Chrysler should be allowed to fail.

[theeedude]

Unlike GM and Ford which are actually bringing solid competitive products to market, despite huge structural disadvantages, Chrysler is not even trying. Their products are bad to mediocre and give all American cars a bad name. Add to that the fact that they are privately owned, and were already bailed out in the past to me says they should be allowed to fail and liquidate, to make room for better run companies to operate. The few desirable products they have will be bought up in liquidation and continue on.

 

[Vette73]

That and it is not even a public company.

 

[Arkaign]

/agree

 

[amish]

100% agree. the only product i'm every excited about from their end is a Jeep. charger, challenger, magnum, sebring, etc. are nothing too exciting. the dodge ram is the only thing that they are really trying on. too bad that the F-150 and silverado bring extremely tough competition.

 

[nismotigerwvu]

Exactly, and once allowed to fail, someone else will buy up the desirable pieces at below market value.
Pretty much win-win.

 

[woodie1]

As you stated, "they are privately owned" so why should the taxpayer bail them out. Let the current owners sell whatever assets they can and burn the rest.

 

[theeedude]

Well, even publicly traded companies are ultimately owned by the private citizens who own stock, which is why being privately owned is low on my list of reasons why they should be allowed to fail. Mainly, they don't create much of anything worth preserving, and unlike Ford and GM which are experiencing a product turn around, Chrysler is not, and would be a bad investment for the taxpayer dollars. I also think Ford and GM bailout should focus on relieving them of their legacy retiree costs and related debts to put them on level playing field with the importers who don't have as many retirees and/or whose health care burdens are shouldered by governments in their home countries. I don't think they should continue to be punished for attempting to do the right thing and provide pensions for their employees when times were good, or for providing health benefits whose costs have escalated for reasons beyond GM's control, such as our generally screwed up overpriced health care system.

 

[woodie1]

OKAY! In the interest of full disclosure, I don't think any of them deserve to be bailed out. They dug themselves into this hole and there are other avenues out of it besides begging for taxpayer funds.

Here is a letter written by someone in management at one of their suppliers:

"As someone is who is ultimately going to be affected by the 'auto bailout', I am torn. Part of me would really like to see the financial system work and the Detroit 3 file for bankruptcy. I don't think they get it. I don't see them having the business plans or the leadership necessary to make the right decisions to sustain their businesses. I speak from experience, having spent almost my entire 10-year career in the auto industry in operational and financial roles. I'm currently controller of a tier-one parts supplier facility. I have taken part in closing three manufacturing facilities in my career and countless other plans to reconcile capacity or 'right size' operations. I have played a role in cutting thousands of jobs affecting hundreds of families, all while trying to save as many jobs as I could."

"It has been proven that the only sure thing in long-term investing is diversification, a concept the Detroit 3 have yet to catch onto, even though a company like GM has 8 brands. There is no diversification between a GMC Envoy and a Chevy Trailblazer, or a GMC Sierra and a Chevy Silverado. The Detroit 3 have failed to see the need to right size their own operations. They work off of a business model where they have to sell more and more vehicles in order to cover their overhead structure due to their previously negotiated contracts. Big problem--sales volumes aren't coming back, and they're losing more of their own market share."

"There is a sense of entitlement that resonates within the auto industry, in which a lot of people feel they are owed all of these luxurious benefits, and nothing can, or should, be taken away. The UAW contract is the most lucrative deal in America, one where a worker who is laid off retains 90% to 95% of his or her pay. Name another industry that has such rights? When customers cut back on production at my facility, and I lay off workers, those workers have to file for unemployment benefits which are usually much less than what they were previously paid."

EDIT for letter from Paul Fenner.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Product viability means nothing in terms of bailout justification. Nor does past coddling of employees. There is no justification for bailouts.
Let the market decide. It will right itself.
You want competitive companies, let them succeed on their own merits, by attracting customers.
I know it's hard to imagine such iconic integral auto manufacturers kicking the bucket, but hey, these things happen.
Failure may be painful to those involved, but it creates opportunity. New and surviving competitors will expand like crazy. Woot, more jobs.

