causes such hate.

Not all Iraqi are of the same belief.... nor were the Germans... ("... what seems ..." means not that it is - in my mind anyhow) but they have grown to that belief because one deems the other a heretic or worse. I suppose Irish Catholic and Protestant can learn to live together but in this case I think belief is a tad bit more important than for the Irish.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Yes.. the Golden Age... right!
We, the US, are simply in the way of their eventuality. Best we let them be them... we'd demand no less for ourselves..

We can't leave now. Have to stay the course. There is a destructive element that needs to be put down. But have no fear. There will be a Golden Age. It takes some time getting used to being free.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Yes.. the Golden Age... right!
We, the US, are simply in the way of their eventuality. Best we let them be them... we'd demand no less for ourselves..

We can't leave now. Have to stay the course. There is a destructive element that needs to be put down. But have no fear. There will be a Golden Age. It takes some time getting used to being free.

Which is the destructive element when both or all are destructive toward each other? Freedom to some is essential to life but to others Freedom is the lure of satin. In this 'war' no matter where one points their gun it is aimed at ourselves.. just don't pull the trigger..

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Zebo
There's nothing genetic about it any more than all Germans were born Nazi's. The big differnece is we banned one upon conquer and not the other today, continually failing to recognise the precepts of the belief-system which causes such hate.

Not all Iraqi are of the same belief.... nor were the Germans... ("... what seems ..." means not that it is - in my mind anyhow) but they have grown to that belief because one deems the other a heretic or worse. I suppose Irish Catholic and Protestant can learn to live together but in this case I think belief is a tad bit more important than for the Irish.

I never said they are all the same belief but until the free world cast off this ridiculous castened subservience study of Islam and in popular discourse all the instruments of Jihad will remain in place forever..and that's deadly. Just as much a leaving nazism a viable party after WWII would have been. Than god we wernt infected by the multiculturalist ethos that prevails everywhere today and buried it. No instead we must point out the depredations in islam and force full equality of rights for women and non-Muslims in Islamic societies, freedom of conscience, equality in laws regarding legal testimony, no more beheadings etc etc etc if our ideals are to "win" the other choice is lose all that we know.

 

[LunarRay]

We can't make them be like us and live like us cuz they ain't like us. They live by the word of God as they believe it to be (IMO). They are only temporary on earth with all of eternity ahead of them. IF that is really what they believe I can understand why they loathe the West. The most powerful force on Earth is still on Earth.. their objective is elsewhere and IF that is true then no amount of force can alter that thinking and certainly no other persuasive means can either..

IMO

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Yes.. the Golden Age... right!
We, the US, are simply in the way of their eventuality. Best we let them be them... we'd demand no less for ourselves..

We can't leave now. Have to stay the course. There is a destructive element that needs to be put down. But have no fear. There will be a Golden Age. It takes some time getting used to being free.

Which is the destructive element when both or all are destructive toward each other? Freedom to some is essential to life but to others Freedom is the lure of satin. In this 'war' no matter where one points their gun it is aimed at ourselves.. just don't pull the trigger..

Inside every Iraqi is an American yearning to be free. We are all one.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There will be no civil war in Iraq. The Iraqis are intermarried and well integrated as a sectarian people. America will create for Iraq a new Golden Age.

I doubt that a bunch of monekys can turn it into a golden age when so many great leaders have failed.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Yes.. the Golden Age... right!
We, the US, are simply in the way of their eventuality. Best we let them be them... we'd demand no less for ourselves..

We can't leave now. Have to stay the course. There is a destructive element that needs to be put down. But have no fear. There will be a Golden Age. It takes some time getting used to being free.

Which is the destructive element when both or all are destructive toward each other? Freedom to some is essential to life but to others Freedom is the lure of satin. In this 'war' no matter where one points their gun it is aimed at ourselves.. just don't pull the trigger..

For every Iraqi death, there is an American waiting to fill his oil tanks.

fixed

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Calling it Bush's fault is an oversimplifiation. The Sunni Shi'a sectarian split and fighting as a result of it has gone back 1300 years virtually non stop. They willl probably never stop fighting as the Sunni will never surrender thier political and economic power to the Shi'a, whom they consider heretics, not muslims at all. You also have a strain of Arab supremecism Iraq Sunni are indioctrnated with. ("Arabs are the most noble in Deeds") Bush was foolish for the invasion but it was still salvagable form a stategic standpoint even 6 months after the invasion, where the violence was low if at all, by arming to the teeth the Shi'a and Kurdish populations to equal the balance and immdiately leaving. Now its a total cluster fusk we can't withdraw from after breaking Iraq down for three years combined with the resentment that has resulted from the ocupation. We can't withdraw for political reasons, pride and the iraqis will scream bloody murder if we try. Shia, until they have enough military power to annihilate the Sunni, will Scream "you broke things, you must stay and fix them" Sunni, the day they learn of our planned withdraw will scream "you can't leave, we will get slaughtered And so it goes a welfare and bloody tarbaby perhaps forever stuck to.

So how is that not Bush's fault? Yes, Iraq was a screwed up situation long before we got there, but Bush did decide to invade...and he did decide to not do what was necessary to win in the first 6 months of the war, pointedly ignoring the advice of military experts he should have been listening to.

 

[fallenangel99]

I hope they go into civil war/all-out-war. Then only will the Bush administration really open their eyes and do something about it - if something can even be done about it at that point. Oh, and we get to look like real dumba@ses in the world.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Yes.. the Golden Age... right!
We, the US, are simply in the way of their eventuality. Best we let them be them... we'd demand no less for ourselves..

