Citizenship Reform Act - coming this Feb. (link updated)

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I hope it never passes (doubt it would anyways). If you are born here, you are an American. We don't need European-style citizenship laws.

Also, I don't think that the illegal immigrant parents of an American child should be deported. I think that a child should have the right to have his or her parents here.

Well then we should do what Mexico does with its southern boarder. Illegal aliens to Mexico langish in mexican jails for years and sometimes decades. Its time to put some teeth into our immigration laws.

 

[IronWing]

Here comes national ID card, national fingerprint/footprint database of all citizens, national DNA database, endless paternity/maternity battles, and all the other crap that would be required to implement this bad idea. And in the end, when all the money is spent, and DHS has you in their files, the border would still be porous and folks would still cross as they have always done, doing the jobs they've always done.

Want to stop it? Encourage the Mexicans to finish the Mexican revolution and stop supporting bad economic systems in the rest of Latin America.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I hope it never passes (doubt it would anyways). If you are born here, you are an American. We don't need European-style citizenship laws.

Also, I don't think that the illegal immigrant parents of an American child should be deported. I think that a child should have the right to have his or her parents here.

Well then we should do what Mexico does with its southern boarder. Illegal aliens to Mexico langish in mexican jails for years and sometimes decades. Its time to put some teeth into our immigration laws.

Except for all those folks from south of Mexico who pass right on through to the US. I suspect the only folks who end up in Mexican jails are those who failed to pay the mordida.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I hope it never passes (doubt it would anyways). If you are born here, you are an American. We don't need European-style citizenship laws.

Also, I don't think that the illegal immigrant parents of an American child should be deported. I think that a child should have the right to have his or her parents here.

Well then we should do what Mexico does with its southern boarder. Illegal aliens to Mexico langish in mexican jails for years and sometimes decades. Its time to put some teeth into our immigration laws.

Why?

Seriously, I'm all for xenophobic immigration enforcement as much as the next guy...but can someone offer me a reason to get all worked up about illegal immigrants? Obviously unchecked illegal immigration poses a concern that should be dealt with, but people are acting as if each illegal immigrant is smuggling in his own personal nuclear weapon. I want to give people a chance, and I honestly can't believe all the concern is racially related...but the size of the hissy fit everyone is throwing seems all out of proportion to the "danger" posed by illegal immigrants.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: techs
HaHa. Just Republican propaganda. Submit a bill you know is un-constitutional to try and make people forget your years and years of failure to protect the borders.

Clinton sure did a bang up job on the border control didnt he....

The border issue has been going on for a LOOONG time. Its good to see you care enough about the actual problems in this country to try to work to fix the problem rather then just turning it into a Left/Right issue.

Errr........

At least Clinton went after employers who hired illegals. Bush has virtually stopped all prosecutions.

Oh, stop posting facts and stop defending the Mighty Clenis!! I mean, Bush has only had 6 years to do something about it. It's obvious it's still Clinton's fault!

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: OrByte
This act is garbage.

Goes to show what the author(s) of this act think of our country. Why do they hate America so much?

Heaven forbid we think this is our country, for our people and not for the rest of the world to plunder. They will not stop coming in at 1.5 million (1 million legal, 0.5 million illegal) every year until we finish turning third world with extreme measures of poverty and humanitarian crisis.

To sustain such population growth, on its own is suicide, but these are not Americans who are becoming the new demographic majority of this country. These immigrants, who will number 1/3rd of this country by the time we grow old, are not being assimilated. They're forming their own separate communities.

You see it already. Go to southern California, where I?ve come from, where the exodus of Americans continue to flee the sinking ship. So goes California, so goes the entire country.

 

[JEDIYoda]

As I told the DA who was prosecuting a case that nI was selected to do jury duty for....
Just because its a law doesn`t mean its a good law!!
Needless to say I didn`t have to serve jury duty!!

We need to change or amewnd the 14th amendment!!
Also at that time it was written with the people who were immigrating legally in mind!!!

 

[Zorba]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: OrByte
This act is garbage.

Goes to show what the author(s) of this act think of our country. Why do they hate America so much?

Heaven forbid we think this is our country, for our people and not for the rest of the world to plunder. They will not stop coming in at 1.5 million (1 million legal, 0.5 million illegal) every year until we finish turning third world with extreme measures of poverty and humanitarian crisis.

To sustain such population growth, on its own is suicide, but these are not Americans who are becoming the new demographic majority of this country. These immigrants, who will number 1/3rd of this country by the time we grow old, are not being assimilated. They're forming their own separate communities.

You see it already. Go to southern California, where I?ve come from, where the exodus of Americans continue to flee the sinking ship. So goes California, so goes the entire country.

Samething has happened in parts of Oklahoma. A fairly nice part of Tulsa 15 years ago is now a complete dump and its scary to go through there at night. It drives me crazy how many illegals *seem* like they don't want to be assimilated, like they want the US to be Northern Mexico. I just don't understand if they love Mexico so much more than America why they come here to begin with.

