Church abducts and beats a gay man to exorcise him of his demons

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Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
DCT is one of my philosophical "berserk buttons." This may be unfair, but anyone who presses that button gets filed in either the "too dumb to live" or "sociopath" bins, depending on how malicious they seem.

I'd like to think most DCT proponents are simply philosophically naive, but even then, there comes a time when Hanlon's Razor loses its edge. Decoupling morality from anything observable and replicable, especially when it gives a license to torture and kill, is a recipe for disaster. It creates schizoid, morally-stunted aberrations.
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,446
106
A "support group" doesn't provide the foundations upon which religion is built:
1. Hope for immortality.
2. Hope for an order to world, that makes sense that we're just not privy to.
3. Hope for protection for ourselves and loved ones.
4. Absolution of our transgressions.
5. Mechanism for community.
6. Mechanism for charity.

All of these are powerful psychological motivators, and largely "good" things.

When the Bible was written, there was need to populate the Earth to advance mankind, and Christian culture. So we get things like "spilling seed on the ground" (Onan), "Laying with a man as with a woman" (Leviticus), "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis).

Nonetheless, people largely shouldn't kill others, commit adultery, steal, covet, etc and like it or not the origins of much of rule of law and our modern "morality" can be found in the Bible.

Whether Divine word or brilliant social planning or both, religion does far more good than harm.

Truthfully, a support group is what you create it to be.

1. No such thing as immortality. That's a promise man created to sooth fear of death and worry about having lived a worth while life. It is also used as a threat. That promise is metaphorical not literal. If there is something after this life it can not be described or defined by human comprehension.... or a book of pretty words that also within its pages contains and condones such filth and deplorable expectations or requirement in the name of God. I certainly walk the earth in a way that gives a nod to some of what the Bible says because I am a good person with good intentions and a desire to be kind but that book is not why I am who I am.

2. Humans know how to live among one another, we just don't. God will do nothing to change it. "Hope" or payer changes nothing. Actions do.

3. Is that God protecting you? No. God let's you live or die exactly how it goes down.

4. We must absolve ourselves to be worthy. But even if we don't we're still embraced. <--- I know, difficult to digest.

5. Community happens with or without God or church.

6. Too often Charity through church involves shame. Charity should always be about personal and individual generosity.

Religion, especially organized religion has done far more damage than good when you look to the world rather than the four walls of the church an individual attends. Sure there are good churches and I'm no one to judge which for sure but every one thinks their church is one of the good ones.

I stick with converting all churches of all kinds to support groups without gospel, scripture, doctrine... but instead speaks of humanitarianism, inclusion, motivation, encouragement, acceptance, love, kindness, generosity... but stops there. If it's important to those attending such a group gathering then end the meetings by telling them God Loves Them.

This is what I know and feel. Not one single soul needs to agree with me. My confidence is high and my spirit is free. I ask no one to confirm God's love for me. I rely only on me to do and be the kind of human I know I'm supposed to be.
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
1,800
529
106
Regarding absolution, the only way to gain absolution for transgressions is a full understanding of what was wrong about them and living a life based on that understanding. Absolution is only through the effects of the actions that you would not have undertaken if you had not learned from the prior transgression.

Otherwise it's not absolution, it's a mental crutch to avoid responsibility and personal growth.

And now for a pyrophorically hot take on charity: Charity as an act is a good act for a person to perform. Charity as a thing that happens en masse and is facilitated isn't actually that good. It's basically turning dealing with the consequences of society's failure as a whole into a bidding war that serves as a safety valve for the discontent of the best members of the community. If someone proposed a tax specifically on good people, it'd be ludicrous. But mass charity is exactly that, just facilitated by the blameless invisible hand of guilt. Same goes for tithing incidentally, it's just a regressive or non-progressive tax that splits the tax base up arbitrarily, which just means it's a less effective form of taxation for social programs. Woo.

(Incidentally, when I say something's a hot take that usually means I'm trending dangerously close to accelerationism and fully expect to be taken down a peg.)
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,446
106
Regarding absolution, the only way to gain absolution for transgressions is a full understanding of what was wrong about them and living a life based on that understanding. Absolution is only through the effects of the actions that you would not have undertaken if you had not learned from the prior transgression.

Otherwise it's not absolution, it's a mental crutch to avoid responsibility and personal growth.

