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CIA puts world at risk over polio

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Who cares if beloved patriot kids get sick?

Well most humans care about children regardless of race/nationality, but I am learning there is a very large number of American IT nerd/geeks that have no problem with slaughtering children.
In your haste to see Pakistan children die of polio you probably didn't even notice the *puts world at risk* part
 
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Unless we use nuclear weapons to carpet bomb, that day shall never come.

Pack up and go home.
I agree, making Afghanistan a peaceful 21st century nation is almost certainly a pipe dream and a tragic waste of lives and treasure. About the best we can do is kill off the current generation of leadership and destroy their ability to export terrorism whenever they attack us, then leave. Call it returning the land to the holy technology of Mohamed by destroying evil non-Islamic technology and everyone's happier. Right now we're attempting to teach a pig to dance when the pig has no interest in dancing and would rather be doing pig things if we weren't dangling food in front of it.

I would applaud Bush and Obama for trying, except they aren't the ones at risk of death or maiming.

We didn't do that in Afghanistan because they didn't have any infrastructure to destroy. It'd had already been destroyed by years of insurgency and civil war. Amazingly, the nearest city to me still has a functional Soviet hydroelectric damn. It produces less and less electricity every year though, as the Afghans are entirely incapable of maintaining or repairing it.

Those drone pilots do seem to have a tendency to kill themselves... they also beat and kill their wives and get in trouble with the law. Must be that dry air in Nevada.
The Afghanis are entirely incapable of maintaining or repairing it because that isn't important to them. When your education system is concerned almost solely concerned with what Mohamed did in the medieval world, even Soviet technology is going to remain above your head. And while we could train individuals to maintain and run that plant, since those above them would continue to be most concerned with their own power and prestige it would no doubt be another wasted effort.
 
Well most humans care about children regardless of race/nationality, but I am learning there is a very large number of American IT nerd/geeks that have no problem with slaughtering children.
In your haste to see Pakistan children die of polio you probably didn't even notice the *puts world at risk* part
Americans are in large part the ones attempting to keep beloved patriot kids from the horrors of polio.

There's a big, big difference between slaughtering children and not being allowed to protect those children because their relatives forbid it as a weapon against America.
 
Americans are in large part the ones attempting to keep beloved patriot kids from the horrors of polio.

There's a big, big difference between slaughtering children and not being allowed to protect those children because their relatives forbid it as a weapon against America.

Just so you know, 'beloved patriot' is a racial slur. I don't think you meant it that way, but just an FYI.
 
Americans are in large part the ones attempting to keep beloved patriot kids from the horrors of polio.

There's a big, big difference between slaughtering children and not being allowed to protect those children because their relatives forbid it as a weapon against America.

I know most Americans would do what they can to help any child 🙂
That's why I narrowed my reply down to posters on this board
 
You just kind of pulled that fact out of your ass again

The circumstances of their birth prohibit them from ever being significant contributors to the global community, or (more importantly) American prosperity. They'll grow up malnourished, isolated and uneducated, with their only word of the outside world coming from radical Mullahs and Imams. The very best among them will grow up to wage war against the West and those that they believe are puppets of the West. The rest will live miserable lives in mud hut villages barely eking out an existence.

I didn't put them in those circumstances, and I don't revel in their misfortune, but I'm not a bad guy for seeing them for what they are.
 
The circumstances of their birth prohibit them from ever being significant contributors to the global community, or (more importantly) American prosperity. They'll grow up malnourished, isolated and uneducated, with their only word of the outside world coming from radical Mullahs and Imams. The very best among them will grow up to wage war against the West and those that they believe are puppets of the West. The rest will live miserable lives in mud hut villages barely eking out an existence.

I didn't put them in those circumstances, and I don't revel in their misfortune, but I'm not a bad guy for seeing them for what they are.

Hmmmm I wonder why they have such hostile views towards the West.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjlgUx7_aN0
 
The circumstances of their birth prohibit them from ever being significant contributors to the global community, or (more importantly) American prosperity. They'll grow up malnourished, isolated and uneducated, with their only word of the outside world coming from radical Mullahs and Imams. The very best among them will grow up to wage war against the West and those that they believe are puppets of the West. The rest will live miserable lives in mud hut villages barely eking out an existence.

I didn't put them in those circumstances, and I don't revel in their misfortune, but I'm not a bad guy for seeing them for what they are.

Those people lived like that for thousands of years and managed just fine.
You think it's miserable to live in a mud hut, they think its home sweet home.
Just like in America the big cities were far more advanced then the rural areas.
No doubt you point at your rural cousins in their trailers and think them far below you.

To say we did not destroy any infrastructure is another lie.
All the major cities were destroyed just like in Iraq.

To really take an honest look at Afghanistan, a person has to start at least a 100 years ago

I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like to grow up knowing that every time you hear a plane overhead it could mean death.
But I can imagine how someone would get a little resentful towards the people flying those planes
 
And we should leave them to their mud huts. It's where they're going to end up anyway. They don't want to change.