The 14th is very clear, as it should be, about this, so this law is complete BS. I don't think it would have much of an effect anyways, though. We need to start fining the hell out of employers and refusing to provide social services to illegals.

 

[DVK916]

So much racism in this thread, very disturbing. These children are U.S citizens, and this bill can't change this. It is part of our constitution, and would require an amendment to change, further more it shouldn't be changed. These children have every right to be here, and every right to citizenship, they are Americans. People who call them anchor babies are sick racist, who are probably in th KKK.

 

[babylon5]

Can anyone name all the other racist country that don't give automatic citizenship?

Any country that does not automatically grant citizenship to whoever born there must be racist, there is no other way to put it. How can any country not let anyone have citizenship? What kind of world are we living in?

Perhaps American should invade any country that oppress people by not granting automatic citizenship and free the illegals there. Who's first?

😀

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: Genx87
I like the bill but dont see how it gets past the courts. They should istead focus on passing a constituational amendment to clarify the 14th.

One of the intents of this proposition would be to do just that. If they can get civil rights and immigrant rights groups to challenge and sue, then the case can be heard in the Supreme Court. If nobody challenges it, I guess it just passes?

That doesn't make any sense. The bill isn't a 'clarification' of the 14th Amendment. If the goal is to change citizenship criteria then you have to pass a constitutional amendment to that extent. The moment this sorry excuse for legislation passes (won't happen in a Democratic Congress . . . even nimrod and chief wouldn't sign it) every federal judge in the district would step in to stop such an abomination.

It sure seems like an effort to get clarification. If you recall this was recently done regarding eminent domain, which was so "clarified" as to be unlike ever interpreted before.

I doubt civil rights and/or immigrant rights groups can take it to court. They would lack "standing" I believe. They could, however, finance a suit for any US born child of an illegal immigrant who was denied citizenship.

I hope it passes and gets to the SCOTUS. I think it could be an interesting case.

Fern

If by "interesting", you mean "over in 5 minutes", then yes, yes it would be interesting.

Look, I realize there is some sort of mortal fear people have of immigrants (hey, you have to mortally fear SOMETHING, right?), but there is NO wiggle room in the 14th amendment. It specifically says you can't "reform citizenship" that way...end of story. Sorry, but thanks for playing.

By "interesting" I mean the usual process the court goes through - A history of the amendment, the intent expressed at the time, and any cases which provide precedent. I enjoy reading cases in my line of work. The Justices typically do a good job of explaining the law and I usually find it interesting.

The "over in 5 minutes" is quite likely to occur, but that would mean they'd refuse to hear it (no grant certiori (sp?)). It could die at teh lower court level then.

Fern

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Zorba
Samething has happened in parts of Oklahoma. A fairly nice part of Tulsa 15 years ago is now a complete dump and its scary to go through there at night. It drives me crazy how many illegals *seem* like they don't want to be assimilated, like they want the US to be Northern Mexico. I just don't understand if they love Mexico so much more than America why they come here to begin with.

It has been happening all over the Country in earnest the last seven years to the point real Americans are fed up with it.

Unfortunately they are the majority now so this is the new America as rebuilt by Republicans. Congrats

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: DVK916
So much racism in this thread, very disturbing. These children are U.S citizens, and this bill can't change this. It is part of our constitution, and would require an amendment to change, further more it shouldn't be changed. These children have every right to be here, and every right to citizenship, they are Americans. People who call them anchor babies are sick racist, who are probably in th KKK.

Wow, talk about a broad and sweeping generalization. You assume a lot.

This is not about people of non-caucasian persuasion. It is about illegal immigrants coming into this country, scrogging a few times, having a kid or 2 at taxpayers expense then getting all the benefits of this country.


I don't care who you are or where you come from, Mexican, Canadian, Japanese, Korean, Polish, UK or Irish etc.

YOU are the one looking down a narrow tube because you hear the words illegal immigrant and you assume that it MUST mean Mexican.

For those that say "if you take away their incentive by leaving heavy fines against corporations that hire illegals they would stop coming here" you are foolish.

Sure getting on the payroll of some vegetable farm or a private landscaping company and not paying taxes on your wages is one aspect, but that is not the ONLY reason they come here.

If your theory is to take away incentive to make them shy away from coming here then you MUST take away ALL incentives.

-go after companies that hire illegals (big and small)

-get rid of the laws that allow illegals to come here have kids and then allow them to stay for the child's sake.

-take away any social benefits that they may be entitled to (welfare money and food stamps)

-take away any college assistance

-strengthen the land borders so that people can't just stroll across a stream and walk on in

-patrol our oceans better, do better checks in shipyards so that people coming by boat do not sneak in.

this is not a house of cards, if you take one part of the structure away the flow of illegals will continue by land, sea and air....you must take away all the parts that support it so that if collapses and makes people want to stay in their own country to not only make it better for themselves, but better for the generations that follow.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: DVK916
So much racism in this thread, very disturbing. These children are U.S citizens, and this bill can't change this. It is part of our constitution, and would require an amendment to change, further more it shouldn't be changed. These children have every right to be here, and every right to citizenship, they are Americans. People who call them anchor babies are sick racist, who are probably in th KKK.