And now for a pyrophorically hot take on charity: Charity as an act is a good act for a person to perform. Charity as a thing that happens en masse and is facilitated isn't actually that good. It's basically turning dealing with the consequences of society's failure as a whole into a bidding war that serves as a safety valve for the discontent of the best members of the community. If someone proposed a tax specifically on good people, it'd be ludicrous. But mass charity is exactly that, just facilitated by the blameless invisible hand of guilt. Same goes for tithing incidentally, it's just a regressive or non-progressive tax that splits the tax base up arbitrarily, which just means it's a less effective form of taxation for social programs. Woo.

(Incidentally, when I say something's a hot take that usually means I'm trending dangerously close to accelerationism and fully expect to be taken down a peg.)

But not necessarily your own transgressions. A person can absolutely learn from others behaviors and consequences as well as through reading and educating oneself. There is not only one path to forgiving oneself. But we are human and often make the same mistakes over and over. Forgiveness is intensely personal hence the reason church should stay out of it.

I don't believe I understand your take on charity. I come away believing you have a rather narrow take on what it is. For some, maybe even many, guilt plays in to it but then I'm not sure I would call that charity. A person gives of themselves as they see fit and because they want to. It's too simple to think of charity as a personal tax, people give for a multitude of reasons and I think there's more good in their reasons than guilt or shame but even still they give because fundamentally they know it's the right thing for them to do. There's no reason not to help those in need but of course need is decided and defined by the giver.

Ahh, tithes. Well, I don't call it tithes anymore. I call it a paycheck. If I attended church I would only give what I felt I could afford. No book, no person could ever convince me differently. My mother, raising 5 of her 7 kids on her own, never having worked outside of the home for the first 22 years after her education concluded after 8th grade worked at a job where she had to make quota. Child support was irregular (depending on how many flying lessons and racquet ball my dad could fit in to a month) She paid tithes happily. It hurt our family in my estimation. She felt not one iota of guilt. Religion was the only thing that gave her piece of mind. She gave with love in her heart and had no doubts.

Alright I digress. My point is charity is a far bigger thing than you are suggesting. It's far too personal individually to classify in one sweeping statement toward state of mind.
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
1,800
529
106
But not necessarily your own transgressions. A person can absolutely learn from others behaviors and consequences as well as through reading and educating oneself. There is not only one path to forgiving oneself. But we are human and often make the same mistakes over and over. Forgiveness is intensely personal hence the reason church should stay out of it.

I don't believe I understand your take on charity. I come away believing you have a rather narrow take on what it is. For some, maybe even many, guilt plays in to it but then I'm not sure I would call that charity. A person gives of themselves as they see fit and because they want to. It's too simple to think of charity as a personal tax, people give for a multitude of reasons and I think there's more good in their reasons than guilt or shame but even still they give because fundamentally they know it's the right thing for them to do. There's no reason not to help those in need but of course need is decided and defined by the giver.

Ahh, tithes. Well, I don't call it tithes anymore. I call it a paycheck. If I attended church I would only give what I felt I could afford. No book, no person could ever convince me differently. My mother, raising 5 of her 7 kids on her own, never having worked outside of the home for the first 22 years after her education concluded after 8th grade worked at a job where she had to make quota. Child support was irregular (depending on how many flying lessons and racquet ball my dad could fit in to a month) She paid tithes happily. It hurt our family in my estimation. She felt not one iota of guilt. Religion was the only thing that gave her piece of mind. She gave with love in her heart and had no doubts.

Alright I digress. My point is charity is a far bigger thing than you are suggesting. It's far too personal individually to classify in one sweeping statement toward state of mind.

Yeah, absolutely. That's why I made the disclaimers I did. I don't think I was necessarily clear though. I'm specifically narrowing my view to the role the church takes in charity. The rest is a stunted ancillary to that point, which is clearly way too reductive a point of view. Heck, it doesn't even include my motivations and reasoning which should be a major red flag.

From the perspective of the giver, charity is a selfless act that is good (the example of your mother is a case where in my estimation the good done is less than what those resources could have achieved if they were spent closer to home, but that's a digression). Regarding guilt versus selflessness, yes, that's something I definitely phrased poorly to the point what I said wasn't what I tried to say. It's not guilt per se but discontent with the results of the social order. If you felt that society resulted in the correct outcomes for everyone, then there would be nobody to give charity to. That doesn't necessarily rely on the feelings of complicity that guilt implies.

From the perspective of the church, however, charity is a murkier act. They aren't the ones giving. They're the ones facilitating when they're in a notional position of spiritual and social guidance. From that perspective, they're masking their failings as far as advocating for social change with the generosity of others, taking advantage of the generosity and need for belonging of those it should be treating the best.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,015
4,785
136
I had words with a pastor and his flock last year over their stance on the TX LBGT bathroom law. They were so hate filled that I almost couldn't stomach going back and forth with them over it. I absolutely don't hate gay people and neither should anyone else. You can be kind to a person whom you don't necessarily agree with on some things.
 