Believe me, you won't want to purchase products from companies not allowed to fail. Pleasing consumers won't matter to a company getting cash infusions from federal government. Its livelihood doesn't depend on your purchase, just milking government.

 

[Chunkee]

LET THEM ALL FAIL... GREED, poor quality and uppity attitudes and just plain poor business decision making...I am glad the demand has gone down to such a level. Most of the dealers around here still act like it is a fucking privilege for you to walk on their lot. Fuckem...low ball you on trade, gouge you on shitty fees and make you painstakingly talk to sales people and the so called "manager"...

I used to sell cars, and I definitely know what goes on...after you purchase, now you are the slave of the asshats and booger pickers that attempt to service your car...i know that realm to...if you knew what they did.... screw em.... ALL...I hope no one buys a vehicle from any of them... it is time to learn that consumers have the power and we can change being victimized as well as having the fucking burden placed on us...they already get their money...

Bottom feeders.... /enough said.

Ask how many people like purchasing a vehicle? There is a reason why...

 

[pwnagesarus]

The only reason why I'd want Chrysler to stay alive is the 300.

 

[dug777]

Chapter 11 is a wonderful thing (and I mean it).

 

[DivideBYZero]

Let them all fail. Other companies will cherry pick the best bits and at the same time you get rid of the union issues(probably. I'm not a UAW expert. I'm not even American.).

 

[lurk3r]

Wow, so much hate for the industry that is the only real reason your country is a viable entity. If the big 3 fail your whole economy fails. I just don't get why its perfectly OK for the jackass bankers to pay themselves $19B in bonuses, but handing the auto industry $25B requires them to beg publicly in front of a commission.

1 in 10 jobs is directly related to the auto industry, and its a pretty signifigant part of the cash flow into everything else. When 10% of the jobs are gone, do you think those people are going to movies?

Enjoy the welfare lines when they fail.

 

[MBrown]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Unlike GM and Ford which are actually bringing solid competitive products to market, despite huge structural disadvantages, Chrysler is not even trying. Their products are bad to mediocre and give all American cars a bad name. Add to that the fact that they are privately owned, and were already bailed out in the past to me says they should be allowed to fail and liquidate, to make room for better run companies to operate. The few desirable products they have will be bought up in liquidation and continue on.

qft

Also I think GM needs some downsizing. I don't think there is a need for Buick, GMC Hummer, Pontiac or Saturn. All they need is Chevy and Cadillac. Look at Toyota. They have a regular brand and then a high end brand (they also have scion but...). Same thing with Honda and Nissan. Ford doesn't need Mercury. What is the point of Mercury? All they need is Ford and Lincoln. I guess GM and Ford can still keep their oversees companies but as far as the ones they sell in America, just make it Chevy-Cadillac and Ford-Lincoln.

And Ford needs to replace their current American lineup with there European lineup NOW. They have said that they are replacing the current American Focus with the Euro one by 2010 and they are bringing the Fiesta to the states, but I think they need to bring the Mondeo over as well as the Kuga.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: lurk3r
Wow, so much hate for the industry that is the only real reason your country is a viable entity. If the big 3 fail your whole economy fails. I just don't get why its perfectly OK for the jackass bankers to pay themselves $19B in bonuses, but handing the auto industry $25B requires them to beg publicly in front of a commission.

1 in 10 jobs is directly related to the auto industry, and its a pretty signifigant part of the cash flow into everything else. When 10% of the jobs are gone, do you think those people are going to movies?

Enjoy the welfare lines when they fail.

Wrong.

The private sector constitutes the bulk of the economy, with government activity accounting for 12.4% of GDP. The economy is postindustrial, with the service sector contributing 67.8% of GDP.[64] The leading business field by gross business receipts is wholesale and retail trade; by net income it is finance and insurance. The United States remains an industrial power, with chemical products the leading manufacturing field.

