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CISPA IS BACK!!! Obama to order it by EXECUTIVE ORDER TOMORROW.

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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Right.

So you're admitting that you flipped out before learning about what you were flipping about.

I hope you apply this to the future.

I hope you learn to apply reading to commenting. I said that I don't know what's in it, not what would be. My commentary is based on proven lack of consideration of rights in the past. Of course of you can show how he said he held ATT accountable, or how he is loved by people like the EFF for making sure the NSA isn't abusing it's power by acting illegally in domestic wiretaps. Maybe it will be completely innocuous, but then again so is Obama's drone program.

Good luck with that.
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
The things people are saying in this thread and the things you read about the CISPA bill in various news blogs are very alarming. So alarming that I actually went and found the text of the original CISPA bill (as it was presented to the Senate, so including all amendments made in the House), read through it entirely, then read through all of the amendments that were made and the transcribed discussions around them. Then I read up on numerous interpretations of what the bill would cause or allow to happen. Then I read through the entire bill again.

Personally I think the intention behind this bill is actually positive. I don't think this is an attempt by the government to invade anyone's personal life, to track and monitor the average American's internet activity, to crack down on the freedom of the internet, control the internet, or any number of the other doomsday cries you see all over the place. The intent really does seem to be to allow a legal avenue in which companies can, within boundaries, share specific information with other companies or with the federal government, for the express purpose of improving their information and network security.

This is not to say the bill is perfect. A few things I take issue with (note that the below is based on my interpretation and understanding of the bill, which is by no means guaranteed to be accurate, and I am not an expert on law by any stretch of the imagination):

1. There doesn't seem to be any wording in the bill to indicate that a company participating in this new form of information sharing has any legal responsibility to notify their employees or customers (or even make the information publicly available in any way shape or form). Maybe this is covered unintentionally under other laws, I don't know, but I would want it explicitly stated.


2. The following sections are probably what I am most uncomfortable with:

3 ‘‘(c) FEDERAL GOVERNMENT USE OF INFORMATION.—
4
5 ‘‘(1) LIMITATION.—The Federal Government
6 may use cyber threat information shared with the
7 Federal Government in accordance with subsection
8 (b)—
9 ‘‘(A) for cybersecurity purposes;
10 ‘‘(B) for the investigation and prosecution
11 of cybersecurity crimes;
12 ‘‘(C) for the protection of individuals from
13 the danger of death or serious bodily harm and
14 the investigation and prosecution of crimes
15 involving such danger of death or serious bodily
16 harm;
17 ‘‘(D) for the protection of minors from
18 child pornography, any risk of sexual exploitation,
19 and serious threats to the physical safety
20 of such minor, including kidnapping and
21 trafficking and the investigation and prosecution
22 of crimes involving child pornography, any
23 risk of sexual exploitation, and serious threats
24 to the physical safety of minors, including
25 kidnapping and trafficking, and any crime referred
1 to in 2258A(a)(2) of title 18, United States
2 Code; or
3 ‘‘(E) to protect the national security of the
4 United States.
5 ‘‘(2) AFFIRMATIVE SEARCH RESTRICTION.—
6 The Federal Government may not affirmatively
7 search cyber threat information shared with the
8 Federal Government under subsection (b) for a
9 purpose other than a purpose referred to in paragraph
10 (1)(B).

I struggle to understand how information related to personal bodily harm or child pornography would ever even be captured as part of 'cyber threat information'. The only thing that is being legally protected for sharing is 'cyber threat information', which is given a fairly strict definition in the bill, and I just don't see how a system built to identify 'cyber threat information' as it is defined would ever include the sort of information referred to in sections (C) and (D) above.

I can understand that this may be in here for 'just-in-case' purposes, that should the fed government ever come across such a threat in the process of analyzing data received from a company under the protection provided in this bill, then they at least have the legal authority to act on it (and its important to remember here that we are talking about information that a private sector company willingly handed over to the federal government as part of a mutual agreement, not information that was coerced or that the government collected itself). It also helps that they include an 'affirmative search restriction' clause, effectively saying they are not allowed to intentionally search the data that is shared with them for evidence of any activities not specified in section (B) above (and 'cybersecurity crimes' is also fairly strictly defined for those who haven't read the bill).

It still does not sit right with me though, it seems to be the one thing in this bill that really opens the door for potential abuse and future expansion of power beyond what is needed.


3. The 'exemption from liability' clause for private sector companies that want to participate in this is far too broad. I understand that for any company to buy in to this, they must have a reasonable expectation that they are protected under the law to share certain information and not be taken to court for anything and everything. But this is too open to interpretation. Companies still need to be held accountable for protecting the data they share (while in their possession and during transfer), and that they take all possible steps (within reason) to ensure that the entities they are sharing this data with are reliable and can also be expected to protect and not misuse that data (backed up by legally binding contracts, ideally).