Roflmouth

Golden Member
Oct 5, 2015
1,059
61
46
I had words with a pastor and his flock last year over their stance on the TX LBGT bathroom law.

Sure you did.

They were so hate filled that I almost couldn't stomach going back and forth with them over it.

But you totally persevered and convinced them that it's totally normal for a guy in a dress to use the same bathroom as a genetic woman.
 

Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
Why do the transphobes always focus on MtFs and never say anything about FtMs? Jeez, and I thought we lesbians were invisible...

Says a lot about you guys, you know. In the end, MtFs scare you because you're terrified of a man treating you the way you treat women. FtMs are invisible to you because you can't even comprehend the idea.
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,446
106
I have an Uncle who is gay, a cousin who is gay and one of my closest friends is gay. When we are all in "heaven" together some day we are going to have such a good time! And anyone who thought during their human experience that gays won't be admitted will join in the fun along with any and everyone else. <--- Ooo oh no she didn't... Oh yes she did! None of these concerns or fears or ugliness or hate will exist in heaven. I personally think you should go ahead and feel stupid now if you are someone who thinks heaven adheres to any kind of rules fostered by hate and created by man for all sorts of ugly human reasons has anything to do with God or heaven.
 

edcoolio

Senior member
May 10, 2017
275
75
56
Females: XX

Males: XY

Anything else is considered a genetic defect.

Self-mutilation cannot change this nor can mental constructs. Just because you believe you are a monkey and mutilate yourself to look like one does not make it so.

You can pretend you are a female, you can pretend you are a male. You can (now) legally be a male or female, but the genetics of the situation are what they are.

If you're a gay male, cool. If you're a gay female, cool. If you like every adult under the sun, that's cool too. I seriously do not care in the least bit, just don't make me pay for it through my taxes.

Do with these facts and opinions what you will.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,085
5,618
126
Females: XX

Males: XY

Anything else is considered a genetic defect.

Self-mutilation cannot change this nor can mental constructs. Just because you believe you are a monkey and mutilate yourself to look like one does not make it so.

You can pretend you are a female, you can pretend you are a male. You can (now) legally be a male or female, but the genetics of the situation are what they are.

If you're a gay male, cool. If you're a gay female, cool. If you like every adult under the sun, that's cool too. I seriously do not care in the least bit, just don't make me pay for it through my taxes.

Do with these facts and opinions what you will.

Wrong.
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,446
106
Females: XX

Males: XY

Anything else is considered a genetic defect.

Self-mutilation cannot change this nor can mental constructs. Just because you believe you are a monkey and mutilate yourself to look like one does not make it so.

You can pretend you are a female, you can pretend you are a male. You can (now) legally be a male or female, but the genetics of the situation are what they are.

If you're a gay male, cool. If you're a gay female, cool. If you like every adult under the sun, that's cool too. I seriously do not care in the least bit, just don't make me pay for it through my taxes.

Do with these facts and opinions what you will.

May I ask you what difference it makes to you? If they're "pretending" as you say and you don't have to pay for anything they choose to do to aid in helping them "pretend" better it's really of no consequence to you, correct? If that's the case then it's really a point of view that's not particularly necessary or poignant, right? You're not even suggesting you won't accept them as people, you just won't "pretend" with them. And if that's all they are doing then they are at worst a little quirky. I' m just trying to understand what the point of your comment was except that you don't want to pay money.

I have a transgender friend. He MC'd karaoke where I used to go to sing. He was a big truck driver. He was a pretty unhappy guy back then. Often grumpy and spiteful and dark. It was difficult to like him but I did. She is now an MC for karaoke, still a big truck driver and happy. She has peace in her heart and enjoys her life now. To her, that's worth everything. And it is much easier to enjoy her and like her. From my perspective, seeing her as she is today makes my heart feel good for her and for me.
 
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jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Females: XX

Males: XY

Anything else is considered a genetic defect.

Self-mutilation cannot change this nor can mental constructs. Just because you believe you are a monkey and mutilate yourself to look like one does not make it so.

You can pretend you are a female, you can pretend you are a male. You can (now) legally be a male or female, but the genetics of the situation are what they are.

If you're a gay male, cool. If you're a gay female, cool. If you like every adult under the sun, that's cool too. I seriously do not care in the least bit, just don't make me pay for it through my taxes.