 

[Matilda]

Originally posted by: amish
100% agree. the only product i'm every excited about from their end is a Jeep. charger, challenger, magnum, sebring, etc. are nothing too exciting. the dodge ram is the only thing that they are really trying on. too bad that the F-150 and silverado bring extremely tough competition.

I did some work with the Challenger and the Ram - I don't think that's true. The Challenger was huge when it came out, and people really liked it, especially compared to the Mustang and the Camaro. That being said, everyone has their brand loyalties.

The F150 and the Silverado do bring tough competition, but I think the Ram is holding up. While I've seen many more commercials for the Ram and the F150 than the Silverado, I think the Ram Challenge is a much cooler way to show the potential of the truck than what the marketing for the F150 has been.

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: lurk3r
Wow, so much hate for the industry that is the only real reason your country is a viable entity. If the big 3 fail your whole economy fails. I just don't get why its perfectly OK for the jackass bankers to pay themselves $19B in bonuses, but handing the auto industry $25B requires them to beg publicly in front of a commission.

1 in 10 jobs is directly related to the auto industry, and its a pretty signifigant part of the cash flow into everything else. When 10% of the jobs are gone, do you think those people are going to movies?

Enjoy the welfare lines when they fail.

Wrong.

The private sector constitutes the bulk of the economy, with government activity accounting for 12.4% of GDP. The economy is postindustrial, with the service sector contributing 67.8% of GDP.[64] The leading business field by gross business receipts is wholesale and retail trade; by net income it is finance and insurance. The United States remains an industrial power, with chemical products the leading manufacturing field.

Someone from the UK had to tell you how much your conception of the U.S. is retarded.

Good job.


Anyway, I agree, Chrysler has made nothing but rubbish, frankly the Challenger wasn't made with such thought, it looks beautiful but is heavy as crap, and considering its a 6.1L V8 engine, thats a bit pathetic. As Jeremy Clarkson said "We can get that much out of a pencil sharpener."

The government bailed them out in 1979, 30 years later, same old, lame old.


GM and Ford both need consolidate, hopefully what we're seeing is a purging of the old. The Free Market is simply purging itself of bloat, but the government is not letting it. Obama might, we'll see what he does. Hopefully the UAW will be severely weakened or destroyed and let private unions take over.

 

[lurk3r]

Originally posted by: TehMac

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: lurk3r
Wow, so much hate for the industry that is the only real reason your country is a viable entity. If the big 3 fail your whole economy fails. I just don't get why its perfectly OK for the jackass bankers to pay themselves $19B in bonuses, but handing the auto industry $25B requires them to beg publicly in front of a commission.

1 in 10 jobs is directly related to the auto industry, and its a pretty signifigant part of the cash flow into everything else. When 10% of the jobs are gone, do you think those people are going to movies?

Enjoy the welfare lines when they fail.

Wrong.

The private sector constitutes the bulk of the economy, with government activity accounting for 12.4% of GDP. The economy is postindustrial, with the service sector contributing 67.8% of GDP.[64] The leading business field by gross business receipts is wholesale and retail trade; by net income it is finance and insurance. The United States remains an industrial power, with chemical products the leading manufacturing field.

Someone from the UK had to tell you how much your conception of the U.S. is retarded.

Good job.


Anyway, I agree, Chrysler has made nothing but rubbish, frankly the Challenger wasn't made with such thought, it looks beautiful but is heavy as crap, and considering its a 6.1L V8 engine, thats a bit pathetic. As Jeremy Clarkson said "We can get that much out of a pencil sharpener."

The government bailed them out in 1979, 30 years later, same old, lame old.

I purposly didnt mention the secondary industries, but thanks for bringing that up, what do you think uses all the chemicals (plastic, gas, cleaners etc), what's the biggest cost you have for insurance ... I left these out because they are not domestic related, and for the record I drive a Nissan, but with them pulling out of the autoshow they've gone off the list of cars I'm looking to replace it with.