You got the look back 100 years part, but you seem to miss that all the infrastructure was destroyed by civil war before we ever showed up. We didn't destroy the infrastructure.
 
You got the look back 100 years part, but you seem to miss that all the infrastructure was destroyed by civil war before we ever showed up. We didn't destroy the infrastructure.

You want me to believe that no electrical plants, telecommunication centers, water, roads, bridges, etc existed in Afghanistan before the war started??
All these things were bombed during the beginning of the war.
Maybe you should spend a few moments and just read the wiki about it.
Might refresh your memory a bit.

On 7 October 2001, airstrikes were reported in the capital, Kabul (where electricity supplies were severed), at the airport, at Kandahar (home of the Taliban's Supreme Leader Mullah Omar), and in the city of Jalalabad. CNN released exclusive footage of Kabul being bombed to all the American broadcasters at approximately 5:08 pm October 7, 2001.[123]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001–present)
 
You want me to believe that no electrical plants, telecommunication centers, water, roads, bridges, etc existed in Afghanistan before the war started??
All these things were bombed during the beginning of the war.
Maybe you should spend a few moments and just read the wiki about it.
Might refresh your memory a bit.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001–present)
Considering that he just mentioned a Soviet-era power plant, I think it's pretty safe to assume he's not trying to make you believe that no electrical plants, telecommunication centers, water, roads, bridges, etc existed in Afghanistan before the war started. What he is trying make you believe is complicated enough that I won't try to explain it. I think this may be one of those cases where "you can't get there from here."
 
Considering that he just mentioned a Soviet-era power plant, I think it's pretty safe to assume he's not trying to make you believe that no electrical plants, telecommunication centers, water, roads, bridges, etc existed in Afghanistan before the war started. What he is trying make you believe is complicated enough that I won't try to explain it. I think this may be one of those cases where "you can't get there from here."

Exactly. I've visited several 30 year old power plants (including one in Jalalabad.) Most of them have been patched up by foreign contractors to fix the damage done to them during the civil war. But since the early 2000s, they've mostly been left in the hands of the local & provincial governments. I've also visited several newer power plants in the Kabul area, which cost hundreds of millions of dollars, and are run, maintained and repaired entirely by contractors.

Keep in mind that at no point in time has there been a 24/7 electrical grid in Afghanistan, and that includes today. The system is so slap-dash and rickety that high winds shut off power to entire cities. Everyone important\wealthy has generators, fueled by fuel that we give them to the tune of ~$100-$600 a gallon.

wonka.jpg
 

lol
Ya, one day your busy dealing with a Warthog, then next your touring old electrical plants...
They got you running the whole show over there
Poor fella

I'll rely on my Uncle for information, he is actually out there trying to help those people in the mud huts
 
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Just so you know, 'beloved patriot' is a racial slur. I don't think you meant it that way, but just an FYI.
Thanks. No disrespect meant. Incidentally I used to spend a lot of time on Pakistani English language political and military boards and never saw exception taken to that term, but maybe it's like the "N' word, depends on who's using it. I'll try to remember to avoid it.

lol
Ya, one day your busy dealing with a Warthog, then next your touring old electrical plants...
They got you running the whole show over there
Poor fella

I'll rely on my Uncle for information, he is actually out there trying to help those people in the mud huts
😀 Dude, he said a Warthog was working nearby, not that he was going to "deal with it". (It's possible that he DID deal with it, BDA or target lasing, but that's not what he SAID.) And don't forget that your uncle, as admirable as he may be, is limited to those areas deemed relatively safe. People with automatic rifles and Warthogs on station often see rather seamier parts of Afghanistan.

But I still love ya, buddy, you've got a great heart.
 
lol
Ya, one day your busy dealing with a Warthog, then next your touring old electrical plants...
They got you running the whole show over there
Poor fella

I'll rely on my Uncle for information, he is actually out there trying to help those people in the mud huts

You know this is my second tour, right? My recounted experiences aren't necessarily in sequential order.

Dealing with Close Air Support and Close Combat Aviation is a daily occurrence here, one valley away from the Pakistan border.
 
How is it that you're blaming the CIA and not the militant leaders (terrorists) kicking out health care workers?

Because the CIA has a history of pulling the exact same shit as what these people are accusing them of.

http://world.time.com/2011/07/18/why-the-cias-vaccine-ruse-is-a-setback-for-global-health/

Yeah let's blame the CIA instead of the terrorists who denied access. Great idea. Way to kill the kids CIA, it wasn't Muhammed Jihad's fault at all!!!! The blame lies with the people requesting aid, not the people giving it....even if they were spying while they were there.

Nobody's requesting aid, that's the point. Everyone else has something else to care about, apart from the kids that will contract and die of polio. It's not exactly the moral high ground to say that just because the Taliban doesn't care about sick kids, means the CIA shouldn't care about them either.
 