Do with these facts and opinions what you will.
You strike me as the sort who calls people by nicknames when they specifically ask not to be called by nicknames.
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
I always question the veracity of any religious organization when I see this kind of stuff in the founders backgrounds.
The sect was founded in 1979 by Jane Whaley, a former math teacher, and her husband, Sam, a former used car salesman.

It's the strangest thing because my church while not endorsing the lifestyle has a completely opposite approach. Of course I am Catholic (I know a special kind of evil) and Father Steve's brother was gay so maybe we were skewed somewhat from other Catholic churches. Would have been some kind of awesome if he could have just went inhuman on them and beat the jackdandy out of them. I would have paid for a seat to watch that.
 
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edcoolio

Senior member
May 10, 2017
275
75
56
May I ask you what difference it makes to you? If they're "pretending" as you say and you don't have to pay for anything they choose to do to aid in helping them "pretend" better it's really of no consequence to you, correct? If that's the case then it's really a point of view that's not particularly necessary or poignant, right? You're not even suggesting you won't accept them as people, you just won't "pretend" with them. And if that's all they are doing then they are at worst a little quirky. I' m just trying to understand what the point of your comment was except that you don't want to pay money.

I have a transgender friend. He MC'd karaoke where I used to go to sing. He was a big truck driver. He was a pretty unhappy guy back then. Often grumpy and spiteful and dark. It was difficult to like him but I did. She is now an MC for karaoke, still a big truck driver and happy. She has peace in her heart and enjoys her life now. To her, that's worth everything. And it is much easier to enjoy her and like her. From my prospective, seeing her as she is today makes my heart feel good for her and for me.

It makes no difference until Taxes go to "gender reassignment surgery".

It makes no difference until I do not "pretend" with them and get verbally attacked for calling someone "he" when they want to be called "her" or "she", or some other such nonsense. I say what I want.

From my perspective, these people need real help. Mutilating their sexual organs or adding visual glands where none exist is not helping them, I believe it is harming them.

Here is how I see your story as flawed:

I have a Napoleonesque friend. He MC'd karaoke where I used to go to sing and always said he was Napoleon and a big truck driver. He was a pretty unhappy guy back then. Often grumpy and spiteful and dark. It was difficult to like him but I did. Instead of getting mental help, he found a doctor that removed 4 inches from his legs and fixed his nose to look like Napoleon and got him a Napoleon style outfit and hat to wear. Napoleon is now an MC for karaoke, still a big truck driver and happy. Napoleon has peace in his heart and enjoys his life now. To Napoleon, that's worth everything. And it is much easier to enjoy Napoleon and like him. From my perspective, seeing Napoleon as he is today makes my heart feel good for Napoleon and I.
 
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Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
Look, I can't speak for, or to the experiences of, trans* people. But I'm friends with at least half a dozen, and every single one of them started massively improving since beginning transition. Even if you think they're just insane, the most efficacious mental health therapy seems to be bringing their bodies in line with their minds. @edcoolio, given that this is the case, your objections are "butbutbutbut i think it they're ickyyyyy~" rather than anything actually rooted in sound science or fiscal policy.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Look, I can't speak for, or to the experiences of, trans* people. But I'm friends with at least half a dozen, and every single one of them started massively improving since beginning transition. Even if you think they're just insane, the most efficacious mental health therapy seems to be bringing their bodies in line with their minds. @edcoolio, given that this is the case, your objections are "butbutbutbut i think it they're ickyyyyy~" rather than anything actually rooted in sound science or fiscal policy.
Not to mention the lack of compassion and respect.
 
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Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
Words like "respect" and "compassion" don't mean anything to people like him. The "conservatives" just see them as codespeak for weakness, lack of personal responsibility, and waste. Don't try to appeal to the humanity of people who don't have any left; they've long ago sacrificed it in the red-hot hands of their various Moloch idols.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
He's literally Hitler for not playing into the delusions of mental patients, yes.


I didn't read the thread, but still worth pointing out that most conservatives still aren't over the fact they can't persecute gay people anymore. This is basically a dog-whistle issue to cover the contempt they carry over losing to homosexuals so badly.
 

Roflmouth

Golden Member
Oct 5, 2015
1,059
61
46
I didn't read the thread,

No surprise there, illiterate.

but still worth pointing out that most conservatives still aren't over the fact they can't persecute gay people anymore.

The discussion isn't about gays, genius, it's about transgenders. Try not making an utter ass of yourself next time, ass.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
No surprise there, illiterate.

The discussion isn't about gays, genius, it's about transgenders. Try not making an utter ass of yourself next time, ass.

Sure, just like Trump's mexican rapists/ muslim terrorists slogans are just about immigration. Conservatives are so terrible at lying for how often they do it.