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: lurk3r
I purposly didnt mention the secondary industries, but thanks for bringing that up, what do you think uses all the chemicals (plastic, gas, cleaners etc), what's the biggest cost you have for insurance ... I left these out because they are not domestic related, and for the record I drive a Nissan, but with them pulling out of the autoshow they've gone off the list of cars I'm looking to replace it with.

Ok, but your original comment was this:

Wow, so much hate for the industry that is the only real reason your country is a viable entity. If the big 3 fail your whole economy fails. I just don't get why its perfectly OK for the jackass bankers to pay themselves $19B in bonuses, but handing the auto industry $25B requires them to beg publicly in front of a commission. 1 in 10 jobs is directly related to the auto industry, and its a pretty significant part of the cash flow into everything else. When 10% of the jobs are gone, do you think those people are going to movies? Enjoy the welfare lines when they fail.

That is an incredibly ignorant statement, willful or not, for a number of reasons, one of them being that sure, the GDP of the U.S. will slip double digits percents, but that's assuming all three of them will fail.

Of course the jerkoff CEOs of the big three will make it seem like apocalypse if they fail, but not all three will fail, and if they declared bankruptcy, which Chrysler should have done 30 years ago, they could have thrown out the idiot management or get bought up by a more viable competitor.

 

[Squisher]

If all the domestics fail between 3 to 6 million jobs will be lost.

If all of them fail you will likely not see any Toyota's, Honda's, or Mazda's made in the US for quite a while. The suppliers will fail and half of the parts used to make cars in the US transplants come from sources in the US. All cars will have to be imported until there are sources found elsewhere or manufacturing facilities are obtained here. My guess would be that they'll start making cars in 6 months at limited capacity and will be back to speed within two years.

What happens when you have a shortage of something?


If the domestics fail their pensions will be picked up by federal programs to do so to the tune of $150-200 billion dollars of taxpayer money.


Yeah, fuckem1111.

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: Squisher
If all the domestics fail between 3 to 6 million jobs will be lost.

If all of them fail you will likely not see any Toyota's, Honda's, or Mazda's made in the US for quite a while. The suppliers will fail and half of the parts used to make cars in the US transplants come from sources in the US. All cars will have to be imported until there are sources found elsewhere or manufacturing facilities are obtained here. My guess would be that they'll start making cars in 6 months at limited capacity and will be back to speed within two years.

What happens when you have a shortage of something?


If the domestics fail their pensions will be picked up by federal programs to do so to the tune of $150-200 billion dollars of taxpayer money.


Yeah, fuckem1111.

Here's a hint: Toyota, BMW, Honda, etc. all have manufacturing plants in the United States to escape tariffs.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

So it's ok to fail Chrysler but not Ford and GM. It's all or none.

 

[TehMac]

Who says anything about failing? It's only after they declare bankruptcy and failure to get their act together do they fail/get bought up. You guys have this ridiculous notion that all the people in these companies get sucked into these horrific apocalyptic tornado of horror and famine.

It's not good, but it's a lot better than it's been made out to be.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: TehMac

Originally posted by: Squisher
If all the domestics fail between 3 to 6 million jobs will be lost.

If all of them fail you will likely not see any Toyota's, Honda's, or Mazda's made in the US for quite a while. The suppliers will fail and half of the parts used to make cars in the US transplants come from sources in the US. All cars will have to be imported until there are sources found elsewhere or manufacturing facilities are obtained here. My guess would be that they'll start making cars in 6 months at limited capacity and will be back to speed within two years.

What happens when you have a shortage of something?


If the domestics fail their pensions will be picked up by federal programs to do so to the tune of $150-200 billion dollars of taxpayer money.


Yeah, fuckem1111.

Here's a hint: Toyota, BMW, Honda, etc. all have manufacturing plants in the United States to escape tariffs.

Did you read what he said?