Because the CIA has a history of pulling the exact same shit as what these people are accusing them of.

http://world.time.com/2011/07/18/why-the-cias-vaccine-ruse-is-a-setback-for-global-health/



Nobody's requesting aid, that's the point. Everyone else has something else to care about, apart from the kids that will contract and die of polio. It's not exactly the moral high ground to say that just because the Taliban doesn't care about sick kids, means the CIA shouldn't care about them either.
His point clearly wasn't that the CiA didn't gather intelligence by having a Pakistani doctor start a polio vaccination program as a cover, but rather that the cause of Pakistani children not having access to polio vaccinations is due strictly to the Taliban-types choosing to throw out health care providers - they elected to provide greater safety to themselves at direct risk to the children. (Or even more likely considering that this trick has just been pulled, they elected to put children at risk of polio as a political weapon.)
 
And don't forget that your uncle, as admirable as he may be, is limited to those areas deemed relatively safe. People with automatic rifles and Warthogs on station often see rather seamier parts of Afghanistan.

But I still love ya, buddy, you've got a great heart.

Really?
How about you put a trip on your credit card for the both of us, and let's see where all we can go.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/...Afghanistan-tourism-limited-by-war/55237330/1

KABUL, Afghanistan — Travel agent Sayed Zamanuddin Baha gets calls from people all over the world asking if they can see Tora Bora, the cave complex where Osama bin Laden slipped away from invading U.S. forces in 2001.
"Come! We will help you with your trip," the president of Afghan Tours says he tells callers. "But no one ever comes."

If you got the coin we could probably arrange a face to face with a real life Taliban.
Of course I wouldn't recommend that
 
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His point clearly wasn't that the CiA didn't gather intelligence by having a Pakistani doctor start a polio vaccination program as a cover, but rather that the cause of Pakistani children not having access to polio vaccinations is due strictly to the Taliban-types choosing to throw out health care providers - they elected to provide greater safety to themselves at direct risk to the children. (Or even more likely considering that this trick has just been pulled, they elected to put children at risk of polio as a political weapon.)

I don't think it counts as a political weapon, because I don't think that the Taliban are doing this solely (or even largely) because it will be politically divisive. I think they actually believe that allowing WHO healthcare missions into their territory will mean the CIA will come in through those healthcare missions and kill them. So that just leaves this objection: "they elected to provide greater safety to themselves at direct risk to the children".

With regards to this, not sure I can blame them, to be honest. My peoples' survival, or the survival of a handful of children somewhere, potentially far away, who I will never meet? Remember, polio isn't a big killer anymore. Even before the vaccine, mortality was declining because of improved medical care for victims. So personally, I don't think it's an easy decision to make, and condemning the Taliban for making this moral decision is qualitatively no different to calling people out about their choices in the trolley problem. The only difference is that the Taliban is actually living it, whereas the trolley problem is a hypothetical situation.
 
Really?
How about you put a trip on your credit card for the both of us, and let's see where all we can go.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/...Afghanistan-tourism-limited-by-war/55237330/1



If you got the coin we could probably arrange a face to face with a real life Taliban.
Of course I wouldn't recommend that
LOL Sorry, Afghanistan is on my list of places to avoid. (Not to mention that if I bought someone else an airplane ticket I'd have, um, trouble at home.)

I don't think it counts as a political weapon, because I don't think that the Taliban are doing this solely (or even largely) because it will be politically divisive. I think they actually believe that allowing WHO healthcare missions into their territory will mean the CIA will come in through those healthcare missions and kill them. So that just leaves this objection: "they elected to provide greater safety to themselves at direct risk to the children".

With regards to this, not sure I can blame them, to be honest. My peoples' survival, or the survival of a handful of children somewhere, potentially far away, who I will never meet? Remember, polio isn't a big killer anymore. Even before the vaccine, mortality was declining because of improved medical care for victims. So personally, I don't think it's an easy decision to make, and condemning the Taliban for making this moral decision is qualitatively no different to calling people out about their choices in the trolley problem. The only difference is that the Taliban is actually living it, whereas the trolley problem is a hypothetical situation.
That's well put, but remember that we aren't really killing Taliban. We're killing terrorists like Usama and those planting roadside bombs, or those (possibly Taliban, possibly AL-Qaeda) actively shooting or firing mortars at us.
 
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LOL Sorry, Afghanistan is on my list of places to avoid. (Not to mention that if I bought someone else an airplane ticket I'd have, um, trouble at home.)


That's well put, but remember that we aren't really killing Taliban. We're killing terrorists like Obama and those planting roadside bombs, or those (possibly Taliban, possibly AL-Qaeda) actively shooting or firing mortars at us.

Deliberate or mistake? :sneaky:
 
Deliberate or mistake? :sneaky:
😀 Mistake, obviously. (Obama killing Obama?)

I don't have a high opinion of President Obama, but I don't consider him in any way a terrorist. I think he bravely took a political risk in going after Usama, I have no problem with the way he is using drones to kill people he considers terrorists (it's after all his final decision, but not merely his opinion), and I think in general he has prosecuted the war against Islamic terrorists quite well. I'll just claim Ted Kennedy Syndrome, since he too could not keep them apart.

I've actually been trying to write "Usama" rather than "Osama" to help me not do this. I just blew this one.
 
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