They have a "right" to be here? How so?

I think you have a right to be where your parents are citizens. But does everybody else on this planet have a "right" to be here?

I have spent much time living outside of the USA. I had no "right" to be in those countries, at least that's what they told me. I had to go through a lot of effort to live & work there. Nor would my child have a citizen of any of these foreign countries - i.e., no "rights" as you speak of.

Fern

 

[IGBT]

..this needs to happen. The era of the unsettled US continent is long over. 1800's era imigration policies are obsolete.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: DVK916
So much racism in this thread, very disturbing. These children are U.S citizens, and this bill can't change this. It is part of our constitution, and would require an amendment to change, further more it shouldn't be changed. These children have every right to be here, and every right to citizenship, they are Americans. People who call them anchor babies are sick racist, who are probably in th KKK.

Maybe you're the real racist for bending over backwards in order to see racism in everything.

Might it be possible that people are not racist but rather don't want to have to pay to provide government benefits (and any needed police and prison costs) for impoverished infants and their parents?

Might it be possible that some people are concerned about the issue of popluation explosion and wonder where all of the land and natural resources and clean air and clean water are going to come from to provide for an exploding population?

Who's the real racist--someone with legitimate reasons for his viewpoint or a guy who can only think in terms of racial collectivism and who thus sees the "racism" behind every corner?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Seems crystal clear to me.

Try to think like a lawyer for a minute. What exactly does "AND subject to the jurisdiction thereof" mean in the context of the Amendment? If it simply means "being physically present in the United States" then why was it included after the words "All persons born or naturalized IN the United States"? Wouldn't that be unnecessarily redundant? Might some sort of meaning have been intended by including "AND subject to the jurisdiction of"?

I don't know. I'm not a Fourteenth Amendment nor a Constitutional Law scholar, but perhaps we'll get a chance to find out if this makes it to the federal appellate courts.

Regardless, I think we should amend the 14th Amendment to unambiguously protect against anchor babies.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

What's real scary is that as of right now, 17 people have voted against automatically denying citizenship to children of illegals. I suppose that in their minds the United States has endless amounts of land and natural resources and also endless amounts of tax dollars to spend on impoverished anchor babies and their families. It's as though they live in a cuckoo-cloud world where the correct policy choices are the touchy-feeley ones that just feel good.

 

[Thump553]

What's REALLY scary to me is so many people choose to disregard the plain and clear language of the Constitution because it they aren't happy with the results. Absent a Constitutional amendment this proposal is a dead letter, nothing more than the subject for a bull session.

Not even the world's most "activist" judge could make an argument that such crystal clear constitutional language should be "clarified" out of exisitence.

 

[Craig234]

To anyone: what is your plan to help with the issue of poverty in Mexico? I think that's the question to ask. Too many Americans say who cares, and leave huge poverty. I have less sympathy for their complaints about the illegal immigration problem even if it cost them money, but it actually *helps* them and they still complain.

If you want to seal the borders, first have a plan for reducing poverty in Mexico. Not a lie like NAFTA where things that profit corporations and hurt people are misrepresented as wonderful for addressing poverty.

I'd prefer a plan which both stops illegal immigration and helps poverty to the current mess, but the only plans offered are ones which will increase the poverty and harm our economy by sealing the border.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: DVK916
So much racism in this thread, very disturbing. These children are U.S citizens, and this bill can't change this. It is part of our constitution, and would require an amendment to change, further more it shouldn't be changed. These children have every right to be here, and every right to citizenship, they are Americans. People who call them anchor babies are sick racist, who are probably in th KKK.

Oh, so I am a racist that is probably in the KKK because I call them anchor babies? Gee, I wonder why you got banned from offtopic.com?

Edit - I'll be a little bit nicer, idiots that make generalizations like you did are absolute morons.

 

[piasabird]

If the bill violates the constitution, it would be easier to just challenge the constitution and get a new decision that contradicts the constitution, which would in essence change the constitution for all time. Either that or challenge the constituionality of the past ammendment, claiming the ammendment to be unconstitutional, or that anchor babies are not really covered by that amendment, thus enabling the courts to make a new fair and equitable ruling that clarifies the existing amendment.

All of this is a big mess.

It is next to impossible to get an amendment ratified by say 50 states.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: techs
HaHa. Just Republican propaganda. Submit a bill you know is un-constitutional to try and make people forget your years and years of failure to protect the borders.

Clinton sure did a bang up job on the border control didnt he....

The border issue has been going on for a LOOONG time. Its good to see you care enough about the actual problems in this country to try to work to fix the problem rather then just turning it into a Left/Right issue.

Errr........

At least Clinton went after employers who hired illegals. Bush has virtually stopped all prosecutions.

That's funny because there was just a raid this morning in Houston. And if I recall, there was a large raid last week in California. In fact, I think there is a thread around here about it with many of the posters making snide and jabbing remarks about the raid. Just can't win with some of you, can he?