There also needs to be an honest and concerted effort on the part of the information provider to ensure they are only sharing data that is relevant to the definition of 'cyber threat information', and if not they need to be able to be held accountable for that. For example I can't think of a single reason that someones personal email would be a valid candidate for 'cyber threat information', and if some company decided to start sending peoples email out under this guise of 'cyber threat information', then regardless of whether it was intended for malicious purposes or not, there should be repercussions.

4. Government liability and oversight. While the government liability clause is stricter than for the companies sharing the information, it does not seem to allow a person to sue for simple negligence in the disclosure, use, or protection of the information they receive, which has become fairly common these days. Ignorance and laziness are not an excuse for mishandling sensitive data, and the government doesn't get a free pass.

There is also not a lot of oversight built in to the process. While the rules themselves do a reasonably good job of stating what the government is allowed to do with the data that is shared with them, the only explicitly stated oversight is a yearly report to 'congressional intelligence committees'. Given the nature of what we're talking about here I don't think this is enough.

5. It might be worth considering requiring companies that want to be considered 'cybersecurity providers' under the provisions of this bill to meet some sort of standard or be designated by the government as such. I don't think this is necessarily required, but it would go a long way towards shoring up some of the potential for abuse.

6. I'd like to see a strict data retention policy spelled out within the bill. As far as I can tell there is nothing in it at the moment that requires them to ever dispose of the data. I'm not sure exactly how long I'd be comfortable with, but it shouldn't be passed until there is some guarantee that the government can't just sit on all of that data forever, it doesn't further the stated goals of the bill in any way, and can only lead to bad things.


Well that's what I have for now. I'm sure I've missed some things. Anyways, the nature of the amendments that were pushed through gives me some hope that this bill has a chance of getting to where it needs to be. The new version that is being presented to the House is not yet publicly available (I couldn't find it at least, if its out there I'd appreciate a link), but some reports are saying its basically the same as when it died in the Senate. I guess we'll know soon enough.


Now for some quotes from this thread. I'm really bad at imagining the loopholes and backdoors that are sometimes built in to laws, so forgive me if I need some things spelled out in plain English.

What it does is give more power to them and less power to us. All under the guise of more security.
This order will make America a safer place to raise your children.

What power do you see being taken away from you as a result of this bill? Please use references to the actual bill as support if possible.

Yet again the Internet is under attack by copyright extremism.

I'm not an expert but I don't recall seeing anything in this bill that is even remotely related to copyright violations. I'd like to know if I'm missing something though (entirely possible), so if it is in there could you please direct me to those sections.

I don't know if it adds or removes any protections to do the same for private entities handling your information, but I'm not sure there was a layer of protection involved in the previous version.

Private entities are given what seems to be a free pass as long as they are 'acting in good faith' when they screw up. I'd really like a definition of 'acting in good faith' present in the bill, and then a chance to dispute it, before I would support the bill being passed.

But I wouldn't approve this bill's passing if it continues to include the anti-piracy measures. They are far too broad, and could be far too damaging with little interpretation of individual situations based on over-exaggerated results derived from flawed calculations.

I don't recall seeing anything about anti-piracy in the amended version from May 2012.

It is basically legalizing what they are already doing... That is... logging pretty much all internet traffic, especially emails.

I'm not sure how this bill could be construed to be legalizing the logging of all internet traffic. This bill does not actually expand the governments ability to do anything on the internet, let alone log activity. It is opening up a voluntary legal avenue for private sector companies to share only the information they want to with the government (and only certain information is allowed to be shared, Anandtech can't just decide to send out the entire history of every post on this forum for example). The government then has a fairly limited set of legally acceptable activities it can do with that data.

If you disagree, please support your position with references to the actual bill if possible.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
3 ‘‘(E) to protect the national security of the
United States.

Virtually every excess has been done for this purpose. We aren't even allowed to determine by any legal means if there are illegal domestic wiretaps, something the Justice Department and others like Feinstein insist we remain ignorant of.

What, precisely, is "national security"? It's the Commerce clause of the Administration, a catch all tool, at least it has been.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Sad.. I like Obama but at the same time I see that he's one side of the same coin :(

You think they would allow you to vote for anyone else? I coined the phase BlackBush when he was still in primaries back in 08. Ones who get the paper will all be Xbush from here on out. You're just tossing your vote in the trash thinking it means something.