We can't leave now. Have to stay the course. There is a destructive element that needs to be put down. But have no fear. There will be a Golden Age. It takes some time getting used to being free.

Which is the destructive element when both or all are destructive toward each other? Freedom to some is essential to life but to others Freedom is the lure of satin. In this 'war' no matter where one points their gun it is aimed at ourselves.. just don't pull the trigger..

Inside every Iraqi is an American yearning to be free. We are all one.

Keep trying . . . unfortunately Bush/Faux have made sarcasm obsolete. The people can no longer grasp the concept.

 

[ericlp]

Who cares about IRAQ...

We have brand NEW wars that we can kill WAY more people and it's more entertaining....

I'll buy the popcorn!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Zebo
Calling it Bush's fault is an oversimplifiation. The Sunni Shi'a sectarian split and fighting as a result of it has gone back 1300 years virtually non stop. They willl probably never stop fighting as the Sunni will never surrender thier political and economic power to the Shi'a, whom they consider heretics, not muslims at all. You also have a strain of Arab supremecism Iraq Sunni are indioctrnated with. ("Arabs are the most noble in Deeds") Bush was foolish for the invasion but it was still salvagable form a stategic standpoint even 6 months after the invasion, where the violence was low if at all, by arming to the teeth the Shi'a and Kurdish populations to equal the balance and immdiately leaving. Now its a total cluster fusk we can't withdraw from after breaking Iraq down for three years combined with the resentment that has resulted from the ocupation. We can't withdraw for political reasons, pride and the iraqis will scream bloody murder if we try. Shia, until they have enough military power to annihilate the Sunni, will Scream "you broke things, you must stay and fix them" Sunni, the day they learn of our planned withdraw will scream "you can't leave, we will get slaughtered And so it goes a welfare and bloody tarbaby perhaps forever stuck to.

So how is that not Bush's fault? Yes, Iraq was a screwed up situation long before we got there, but Bush did decide to invade...and he did decide to not do what was necessary to win in the first 6 months of the war, pointedly ignoring the advice of military experts he should have been listening to.

The civil war is not Bush's fault because it could not have been prevented by anything done, or not done, by the Americans. It reflection of many things I eluded to. Age old hatred and distrust that goes back to the first century of Islam.. Demograhics imbalance the Sunni was not prepared to accept, e.g. when Saddam took power Shi'a was only 35% now it's 65%. Payback for 30 years of persecution and murder of Shi?a by Saddam Hussein?s Sunni-officered army. All of this has to be kept firmly in mind, lest one succumb to the temptation to believe that ?the Americans caused it? or "Bush's fault".


Bush has fault alright. Ignorance and folly to get our boys killed and our coffers drained for a pipe dream of "democracy" and all manner of things would be well if he went in. AKA cultural reativism - Bush, neocons and liberals alike engage in, in which they just can not believe that the Iraqis will not behave just like Kansans. He's an idiot for poo pooing those who told him it would turn into a maelstrom... etc.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Zebo
Calling it Bush's fault is an oversimplifiation. The Sunni Shi'a sectarian split and fighting as a result of it has gone back 1300 years virtually non stop. They willl probably never stop fighting as the Sunni will never surrender thier political and economic power to the Shi'a, whom they consider heretics, not muslims at all. You also have a strain of Arab supremecism Iraq Sunni are indioctrnated with. ("Arabs are the most noble in Deeds") Bush was foolish for the invasion but it was still salvagable form a stategic standpoint even 6 months after the invasion, where the violence was low if at all, by arming to the teeth the Shi'a and Kurdish populations to equal the balance and immdiately leaving. Now its a total cluster fusk we can't withdraw from after breaking Iraq down for three years combined with the resentment that has resulted from the ocupation. We can't withdraw for political reasons, pride and the iraqis will scream bloody murder if we try. Shia, until they have enough military power to annihilate the Sunni, will Scream "you broke things, you must stay and fix them" Sunni, the day they learn of our planned withdraw will scream "you can't leave, we will get slaughtered And so it goes a welfare and bloody tarbaby perhaps forever stuck to.

So how is that not Bush's fault? Yes, Iraq was a screwed up situation long before we got there, but Bush did decide to invade...and he did decide to not do what was necessary to win in the first 6 months of the war, pointedly ignoring the advice of military experts he should have been listening to.

The civil war is not Bush's fault because it could not have been prevented by anything done, or not done, by the Americans. It reflection of many things I eluded to. Age old hatred and distrust that goes back to the first century of Islam.. Demograhics imbalance the Sunni was not prepared to accept, e.g. when Saddam took power Shi'a was only 35% now it's 65%. Payback for 30 years of persecution and murder of Shi?a by Saddam Hussein?s Sunni-officered army. All of this has to be kept firmly in mind, lest one succumb to the temptation to believe that ?the Americans caused it? or "Bush's fault".


Bush has fault alright. Ignorance and folly to get our boys killed and our coffers drained for a pipe dream of "democracy" and all manner of things would be well if he went in. AKA cultural reativism - Bush, neocons and liberals alike engage in, in which they just can not believe that the Iraqis will not behave just like Kansans. He's an idiot for poo pooing those who told him it would turn into a maelstrom... etc.

You project onto the Iraqis what you feel about yourself. You won't let go of your own hate so you see in them that trait. You don't believe they will ever live in peace because you won't either. You are the enemy of peace because you know that to have peace you must die, you sickness that is your ego, that is. To die you have to go up on the cross and suffer and while you're being tortured to death, forgive. It will help to know, first, I think, that all your opinions and thoughts are nothing.