Until we publicly finance all campaigns it will remain so.
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
Virtually every excess has been done for this purpose. We aren't even allowed to determine by any legal means if there are illegal domestic wiretaps, something the Justice Department and others like Feinstein insist we remain ignorant of.

What, precisely, is "national security"? It's the Commerce clause of the Administration, a catch all tool, at least it has been.

True, thats a very vague term, but I guess I'm not aware of how its presence in the bill could lead to misuse. Would you suggest it is removed? If it is removed, does that remove the governments legal authority to act on information they receive through this program unless it is directly related to (A)/(B)/(C)/(D)? Now that I think about it I'm having a hard time coming up with a good example of what might constitute a national security threat, but not be related to (A), (B), or (C). That may just be because I have no idea what constitutes a nation security threat though. I'm also having trouble seeing the link between 'we used this information we received from AT&T to set up an illegal wiretap'. But then I'm not a very devious person.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
The things people are saying in this thread and the things you read about the CISPA bill in various news blogs are very alarming. So alarming that I actually went and found the text of the original CISPA bill (as it was presented to the Senate, so including all amendments made in the House), read through it entirely, then read through all of the amendments that were made and the transcribed discussions around them. Then I read up on numerous interpretations of what the bill would cause or allow to happen. Then I read through the entire bill again.

SNIP

If you disagree, please support your position with references to the actual bill if possible.
Thank you for that reasoned, thoughtful evaluation.

Virtually every excess has been done for this purpose. We aren't even allowed to determine by any legal means if there are illegal domestic wiretaps, something the Justice Department and others like Feinstein insist we remain ignorant of.

What, precisely, is "national security"? It's the Commerce clause of the Administration, a catch all tool, at least it has been.
This too is true. Separating the honest need for operational security & secrecy from expediency or even malfeasance is practically impossible.

I think if one assumes that politicians will ignore one's rights in confidence that they know best, one will never stray too far from the truth.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
3,622
0
0
This particular one isn't about copyright.

It is basically legalizing what they are already doing... That is... logging pretty much all internet traffic, especially emails.

5 Zettabytes of storage.
(1000GB = 1 Terabyte, 1000 Terabytes = 1 Petabyte, 1000PB = 1 Exabyte, 1000EB = 1ZB)

So 5,000,000,000,000GB of storage.

And that is one NSA facility.

They are storing it all in a massive database and are able to call up this cataloged information on anyone when they see fit, all without warrants or even probable cause.

thats a lot of nds
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,953
2,670
126
It directs the government to share more information about computer threats with the private sector and issue more security clearances allowing industry representatives to receive classified information, the officials said.
Classified information shared with "industry representatives" is no longer classified.
 
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MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
9,399
8,786
136
Sad.. I like Obama but at the same time I see that he's one side of the same coin :(
Yea, plus we didn't have a choice.

My ballot would have been rejected in 2008 and 2012 for voting for either the senile old fart/ignorant twit from wasilla, or the funny underwear dude with android like smile, would have caused me to vomit violently while still in the voting booth.
 

karldanger

Junior Member
Feb 19, 2013
1
0
0
@Wardawg1001- I did the same thing as you when I heard all the uproar about this coming back and I've come to similar conclusions. I think I may be able to address some of your points but may I don't fully understand it either...

1. I would imagine that if someone's information is shared they would have had to pre/approved such a thing by an employment agreement or terms of service. I'm not entirely versed on privacy law but this seems to be a list of all the Federal laws. So if there are Federal laws regulating such a thing it would could be found here. https://www.cdt.org/privacy/guide/protect/laws.php

2. I can see the inclusion of provision (C) in case the cyber threat would disrupt of destroy a critical system that could lead to injury or death such as traffic/flight/rail controls or power plant operations. As for (D), I'm not really sure? Maybe since that stuff is predominantly trafficked online it may give security providers the ability to report it? It seems to be fairly specific as to what it includes?

3.&4. The liability exemptions do seem fairly broad but it does states more or less only when what is done is in accordance with the strict definitions of how and what information may be used. I would think that if someone is negligent with how they disclose, use, or protect such information that would not be in accordance with what the bill states and they could then be found liable.

Oversight seems like it could be more frequent but I'm not sure how useful that would be? The information being shared is treated as private and proprietary so it cannot be divulged publicly and the metrics would probably not be as useful over a shorter time period.

6. The bill does state the government can only retain data for what is relevant as defined in the bill but that doesn't give a timeline for holding relevant data. But if it is relevant, should there be a limit to the time they can hold it for as long as it is stored and used properly? As for the private sector entities, I would imagine they would have their own private contracts that would state such a limit if they were to have one?